I get a LOT of questions from my readers about basic shower construction. I understand that my readers don’t consider this stuff basic and there’s no problem with that. The problem is that I end up answering the same questions over and over and over… So, to save what very little is left of my sanity (which is a number roughly equivalent to absolute zero) I will cover some basic things here so I can simply reply ‘read this’.
If you’ve been channeled to this page by one of my smart-ass comments please take no offense to it, I’m here to help. Please understand that I currently have over 12,000 comments (questions) on this site (seriously) which I’ve answered – every one of them. I’m just trying to make your life (mine) easier. I will continue to answer every question I’m asked, I’m just super cool like that. 
If, after reading through this, you still have questions feel free to ask them in the comments below.
You can also download my shower waterproofing manual which should answer a lot of questions and cover basic techniques and methods you may be confused about. Go ahead, it’s free. So without further ado (doesn’t even look like a word, does it?) let’s get on with it. (For all my readers who feel the need to correct me: I KNOW it’s actually ‘adieu’ – I was being facetious. Thanks. 
)
Leaks
First and foremost – tile is not waterproof. Grout is not waterproof. Adding sealer to your tile or stone will not make it waterproof. Your shower should be completely waterproof before a box of tile is even opened! No matter which waterproofing method you choose, proper substrate preparation is the only thing that will make your shower waterproof.
If you have a leak in your shower – stop using it immediately if at all possible. If that is not possible (it’s your only shower) have the shower repaired – immediately. If you see water leaking it is likely not nearly as much water as you don’t see leaking into your wall cavity and structural framing. By the time you ‘see’ most leaks the framing is normally already considerably compromised.
No, there is nothing you can put over your tile to make your shower waterproof if you have a leak – not even sealer. A tile or stone sealer is made to make your tile and grout stain-resistant, not waterproof. It does this by sealing the pores of the tile and stone to slow (NOT STOP) the absorption of liquid and prevent staining. It only means you have more time to clean up the spilled red wine cherry kool-aid before it stains anything.
Substrates
Drywall is not an acceptable substrate for your shower unless you are using Schluter Kerdi waterproofing membrane – that’s it. Cement backerboards are the standard and there are also other products such as waterproofed, gypsum based boards like Denshield and waterproofed, foam-based sheets like wedi or kerdi board.
Cement backerboards are not waterproof. They are water stable, which simply means that they will not swell or disintegrate when exposed to moisture or water – they won’t change size. But they are just like your driveway, they will soak in water, hold water, and dry out, just like your driveway when it rains. If using backerboards there needs to be a waterproof membrane utilized as well.
Membranes
If you are using a topical waterproofing membrane such as a liquid like redgard or hydroban, or a sheet like kerdi, do not use a moisture or vapor barrier behind your substrate. If you have a vapor or moisture barrier behind your substrate do not use a topical membrane on the front of it. This combination creates two waterproof barriers with your substrate sandwiched between them. any vapor or moisture trapped between them has absolutely no way to dissipate. This is lovingly referred to as a ‘mold sandwich’. It is not tasty. Use either a moisture or vapor barrier behind your substrate or a topical membrane on the face of it. One or the other – never both.
With that said, if you want to use a topical liquid such as redgard on the seams of your backerboard, after you tape and mud them, you can do so without problems. If your moisture barrier and backerboards are properly installed there is no real reason to do so – but if it will help you sleep at night go ahead and do it.
If you are using a topical membrane and you have an exterior wall with either plastic facing or kraft paper facing you need to cut slits into that facing before installing your substrate. If you do not it will create the aforementioned mold sandwich. Give moisture or vapor somewhere to dissipate.
Shower-tub transitions
There should be a gap between your tub or acrylic shower base and the bottom of your backerboard. If you are using a traditional barrier waterproofing method you do not need to do anything with this gap. Do not fill it with silicone! This will trap moisture running down your barrier and it will have nowhere to go. If you are using a topical method you can fill it with silicone if you want. If you are using liquid you should fill it with silicone. This creates a waterproof plane between your membrane and the tub or base so water or moisture ends up in the drain rather than in your wall.
When you tile you can tile right over that gap. You should not fill this gap with thinset behind the tile – it will crack due to movement. Your wall and tub or base will expand and contract at different rates – it will crack any cement-based product you place between the two. This includes thinset as well as grout. You do not need a solid backing behind your tile over this gap – it should be less than 1″ wide. You shouldn’t normally be walking on that tile in that particular spot. Yes, it can just hang there.
Grout
If your grout is cracking it is due to movement 99.9% of the time. Type ‘cracking’ into the search box up there and you’ll find in-depth explanations for your viewing pleasure.
If you have white, or lighter than normal grout when you’re finished grouting it may be efflorescence. This is mainly due to minerals in the water being left on the surface of the grout when the water evaporates. It is usually indicative of either incorrectly mixed grout or using too much water while cleaning the grout – not wringing out your sponge enough. This is normally only on the surface of your grout. Scratch the very top layer of your grout in an inconspicuous spot with your fingernail. If you have the correct, or at least a darker, color beneath the surface that is the likely cause. The easiest, quickest fix, provided it is only the very top layer, is to get some drywall sanding sponges and go over the grout lines very lightly. Just like burnt toast – scrape it to the color you like.
