Shower Waterproofing Manual
Not sure what type of waterproofing method you need? Not sure what’s available?? Is everyone on the planet trying to confuse you with different stuff??? You’re in luck!
I am now making available for the low, low price of absolutely free my shower waterproofing manual. It will explain for you, in simple terms and plain English:
- What methods are available
- How each method works
- The pros and cons of each
- How much time, money, and skill is involved
And best of all it will do this without attempting to diminish you with my absolute mastery and prowess of all the big tile and installation terms you don’t care about.
Of course it also contains a host of jackassery gems such as:
- Why my dog continues to burst into flames
- How much a wall weighs
- Fun facts about unicorns
- A little tidbit about the lawyer in my pocket
All that right there is worth the price! (It’s free, by the way, and that’s about what it’s worth) All you have to do is fill out the little form in the upper right box under the picture of the manual with your name and email and I’ll have the elves shoot it right to your emailbox. (Yes, emailbox is a word, I just made it one)
Fill it out and get ready for…
THE BEST EBOOK ON THE PLANET!!!!! 
And if I can’t get a hold of that I’ll send you mine.
.
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Roger, Thanks for the email, the link worked GREAT, Ron
Roger–I tried several times-8 or more-to download the waterproofing manual, but like Larry I keep getting the the message that I didn’t enter the code correctly. HELP–Ron
Hey Ron,
I’ve properly flogged the elves and sent you an email.
Roger,
First, pretty fantastic site you have here. Lots of good info and interaction. The wife can’t understand how I’ve spent hours reading a -shower- blog.
My project is a 3×3 shower that was built with greenboard and the bottom fell apart. Ive demoed the
whole thing except the pan bed and tile which looks like it was layed after the walls were tiled as the wall tile continued down below the floor finish grade. I have been able to remove the green board and the tile from around the base leaving a gap betreen the liner and the mud pack/tile.
My plan is to put the half inch hardi board up and my qustion is would i be ok to redguard it, or should i just stick to the plastic/tar paper route and
and as i’m going to use a 3/8 marble instead of the original tile, should i stop the backer slightly above the floor level. i am concerned about wicking water back up the backer if i redguard it.
Thoughts?
Again thanks for the great site.
Les
If you use the redgard stop it about 1/8″ above the mud deck and silicone the gap between them. It prevents wicking.
Hey Les,
You can do either one. The redgard will work fine. Just make sure the backerboard (and barrier if you go that route) overlaps the pan liner so the water runs into the drain this time.
Roger,
I’m installing a 32×60 walk in shower with a swanstone shower base. I got the mortar bed thing figured out (Separate question/comment a week or so ago), but have 2 more questions:
1. I’m planning to use cement board and RedGard for waterproofing. I haven’t purchased the cement board yet & I’m wondering if the RedGard is easier to apply to HardiBacker or Durock, or if it makes no difference?
2. We’re planning to put glass mosaic tile all the way to the ceiling on all three sides. Do I need to RedGard all the way up to the ceiling or can I stop a couple of feet from the ceiling to avoid having to buy that second gallon of RedGard?
Thanks!
Mike
Hey Mike,
Redgard is much easier over hardibacker. Durock is very, very porous.
As long as you get the redgard installed to just above the shower head it will be just fine. No need to throw away fifty bucks.
Thanks Roger!
Any reason not to use Hardie? If not, sounds like that’s the way to go. Once I get to the thinset + tape for the seams in the Hardie, what thinset do you suggest? Can I just use a small batch of whatever I end up using for the tile?
Speaking of the thinset for the tile… I’ll be setting 1″ clear glass mosaic tile. Each has an opaque painted white back, so is there any point in spending the extra money on special bright white ”glass tile thin-set mortar,” or can I just use a “regular” white thinset. If so, do you have a recommendation? We held up some different “off white” colors behind one of the sheets of tile and didn’t notice a color cast…
Thanks again!
Mike
Nope, hardi is good stuff.
Just regular white thinset is fine. I prefer laticrete 253 but versabond or mapei ultraflex white will work just fine.