Corners and changes-of-plane
Caulk.
Disagree with me?
Like any other website I get my fair share of people who disagree with my methods or techniques – it really doesn’t bother me. I am more than willing to have a civilized, intelligent conversation about anything tile related. If, however, you simply attack me personally and act like an uncivilized ass I will call you on it – and not in a nice way. I write this blog in a particular manner, it does not mean that I take my profession lightly – I most certainly do not. If I wanted to be a pompous bastard I currently have 19 letters I can place after my name – all tile related. But I’m not a pompous bastard – you can just call me Roger.
If you are a contractor with a customer who has come here for information and I’ve told them you’re wrong – realize that the extent of my knowledge of that particular project is limited to what I’m told by your customer. It does not mean that I am ‘out to get you’ or anything of the sort. I normally limit my replies to those situations by stating the current TCNA and/or ANSI standards pertaining to what I’m told. If you disagree – please let me know in a civil manner, If you’re correct I’ll back it up – I do this everyday, too! If you’re an asshole about it expect the same in return (It’s the comment by ‘Kanela’ with the bold print before it) – and please have a thesaurus handy to interpret my reply – I’m a very well educated asshole.
That’s it for now. I will likely add to this post on a regular basis. If there is anything I’ve caused confusion with please, for the love of God, let me know. I can change this page since, you know, it’s my website and all. If you have any questions at all please ask them below – I’ll answer, really.
Am I able to use my basement foundation floor as my shower pan?can I thinset more on the outskirts to build up for a slight pitch for drainage.?or is there another way besides pouring a mud floor?
Hi Nate,
Sorry for the delay – you got thrown in the spam folder. Who’d you piss off?
There is no approved alternative other than a mud floor, unless you use one of the pre-formed shower pans. A mud deck can be 3/4″ thick if you’re concerned about height, but you still need to have a mud bed in there. Your basement floor isn’t made for a shower pan.
Roger, Thanks for the info on sealers and I have read the post and understand it a lot better. You mentioned Porcelain does not need to be sealed but is there any benefits to sealing it? or just wasting my time and money? Also when preparing the floor sub straight for tile should I use tar paper before the thinset as with the mud deck in the shower? I haven’t seen anything about using it so I would guess not.
I can think of arguments for Yes and NO, since I am arguing with myself the best I can be is half right or worse yet just plain wrong. 
Hey GEM,
Porcelain will benefit from sealer. It still has an absorption rate, although less than other types of tile. No tar paper beneath the thinset.
Roger, the porcelain tile I have has wavy edges instead of being straight. being a novice in this I see issues with getting my lines straight. The box I am looking at looks like the patten of the edges are the same on each edge but each edge is different and that won’t line up, what do you suggest in order to get everything straight and square? I think normal spacers could vary the grout line. Also my wife likes the look of the stone floor but in looking into this type of floor I was told that I need to seal this type of tile or natural stone prior to installation and again after installation and every year there after is this true? which makes me wonder do I need to seal the porcelain tile and if so how often do I need to do it? I have seen the commercials on TV where they come and seal your tile for life and is this just propaganda and is it really necessary?
Hi GEM,
With the wavy edges if you keep the corners consistent then it will be uniform. I know – it doesn’t look like it, but it’s true.
If you snap chalk lines or draw lines on your floor in each direction the width of two tiles plus your desired grout line you can center four tiles in each square to keep the floor consistent.
Sealers: PROPAGANDA! Sealers are used in different manners with different products, it all depends on the product (and to a lesser extent – the installation) you are installing. Porcelain tile does not need to be sealed. Most glazed ceramic tile does not need to be sealed. Most natural stones need to be sealed. Only a very tiny fraction of natural stones (and some specialty tiles) NEED to be sealed before installation. If you are installing a porous natural stone and using a darker or contrasting grout, it should be sealed before grouting. Most tile and natural stone installations can be sealed after they are installed and grouted.
The only two things that ‘wear out’ or compromise sealer are abrasion and/or acids (like lemon juice on your granite countertop). For your purposes it is only abrasion. However, if using an impregnating sealer abrasion will NEVER remove enough of that sealer to justify resealing it every year – unless you are installing it in a locker room. For most residential applications, with a good sealer, you may need to reseal it after ten years, maybe.
Sealer is a hugely misunderstood and misused product in this industry. I guess it’s about time I address that with a few posts. I’ll get a basic one up today so keep an eye out for it. If you want to use natural stone go ahead. It is more maintenance, and there are certain things to keep in mind with it – it isn’t as durable out of the box as a ceramic or porcelain for instance. And it does require more maintenance, but constant sealing is not part of that.
Hi Roger,
How would you find a person who does the schluter shower install in the eastern mass. area? Great site. Thank you.
Paul M.
Hi Paul,
I know Salvatore in Medford. He owns Elite Tile Company, you can contact him at saldibs@elitetileco.com. His number is (or was last year, anyway) (978) 685-7757. Don’t know how close that is to you, but if it isn’t he can likely let you know who is.
We just had our shower tiled. The plumber came and needed to cut a tile out (I’m not sure why) and he cut the entire rectangle of tile all the way to the insulation (through the layers of protection from water damage). He says our contractor can fix it (it is directly under the on/off faucet which is under the shower head). How can they fix this properly without us having water leaking in the future? And how will I know if we are having water leaking into the wall?
Thank you for your help.
Hi Elaine,
Any cutout can be repaired by someone who knows how to properly seal it. The particular will depend on the waterproofing you have installed. You didn’t mention the type of waterproofing you have. If properly sealed you don’t have to worry about water leaking into the wall. It is all dependent on the skill of the person repairing the wall.
Dear Floor Elf,
I recently completed a tile floor and am in the process of tiling a shower surround. Due to a pregnant wife who needed a toilet to puke in, and against my better judgement, I proceeded to tile the floor first. I put plastic down to cover the new tile but through the course of tiling the shower it tore and some modified thinset got onto a few tiles and even though I cleaned it off, they now seem to be etched a bit lighter. The floor tiles are porcelain with a dark wood grain finish. Any chance there is a way to bring the original finish of the tile, or am I SOL?
Hey Jeremy,
It’s very difficult to actually etch porcelain tile, and impossible to do it with thinset. Try buffing out the spot with rubbing compound – yes, the stuff you use on cars. That should take care of it.
Hi. Our house is on a concrete slab. I’ve been getting a little nervous because we have a spongy spot on our shower floor. I noticed it a little a few months ago but it is covering a bigger area now. I have a hard time understanding why there could be a soft spot when there is concrete underneath, but that is why I am hoping you can help me and advise what I should do. Worried about it in the night so couldn’t sleep and that is what has brought me to the good ole computer. Any advise to get me on the right track? Thank you very much. Blanche
Hi Blanche,
If the installer used a mastic it may have re-emulsified and become soft. The correct setting material in shower floors is thinset, which cures as hard as concrete. Can you remove one or two tiles and see if you maybe have a material beneath them that is white and may be squishy in spots? It may look like half-cured elmer’s glue.
Now that the drain is taken care off. Have you ever heard of a product called
Propanel by Finpan It is a waterppoof panel for showers ? What’s your opinion ? Also I used a pvc trim called Versatex on the outside of my house, If I build a shower shampoo cubby with it will thin set stick to it for tiles ? Thanks, betty
I’ve heard of propanel and heard that it’s a good product. I’ve never personally used it. I have no idea what versatex is but if it’s a pvc-based product not specifically manufactured for showers then it’s highly doubtful thinset will bond to it.
versatex is a solid pvc made into different sizes and styles of molding and sheets. It is used to trim around windows,doors,eves just about anywhere. No painting just wash with mild soap. We put James Hardie lap siding on the house and trimmed with the versatex so the outside would be easier to take care of. We have versatex left over so I am just trying to find a use for it. I am going to try the propanel. Menards carries them and it is Cheaper then the schulter brand shower board. Also much lighter weight then cement board plus it is waterproof so that eliminates the waterproofing step. Almost twice the cost of Cement board but easier to use.
Well the shower is progressing, I have a question I didn’t even think of when I bought the Glass Trim Tiles. I am using a wet saw for the regular ceramic tiles but how do I cut the Glass trim tiles ? They are thin strips on a 12×12 mat. I am using 3 lines around the shower and room. I don’t know how to cut them when I come to corners. Help. Thanks, Betty
Glass tile can be cut with the wet saw. Just go a little slower.
Hi Roger,
Need your help please ! Doing a walk in shower in basement. We cut new drains in the cement floor and filled in with concrete .All installed by plumber. He then installed a rubber sheet to floor and 1ft up studs. Then he installed the drain over the rubber membrane. However, going over concrete shouldn’t the rubber membrane have had concrete slope done under it ? before the membrane ? I then installed hardi to walls and bench . So now I have all the walls done and a red rubber floor done. I bought the quick pitch standard install kit to go over the rubber membrane. Do you think I will be ok ? Help !
I am just worried about water getting through the concrete that is on top of liner. Is there anyway to seal the concrete floor before laying tile ? should I also use the redguard product over the hardi board ? All thats behing the hardi is studs and some insulation on side wall . thanks
Water will get through the deck mud (concrete) on top of the liner, that’s completely normal. If it wasn’t you wouldn’t need the liner. Anything you seal the deck mud with will not allow the tile to properly bond. If you do not have waterproofing behind your backer then yes, you need some sort of membrane such as redgard on the face of it.