I have a question about putting backer board directly over dry wall with a plastic piece inbetween for vapor barrier, for a shower enclosure. I know that it will add a 1/2″ thickness but other than that is it ok to do that will it last just as long or is that a bad idea
Thank You Dave
Hi Dave,
Let me ask the obvious – why the hell would you want to do that?
It may work, and it may not work. I honestly don’t know since I won’t do that and I’ve never heard of anyone that has. And there has never been any testing on this method of which I am aware. In my opinion it’s a bad idea.
We remodelled our home, kitchen, and baths. I am totally inexperienced with tile and it’s installation but I do know something was done wrong.
My kitchen floor has numerous cracks, holes and long, long cracks. The tile in the bathroom is missing grout in too many places to count. My question is how to determine what he did wrong? What would be the logical steps to determine the errors? Do I first verify that the tile is suitable for floor use and for kitchen and bathrooms? If the tile purchased is of the proper grade then do I pull a tile from the floor and shower area? Don’t I need to see what was done to prepare the floor and walls for installation? If I see a membrane for the tile for waterproofing then can I assume the rest of the installation process was correct or not? I need to know if it was improper preparation or improper installation? Right?
What other steps can I take to narrow down what was done incorrectly? Thanks. I have been reading about tile installation (prepare the surface, then install correctly) but am not sure where to start to investigate the tile sub-contractor’s work. I appreciate your sense of humor. I will need my own humor as I go after the GC on our job.
Hey Gail,
There are WAY too many possibilities of ways things could have been done incorrectly, and only a limited amount of ways it could have been done properly. Your best course of action would be to know what he DID NOT do rather than what he did. I can nearly guarantee you this much: the subfloor likely only has one layer of plywood – it needs two. If he did use backerboard (floors) there is likely no thinset beneath it and the seams are not taped and mudded (and he probably used drywall or decking screws as well).
You did not say how old the installation is – has the grout cracked out of those areas or was it never there? (Believe it or not I’ve seen both) Just because you see waterproofing it does not, in any way, shape or form, mean that the rest of the installation was done correctly. It doesn’t even mean that the waterproofing was done correctly. I can put waterproofing on anything – if I don’t do it correctly it’s useless.
Here’s the easy place to start: if you have central heating (I’m assuming so) take out one of the heater vent covers and see what’s there under the tile – how many layers, what it is, and whether or not there is thinset where there should be thinset. Take off your control valve escutcheon (the big plate around your shower control valve) and see what’s back there. Let me know what you find and we can go from there.
For the most part, disregarding expensive stuff like sandstone, marbles and other natural stones, unless your tile was made specifically for a wall application (not very many tiles carry only this designation – so that’s fairly rare as well) you can use nearly any ceramic or porcelain in nearly any area of your home (inside). So it’s doubtful that the particular type of tile has anything to do with it.
I took the plate off in the shower. Behind the plate is what appears to be insulation – kinda like what I see in our attic but it is white. I can poke at it with the screwdriver and it is soft. It looks like the tile was applied directly to sheet rock. I don’t see anything else. It is bad right?
Hey Roger,
So all the plastic is up in my shower/tub as well as the backer board and I’ve taped and mudded all the seams. I’ve built 2 niches and put Red Guard all in them. After seeing how awesome Red Guard is, how addicting is it to paint on, and how good it makes me feel about being waterproof I want to do the whole shower.
Although I put the plastic up according to your awesomeness I feel like waterproofing over the backer board is the way to go (I work on a lot of mold restoration jobs) I know you can’t do both (plastic and RG) but what if I stuffed the plastic that I haven’t siliconed to the tube back in the wall and then RD’d the whole thing? That way the wall would still be able to breath? Is the plastic really good enough or would RG be better?
Also, my wall that that I built that is level in height with my tub…I’m doing a 12×12 diamond pattern on the floor with rectangle tile baseboard (as you suggested). In your opinion what would look best for the small wall? Following the same diamond pattern from the floor and up the wall, square like the shower is going to be (6×6) or something totally different?
Thanks again!
You can if you want, I can’t guarantee a failure. I can only tell you what may happen. Pushing the plastic into the wall cavity is better than nothing, but obviously not ideal. Yes, redgard is a better, cleaner, more efficient waterproofing method. Any topical membrane is better than a traditional method because your substrate will not get wet.