Hey Steve,
If there is no pre-slope beneath the shower floor then it is build incorrectly. The quick pitch install kits are made for your pre-slope, the top slope will be a uniform thickness following the slope created by the pre-slope. You need to remove the hardi on the walls, remove the liner and install a slope beneath it.
ouch my plumber is not my favorite guy right now
Is this an option so i dont have to remove the hardi from walls.All my seams have thinset already on them. . can i cut the liner out, install sloped mud bed ,then install kerdi to Floor and walls ?
Or cut liner out and install sloped concrete floor with quick pitch and the redguard everything. ?? Doesnt thinset for tile stick to redguard and kerdi? i see some on here put kerdi on floor then tile over?
Was hoping not to have to take hardi off walls. HELP ! How about the lacticrete ? now im grasping for straws
also below you responded to Betty, that basement floor does not need waterproofing ? can you explain.
ps, Im in MD what time can you be here to get here to get this done .
Hi Roger ,
Please disregard the Betty question . Thanks for your reply. i really don’t want to demo this 6×3.5 ft shower after its this close. i have searched your site and read 1000 different ideas. can i just cut the liner out all along floor {to prevent having 2 waterproof barriers} and the use pre pitch . then install kerdi or redguard over the pre pitch on floor. then install kerdi or redguard to all walls. then do the quick pitch and tile ? PS ,How much is it gonna cost to get you here
sent you a pic from steve thanks
Yes, but the quick pitch should only be used once. When using a topical membrane like redgard or kerdi you just do one slope, install the membrane, then install the tile right to the membrane.
It’s not cost – it’s time. Middle of July is my first open date.
You can cut out the liner and use either redgard or kerdi on everything. Either one will work fine.
Betty was speaking about her bathroom floor, not the floor of her shower.
I’ll check flights and let you know what time I can be there, I have open time in July.
I’m not a cheap date, though.
Hi Roger ,
now I am really confused . Are you saying dont use the pre-pitch ? just cut out liner and do quick pitch then go over with redguard, and then tile? .What will my drain flange seal to ?my SUBFLOOR IS CONCRETE and not level or pre pitched. will regular thinset work on the redguard for floor and wall tiles? This video made sense to me . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNfxRGhIq9s. Seems i would need to do the pre pitch first then install weep hole protector and bolt drain flange. then do the quick pitch . Now i am lost. Sorry I am a siding and window contractor. Your help is greatly appreciated !
1.pre pitch
2. red guard
3.bolt flange.
4.weep hole protector
5 install quick pitch
6. install mud
7. tile.
IS this wrong ? seems to be exactly my situation. I sent a pic. my shower is almost exact as video. thanks again .
this is what seems to be right from video. ?
We are talking about two different drains. With a three piece clamping drain then your method is one of two that is correct. With a topical drain a second mud bed is not needed.
Okay, the pre-pitch system has two different plastic guide sticks. One sloped, that’s for the pre-slope, and one with a universal thickness, that’s for the top mud bed. When people use the float systems not all of them have the uniform ones and they want to use sloped ones on the upper mud deck as well, which would double your slope. You can use both just fine, provided the top mud bed is uniform. You do not NEED to use a double mud bed if you use a topical drain. Topical drains do not have weep holes and open at a single plane on top of the mud bed. If you are using the three piece clamping drain like that video then you can do a double layer mud bed like that. I’m simply stating it’s not necessary, but it is an approve method.
NOTICE! The video stated that you may need three coats to achieve the 1 mil thickness requirement – the thickness requirement for redgard on a shower floor is 40 MILS. 1 millimeter = about 40 mils, so I’m certain he meant to say 1 millimeter thickness rather than 1 mil thickness. Very important difference, just wanted to make sure you were aware of that.
If you do not have a topical drain then everything else in that video is correct. It’s actually a very good video! Those are hard to find.
Thanks, i do have the same drain that’s in video. However i just checked and the quick pitch does have sloped tracks .They don’t have a universal thickness track. i guess i will be fine ,i have the same kit from video. Maybe the pre pitch is not as big as a slope as quick pitch.I hate all these “gray” areas with things. So how many coats should i put on floor? 2or 3 ? also what thinset should i use on walls over the redguard for tile ? can i use same mix for floor tile on 2nd mud bed ? If you ever need siding or window help thats my expertise . thanks
The video showed universal thickness on the strips he was using for the top mud deck. I dunno what the hell they’re doing over there.
The pre-slope needs to be 1/4″ per foot, so if those sticks are sloped smaller than that they won’t work right.
The floor should be a minimum of about 40 mils, that is the thickness of a credit card. The number of layers will vary depending on how thick you put it on. If you use the notched side of a 1/4″ x 1/4″ v-notch trowel to install the first layer (after burning it into the mud with the flat side), let it cure with the ridges, then fill in between the ridges with the flat side of the trowel for your second layer it will be the proper thickness.
Any good modified thinset will work fine with redgard – walls and floors. Versabond works well if that’s what you have available from HD.
Hi Roger ,
Won’t Pre-Pitch and Quick Pitch together double the pitch to ½ inch?
I found this to explain using both pre and quick pitch ,I am sure this will come up again. Thanks for all your help. If you ever in MD The bar is always open
No. The Quick Pitch Center Ring rests on top of the flange bolts of the drain which raises the system up to allow for water to flow to the weep holes and compensate for the Pre-Pitch eliminating the doubling of the pitch.
Soon as i get this done its on to the tile
Ah, gotcha. Thanks for that, it makes sense now (to all of us schlubs who don’t use that stuff
).
ok ,well i ripped out the liner ,put in pre pitch ,now i am red guarding everything. of course the plumber put the drain to low. so i am rigging that with a rubber gasket then a pc of mesh. then i will redguard over floor. then install bolt flange, then weep hole protector then quick pitch.
this has turned into fun
after all that rambling on. a few questions
1. should i tile shower floor 1st or walls 1st ?
2. what size notched trowel for floor and walls ? using 12×12 for walls and prob the little 12×12 sheet tile for floor.
3.i read somewhere the notch trowel lines should
run straight not swirled ? vertical or horizontal for walls? what way makes tile stay in place better on walls
4. can i just use the thinset from the box stores over the redguard ?
5. thanks so much, i may be done by july when you are available.
Hey Steve,
1. I normally tile the floor first, but it really makes no difference.
2. I use a 5/16″ trowel for most of my tile.
3. Makes no difference at all which direction. The reason for running it straight is that the swirls and circles will trap air beneath the tile, straight lines allow the air to escape.
4. Yes, the modified.
5. Let me know now, it fills up quick.
Hi Roger, I will do the floor 1st in shower
questions.
when i do the wall tile, should i run the tile straight in line so drout lines line up. or stagger the rows so grout lines line up every other row ? which do you prefer.
also for shower walls and floors do i use unsanded grout or sanded?
for basement floor which grout also? sanded or un sanded ?
thank you sir
Whichever design you think looks best is the right one. I like them both, the running bond (brick) pattern looks good if you have the right tile.
If your grout lines are 1/8″ or larger use sanded, if they are smaller use unsanded. Same for all tile.
opps forgot, i am using porcelan for basement floor, what should i use for shower and bathroom walls and floors. is there a preference ? porcelan stone ceramic?
Depends on what look you want, it’s all a matter of personal choice. Porcelain will be the easiest to take care of, stone requires the most maintenance.
Hi Roger, ok i use modified thinset for shower floors and walls.
what thinset do i use for bathroom floor and basement floor?
i am going over tile that was done 5 years ago over cement floor in basement. i did the water test and yes it absorbs water ,so im good to go over.
You need to use a thinset approved for use over existing tile. Mapei ultraflex 3 is one, there are others.
hi roger,
ok so modified thinset for shower walls and floor over the redguard.
Do i use fortified thinset for basement floor? i am going over existing tile. I did the water test you told me dump a cup of water in center of a tile . if it absorbs you sais i was good to go. Just need to know what type of thinset for basement floor
thanks
Hey Steve,
You need to use a thinset approved for use over existing tile. Mapei ultraflex 3 is one, there are others.
Hi again Roger,
The outside wall of my walk in shower is drywall green board . can i tile over this ? its a 4×6 wall outside the shower in bathroom. will thinset work on the green board? thanks
Hey Steve,
Yes, to both questions.
Hi again Roger,
So I have already layed the 3×3 shower floor tile,and started on main basement floor. My shower wall tile is on backorder. Is it ok to finish the basement floor entirely { 2-3 weeks at my pace| then just grout it all ? Is it ok to walk on them for a few weeks before i grout? Thank you as always.
Hey Steve,
Yes to both.
hi Roger, do i need to seal my grout in shower and basement floor? i used mapei ultra color plus grout. the guy at supply house said no need to seal it .
also i ran my bathroom floor ,now doing outside shower wall. will it look ok if grout lines dont match up with floor? i want a factory edge where shower wall ends. thanks, steve
Hi Steve,
According to mapei the ultra color plus has ‘DropEffect’ technology which they say does not require sealing. I haven’t used it, so I have no idea how effective it is. Yes, it will be fine if your grout lines don’t match on different planes.
Forgot 1 question. Where my basement floor meets the bathroom floor . I used 2 different floor tile colors for each room. i made the transition exactly in the middle of door jamb using pocket doors. I ended up with a 1/2 grout line. will i be ok grouting that size ? i bought a pc of shluter trim shaped like a T . But it doesnt sit perfect. was hoping just to grout it. thanks again
Yes, you can grout that. Although it’s gonna look like crap.
Roger, thanks for the awesome site and advice. I bought the Laticrete bonded tile-in drain flange for my shower project, with 3/8″ thick tiles. I am about to pour the mud deck.
The problem is that the center if the drain is too thick, the tile insert is too high. I’m looking like I have to add 3/4″ of concrete under the rest of my tiles, on top of the sloped pan to even it out. How do you recommend doing this? I can pour the shower pan thicker initially, leaving a divot in the center, like what you recommend when using a traditional drain with a liquid membrane method. Or pour the pan at normal height (starting level with the flange), waterproof, then add more concrete on top of the membrane?