Normally I orient tile on all vertical surfaces in the same direction (and with the same tile) so your short wall would probably look best with the 6×6 straight.
I’am building a walk in shower and using hardie backer directly on studs then the tile. The shower will be in middle of house with no exposure to an exterior wall. Can I just put plastic on the studs to keep any moisture from penetrating them or do I need to do the entire area, I’am not insulating between studs. Thanks for any help!!
Hi Terry,
You need to cover the entire area. Having just strips of barrier over the studs leaves the rest of the wall cavity exposed, water tends to creep around stuff, barriers included. It needs to be completely sealed.
Greetings Roger – Am almost at the point where I will apply a water proofing solution to my topical shower walls. Was looking at Redgard and Hydroban, and was shopping at my local tile store, Best Tile (besttile.com) where they were pushing an ARDEX product, Ardex 8+9 waterproofing compound. I have included the like to the product below. Anyhow, I wanted to know if you had any experience or thoughts about this product?
Please let me know,
Regards,
Dale
http://www.ardex.com/productDetail.asp?ContentID=14&ContentParentID=2&ProductCategoryID=0&ProductID=54
Hi Dale,
Let ‘em push it all they want and walk away to get some redgard or hydroban.
I’ve never used the Ardex product, spec sheets state it meets all ANSI standards it must, but I don’t know how easy it is to work with them or anything else. I know a lot about the other two and would take either over a product being ‘pushed’ on me – I absolutely hate that. The product is likely just fine, I’m just an ass like that. 
Roger,
Thanks for the PDF, the elves came through. The manual is very clear and concise, even I understood it.
I do have a question, I am leaning toward the concrete backer board and redguard or hydroban, will this method pose a problem if I am anticipating using the shower stall with a steam unit? I understand that it will have to be done on walls and ceiling, (I am using a fiberglass pan)
Or, is there a preferred method for steam showers?
Thanks, Jim
Hi Jim,
No problem at all. Both products are approved for steam showers. You DO need a vapor barrier behind it as well with certain products. Steam showers are completely different animals. Laticrete has a technical design manual for steam showers, you can find it here: http://www.laticrete.com/Portals/0/pdf/DS-125.pdf
I gave up trying to get your free waterproofing manual, I guess the elves are all helping santa.
Hey Jim,
Sorry about that, the little bastards always disappear this time of year. I sent you an email.
I pressed the wrong key and do not know what happened to my previous comment. I guess it’s gone into cyberspace! Anyway, please help me with the waterproofing manual. I’ve been trying to get it for days now and those elves keep getting in the way. Your website is absolutely fantastic. It is packed with such extremely helpful and practical information. Thank you very much for sharing!
I’ve just sent you an email and began flogging the elves!
I have tried several times to download your Waterproofing Your Shower Manual, but it seems the elves are always on the rampage and I get a message that I didn’t enter the code right. I have done this several times checking in excruciating detail to be sure that the code was entered correctly. Do the elves just have it in for me?
Hey Larry,
Yes, the elves have it out for you!
I’ve duct taped them to the wall and sent you an email with the link. If you have any more problems let me know and I’ll move on to the proper flogging.
Roger,
I thought I submitted a question yesterday but don’t see it (or any response) today so thought I’d try again in case I screwed up somehow. I know on some sites, questions only show up once the expert (you!) has replied, so if that is the case and you just didn’t get to my query yet, sorry for the duplication – I don’t want to clutter your amazing site and do understand that you have a life and a job and that it has only been one day, which isn’t a lot of time (plus I sort of forgot from which page I posted the question on and so I made sure I noted it this time!).
I have read a bunch of articles, questions, and etc. here and have not seen discussed – explicitly – what I am trying to do, so here goes. Net is that I am in the middle of a major master bath remodel, doing all the work myself, have gotten all the demo done, rebuilt the stud walls to redefine the closet and shower, done wiring, lighting, rough plumbing done (except the shower drain…see below), and am starting to put HardiBacker on the wet area walls and drywall on the remaining ones.