I liked the idea of a “hidden” drain, but if it’s not going to work, will need to get a steel grated one instead which is the same thickness as the tile.
Thanks!
Hey Jason,
Do you have the round one? (I’m assuming so). It would be better to indent the drain into the mud bed then waterproof. You can do it either way but installing an additional layer above your topical waterpoofing will create a layer that will be saturated.
I know it doesn’t help you, but laticrete is working on the height of those tile-in drains. They received an earful from myself as well as many other contractors about the height issue. It’s even worse with the standard 1/4″ thick mosaics.
Roger,
Great web site. With your information, I enlarged and completely rebuilt our home shower. New subfloor, kerdi pan, drain, and membrane, floor to ceiling tile, accent strip, everything but a TV and a beer fridge. The good news, the wife is very happy with the results. The bad news, construction really cuts into skiing time.
Thanks again.
Bean
Sweet sight. Opening monologue is great and pretty hilarious. Keep up the superb work!
Sorry to bother you again, but which is better Redgard or Schluter Kerdi ?For the shower and for the Basement floor. Thanks again.
You’re not bothering me.
I prefer kerdi, but they are both very good products. The basement floor does not need waterproofing, although you can use redgard on it if you want to. If you simply want a membrane beneath your floor tile you want Ditra, it’s made by the same company that makes kerdi.
I talked to the Schluter People and they said I could not use the Ditra on the floor cause I am doing the Pebble on mesh Tiles in a path from the shower to the sink. ( That’s what my granddaughter wants). What thin set do you think would work for the Pebble tiles on a bare concrete basement floor ? I am also using 6×6 travertine around the pebbles to the walls. Thanks again. Betty
Oh, didn’t think about the pebbles, sorry. A good modified thinset will work. Something like mapei ultraflex 2 or customs marble and granite mortar.
Do I need to put a waterproof liner between the basement concrete floor and a acrylic shower pan ? Also I keep reading about the shower walls. Which is best. Waterproof under cement board or waterproof over the cement board?
Hi Betty,
Nope, no need for waterproofing there. Waterproof over the cement board is a better method.
Thanks for your help. Now all I have to figure out is how to remove the old drain that is leaded in and replace it with pvc…….. Just to let you know the next person “chris” You sent her reply to my email.
He Betty,
When you left your comment you likely checked the box to receive follow-up emails about comments left on the same post. If you get another and don’t want them just click on the unsubscribe link at the bottom of the email. You can do that with any emails you receive from my site, they all include an unsubscribe link.
Thanks, Now I have a hard question. The shower pan we removed was very thick. The shower pan we are replacing it with has a thin base. Therefore the Drain in too high and can’t be lowered. Can I place 1 or 2 layers of Hardie 1/2 board under the new pan to raise it up to the drain level ? Any other ideas ? Can’t do a mud bed. Big hole around the pipes. Redoing this bath has sure turned into a lot of problems. Thanks for your help. Betty
A mud bed is the only option over concrete to raise the shower pan. There is always normally a big hole around the pipes, it gets filled in with deck mud. You can cut the pipe down to the level you need it, which is normally a better option. Home Depot and places like that carry an inside pipe cutter, just tell them what you need to do. You can not install cement backerboard onto concrete.
Why won’t the backer board work ?
Isn’t your subfloor concrete? There is no way to reliable bond or fasten it down which will last long term. Then you have the issue of a space beneath your pan which would need to be covered with something. Why are you trying to build a shower around the height of the drain rather than constructing the drain to fit the shower?
The house is older, The pipe leading out of the house to the sewer system is in the concrete. The pea trap and drain connection is exposed but because of the exit pipe the pea trap and drain can’t go any lower. If I had known all this I would never have removed the old pan. I would have repaired the walls and called it good but now we have to do something. I was trying to build a platform of some sort for the shower pan. I don’t know what else we can do to make this work . I thought I could use thin set to hold the cement board in place.
You can lay down a mud bed and place the pan on top of that. Tile can be bonded to the small portion of it that sticks up above the bathroom floor, beneath the front of the shower pan. If you use deck mud you can build it as high as you need to. It doesn’t need to be perfect, but it will last and be stable enough for your shower pan.
worked all day, got the leaded pea trap out of the concrete floor. We mat not have a height problem after all… I will let you know. Thanks for putting up with me. Betty
Oh, good! Let me know how it goes. I answer questions in the order I get ’em, so I just saw this one.
Wow wish i found your site sooner :-) I’m doing a traditional shower but I had a little trouble. I put roofing felt around the framing about 7/8th up the wall then a pre sloped mortar bed to the bottom of my drain. Next I put in an oatey pan liner and wonderboard. When I poured my final pan I used the pre mixed mortar from the depot (green label type S) and it ended up cracking. Also I used wrapped some wire mesh up and over my curb (also covered by pan liner) and stappled it to the outside of the curb. This also cracked. The pan and the curb both have a hollow sound. I was going to tear out the final pan and the curb and re pour them. My question is should I use the 5 to 1 mix that your book recommends on the curb as well as the pan? Thanks!!
Hey Chris,
Yes you should use the 5 to 1 mix. Type S is not a pre-mixed deck mud, it’s for structural building, it doesn’t have as much sand in it, that’s why it cracked. For the curb just add 1 part masonry lime.
So my next question is about the joints and inside corners. I’m doing a traditional type shower. Do I need to silicone the inside corners of 1. my wonderboard (I don’t have enough room to sqeeze in mortar and tape) and 2. my tile after I finish? By the way your site is so cool. It’s hard to find a craftsman who takes the time to help DIYers and other craftsman the tricks of the trade so thanks a bunch!
You still need to tape and mud the corners of the backer. You do not need thinset ‘in’ the corner, between the sheets, but you do need the tape there, with thinset, to create the tie-in.
All changes of plane in your finished tile installation need to be siliconed.
I purchased a four year old house in 2003 in Broward County, Florida. Recently a few tiles near the floor in the shower have cracked and upon investigating I realized that there is not any Sheet rock of any kind behind the tiles. Don’t state and local codes require this and can I go to the original builder to complain?
Thank you,
Hi Denise
I’m not too sure what you are explaining to me. Are the tiles on the wall or the floor? I’m assuming on the wall near the floor, right? So what are the tiles bonded to? They have to be stuck to something. It SHOULD NOT be sheet rock. It should likely be cement backerboard. Local codes vary wildly not just throughout the country, but even from county to county. I have absolutely no idea what your local codes dictate, I do know it wouldn’t be sheetrock. Yes, you should be able to go to the original builder, although I also don’t know how long he would be responsible for the warranty in your county either. By law it’s ten years here, but only five if you go 50 miles south of here. I would call your local building department, they should be able to give you information on your particular code requirements.
Hello Roger,
My kids shower was leaking thru cracked grout into my closet. Its an old house and the tile was installed over regular sheetrock. I’ve torn everything out and am down to the studs. You name several methods…what is the best board to put under my tile? and do i silicone all the seams?
Hi Beth,
Yes, silicone all seams. The best method for your shower is based on several factors, all of which are covered in my free waterproofing manual. I wrote it specifically to help you figure out which method is best for your shower.
You can find it here: Free shower waterproofing manual
I’m getting ready to tile my shower wall that has 100 pipes sticking out of it that I have to tile around. Ok not 100 but 10. There are 4 body sprayers, 3 on/off valves, 1 hot/cold mixing valve, 1 rain head and 1hand held body sprayer. The rain head and hand held body sprayers have a standard 1/2″ pipe sticking out so those are easy to just drill with a diamond bit but the others are around 2 3/8″ (there abouts) for the on/off valves, 3″ for body sprayers and probably 4″ or 5″ for temp mixer. How do I cut all these larger size holes? I’m thinking I would need to use the 1/2″ drill bit and then use nippers to expand the hole. Is there an easier way or a good pair of nippers I should use? I’m all about making the work easy if it means buying a special tool.
By the way Merry Christmas….
Hey Brian,
You can use a roto-zip with the large diamond tile bit. Drill out the holes with the 1/2″ then take the roto-zip to it. It works very well. Nippers work very well, too. They do require skill and patience but are invaluable tools. If you go that route get a pair of ‘parrot beak’ nippers, it’ll make it easier to get the angle correct.
Wow, I’m trying to visualize that shower. Sounds like you could have parties in there.
I read your post on how to tile ceilings and you are the “goods” . I don’t tile for a living ” retired firefighter ” and just do work for myself and family ,close friends for Beer > Nice to see someone like yourself offering free advise in a easy to understand and lighthearted humor .Wether politicaly correct or not Merry Christmas and thanks again . Len
Len, I too am an avid fan here. Follow his advice! I am currently putting up 12×12 travertine tile on the ceiling, and not ONCE have I have any tile pull away or fall! This elf guy knows his stuff!
Hi Len,
You can always wish an elf merry christmas. I don’t give a shit who it offends.
Merry Christmas to you too!
I had a natural stone wall installed inmy shower. The tiles are very pourous and the crevices literally go all the way through to the other side of the tile. My shower has been leaking since the installation and I found out today that water is seeping behind some of the lower tiles. Is there a topical sealer that you can recommend to fill the holes and stop the leak?
Hi Robin,
There is no product available which will stop water from penetrating your tile or grout. Water will get behind your tile and grout. It’s completely normal, crevices or not, and doesn’t hurt anything. PROVIDED! that your shower was properly constructed and is waterproof. If your shower has been leaking then your shower is not waterproof, it is a problem with the substrate – not with the tile.
I began this post with basic information about leaks. It’s the first issue I addressed. It’s right up there and says the same thing I just told you. If your shower is leaking it’s not your tile, it’s your substrate – and there’s nothing you can put over your tile to make it waterproof.
Another quick question: I don’t like the taste of alcohol, so how should I make it through this remodel of my bathroom? Huffing redguard?