Just an aside, the old shower was worthy of your “Flawed” page of shameful work, by the way – nice fiberglass pan built by one contractor and then destroyed by another who put screw right through it for the door frame with subsequent leakage into the surrounding walls, 2 x 4 curb on top of the concrete slab floor (rotted), mold in the walls and curb, leaks around where the shower controls trim connected to the underlying valve, no type of moisture barrier at all behind or on top of the Durock above the pan, etc., etc. Truly a mess – and I don’t want to be guilty of doing anything that years down the road anyone will uncover and show as an example of shoddy work!
Anyway, the wife and I have chosen some nice 16″ x 16″ limestone for the flooring in the remodeled space, and want to have a walk-in shower (6′L x 4′W) without a curb – i.e., the shower floor starts at the same level as the floor just outside, has the same limestone on it and also on two of the walls, the other two will be floor-to-ceiling 9′ glass walls. The two tile walls are at right angles to each other on the left and back walls as you face the shower ( |”””” ), and the front and right walls are the glass ones ( __ | ) where the gap shown is the entryway.
In researching how do make this look the way we wanted it and to function correctly, the solution I came up with was a 6′ slot drain, recessed into a trench cut into the slab and placed along the inside of the front glass wall and across the entryway, with a short arm (~ 18″) of 2″ PVC pipe connected at the slot drain’s exit and sloped toward and connected to the existing PVC drain pipe in the slab. With the floor sloped evenly (1/4 inch per foot) – using standard pan mud – from the back wall toward the front/entryway wall so all the shower water drains into the slot drain, which has an internal slope to drain the water toward the drain exit, the drainage would all seem to work out. The minimal 1″ slope uphill from the entrance side toward the back wall 4′ away should be pretty subtle/unnoticeable, and with use of HardiBacker for covering the stud walls where the tile will go and generous amounts of Red Gard over top of all the Hardi and pan mud surfaces to waterproof everything before tiling all the walls and floor, I felt I could create a pretty tight, functional, and aesthetically pleasing shower.
Nothing I have read said this wouldn’t all work, but nothing said it would, either. All references to use of mud seemed to indicate its use in creating a bowl-shaped basin surrounding a more standard, central drain, not a uniformly sloped plane tilting toward a slot drain. I don’t see too much discussion of trench or slot drains and pan mud, Red Gard, etc., in general, actually, so I wanted your opinion before I proceeded. I can always sacrifice aesthetics a bit by carving the 16″ x 16″ limestone up into 4″ x 4″ pieces (which seem to be the biggest that you are supposed to use with a bowl-type mudded pan, from what I read) and just keep the existing central drain, but I’d rather not do it that way unless that is the only way to do it right.
Any advice and/or comments are greatly appreciated, and again, sorry if I jumped the gun on re-posting regarding my dilemma. This is an amazing resource, and though I’ve done a fair bit of tiling over the years, none has been in a shower, so I am a bit hesitant to just jump in and do something stupid.
Hey Tim,
Your comment is right here with my response beneath it. You should also have received an email with my answer, your spam filter may be on a rampage or may just not like elves. Don’t worry about double posting it – it may help someone else here.
Roger,
Your response was encouraging. Sounds like I can do what we wanted to and not worry too much as long as the Red Gard is applied well. The trench drain I was planning on using is from a fairly new guy I found @ http://www.whatadrain.com. The drain I was interested in was one of his six foot long, side discharge ones with the Schluter Kerdi membrane already attached. I have spoken to Dave on the phone and he is very helpful. He designed and had his own molds fabricated for creating PVC drains, and the prices are a lot more affordable than many other products. Also, none of the “mainstream” products I found had the side discharge option, which in my application – having to dig into a slab – makes my job a lot easier. Check out his site and let me know what you think. My application will be different than his diagram since I will have a glass wall adjacent to ~ 1/2 of the drain and the other part will be across the entryway.