Take a break for about a year or so and develop your palette for the finer microbrews available.
Thx Roger. I will leave it conventionally waterproofed then. I have a niche and assume it can be redguarded though. I screwed up and siliconed ALL the seams in the hardi. Does this need to be pulled out, or just the surface? Also there is a gap of about 1/2″ – 1/4″ between the hardi and the mud bed. What do I do there? Is the proverbial pooch impregnated? Thanks !
Oh, and I’m also building a cinder-block and mud bench in one corner. Do I need to redgard below it and on the walls behind, or would that make me a tasty mold sandwich? And/or, should I redgard the bench after the mud cures? It seems like the void inside and the concrete itself would be a mold garden if it isn’t waterproofed SOMEhow???
I REALLY appreciate your advice: this project has taken me about 16 months to date…
Thanks!
You can redgard the entire bench as well as the walls around it. No need to worry about a mold sandwich there.
You do everything the hard way? Stop worrying about everything, it’s a shower, not a shuttle engine. I know both, showers are easier.
No need to remove all the silicone. As long as your floor liner is up behind your substrate at least six inches then you don’t need to do anything with the gap at the base either, nothing’s gonna go wrong there.
You’ve got me figured out already? Yes, I am notorious for doing things the hard way. If I had read your site before starting, I would have done redgard on everything and skipped the plastic in the walls.
OK, since I have siliconed all four edges of the hardi (except by the mud pan), should I go ahead and use the fiberglass anti-alkali tape and thinset over the seams anyway? Since the tiles won’t want to stick to silicone anyway? Or, should I redgard over the tape for a better bond? Or, thinset and then Redgard? Yeah, I know: too hard again, but what is BEST?
Also, when constructing the bench, should I thinset the blocks together and to the mud bed, and then skim it all with the same mud as the pan is made of? I have some corners I want to fill in with mud: they won’t stick to the cinder block without thinset first, right? Do I mud after the thinset dries? Or when wet? Yeah, I drove my parents crazy with questions, too…
Oh, and I have a three inch wide section about 4″ high at the bottom of the wall adjoining the kerb, that is causing me fits. The liner has buckled and bunched up there due to the corner and kerb. It is holding the hardibacker out from the wall, and of course I can’t screw through the liner (defeats the purpose). I thought I might want to leave the hardi off that section, and hit the liner real good with redguard, figuring that is the only substance that will stick to the liner. Then I can use some pan mud to fill in the gaps and flush that section out to the same depth as the surrounding hardibacker, 1/2″. Is there a better way, or will this work? Thanks, Roger. Floor Elves rock!!!!!!
Shave the backer down so it’s flush with the rest of the wall. UNLESS! it’s more than 1/2″ (thickness of the backer) out of flush, in which case you should remove that board and shave down the stud enough to be able to tuck the liner into it.
Yes, tape and mud the seams anyway. It will tie the individual boards together so they move as one.
Yes, bond the blocks together, and to the pan, with thinset. Use wet mud – the same mud as the floor with 1/2 – 1 part mason’s lime added (it makes it sticky). No need for the thinset first, lime does it.
Hi Roger – lots of great information on this site and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge! I am re-modelling my second bath and I am about to start installing the Wonderboard on walls around the tub. 2.5 of the walls have no insulation/plastic. Halfway up the main wall (i.e. the 5′ span) there is insulation and plastic that runs up to the ceiling. My question is should I Redgard the areas that do not have plastic behind and then leave the area where there is plastic bare? Or would it be better to put plastic up everywhere and not worry about the Redgard. I would like to have the least amount of chance of leakage as possible but do not want to have any chance of mold formation. Thanks for your help!
Pat
Hi Pat,
Given your preference of least chance of leakage and no mold your best option would be to leave the rest of the wall bare, install the wonderboard then redgard all of it. The partial coverage of plastic won’t negatively affect your installation.
I am installing a vikrell tub and 3-piece surround. The surround is attached to the studs – how do you waterproof the seam around the surround and the seam between the tub base and where it will meet the tile floor?
Thanks!
Hey Darrell,
Each manufacturer has their own recommendations on which particular product to use. Lacking that use 100% silicone for all of it.
Great info. I have built a shower pan using Prepitch and Quickpitch , membrane and a weep protector. Following guidelines elsewhere, I ran the membrane a foot up the wall and stapled, then hung plastic sheeting and stapled to the walls. Next I installed hardiboard walls and ceiling. Instructions I was following were to use fiberglass tape and thinset on all seams, then redguard lower two foot of wall and all seams. Now this doesnt sound rig ht after reading your site. Do I need to pull the hardi and remove the plastic? If so do I use silicone on a
ny gaps includiing the bottom of the hardi? I like the idea of redguarding the whole shower including ceiling, but with plastic sheeting behind.. help?
Hey Joel,
If you want to use redgard on the whole thing you’ll need to remove the plastic. Right now, with just the plastic behind it, it’s waterproof and ready to go. No need to redgard any of it, you have a normal traditionally waterproofed shower.