Also, since I have a wife with long thick hair, I will be putting a “custom” option together (which I have talked to Dave about offering as an option), i.e., an easily accessible and cleanable filter to keep the drain from clogging with hair etc. Even in the previous shower, until I started putting fairly fine mesh screens between the grate and the drain body, I had some really nasty clogs build up that I spent some unpleasant time working on with long lengths of coat hanger hire and the like. The water around here has a lot of limestone in it and some of those clogs were almost like rock once the soap, conditioner, and hair spent enough time sitting in the drain.
Ehhh. Not entirely sure about how I feel about that particular drain. Never seen ‘em, so it’s not something I feel I should really delve into much. My one precaution would be the filter you’ve discussed with him. That would be an absolute necessity given the installation procedure on his website. Simply leaving a 1/8″ to 3/16″ gap open at the end of your shower without a method of removing the tile covering it to clean it out, retrieve dropped rings, hair, etc, is not really a viable option in my opinion. Once that drain is clogged you’re SOL. And if you happen to drop your wedding ring or something similar you’re really SOL. With any drain there should be a cover which can be removed if need be for cleaning and retrieving purposes. As it is described on his site it seems to be a black hole of death.
Great idea, though, with the side outlet. Not new, Noble’s freestyle linear drains are actually available with a side outlet, proline makes one as well as Trenchdrain. Many of the manufacturers also custom make drains. With what you’ve described with your water I would be more apt to get one that will allow direct access to the drain pipe itself without the need to remove tile.
You asked.
Roger,
I agree that Dave’s installation method is not appropriate for my application, if for no other reason than that I will have glass for the vertical wall where he shows a tiled one, and I agree completely about the ‘black hole of death’ comment – that was the basis for my original call to him. I talked to him on the phone about the installation method not seeming very good, and he has heard this a lot, actually. He is actively working with some water jet and laser metal cutting folks to produce a metal grate, and already has a teak one available (and maybe a purplewood one too? he commented about some other woods that are pretty water resistant) that will allow easy removal/access as you and I both agree is necessary. He just hasn’t gotten around to updating his site – I’m pretty sure he isn’t as adept at the whole web site thing as you are.
However, the basic drain is very cost effective (Noble wanted ~$1100 for just a five foot drain, for instance), and I intend to either go with Dave’s teak grate option (since my wife bought a teak stool and a teak bath mat at BB&B anyway), or fabricate a strainer myself that is basically a tile holder channel into which I can fasten sections of my limestone tile to line up with the other tiles on the floor. I think I can beat the price of the more established players this way, even if I have to pay my local metal shop to fabricate the holder out of stainless steel (I was going to use something else I can make myself – this may be the subject of another post and set of discussions with Dave… maybe I will become a sub for him if it works out
).
Thanks for your comments (with which I completely agree), and your continued guidance and expertise. Maybe when I am done with the whole remodel (the wife tells me I have until July 4 – or else!), I will send/post some pics – although I haven’t seen a way to do that on your site.
Hey Tim,
You can always send photos to Roger@FloorElf.com. One of these days (in my spare time) I’m gonna have a page with reader’s installations. It’s on the list – it’s a long list.
Roger,
In your initial reply to my post (the one I lost track of…), you said:
“Hey Tim,
Nope, no other way to do it with large format tiles. Trench drains are awesome! I love them. You will still use deck mud to create your slope. Redgard can be used on the floor with the appropriate mesh reinforcement at the changes of plane and around the drain. A better option for the liquid would likely be Laticrete hydroban – you can use it on the floor and walls as well but you don’t need the reinforcement. Not sure which particular drain you’re using but both noble and schluter make one specific for topical membranes – you can paint right onto the fabric which is already attached to the drain.”
I guess my only question regarding the above is what is this appropriate mesh reinforcement of which you speak? Is it the same tape I was sold to use with the thinset between pieces of HardiBacker, Kerdi, Noble TS, or something else? As I am closer to actually doing some tile and drain work, I guess I need to know…
Thanks
Hey Tim,
It is a fabric reinforcement and should be available where you got the redgard. Dunno if HD carries it or not. It kinda looks like landscaping fabric. You paint on your membrane, install a strip of the fabric (about 6 inches wide) and paint over it. I have talked with guys that have used actual landscaping fabric and said it works all right if you can’t find the real stuff.
So… I was wrong about not having any other questions. In your original reply and subsequent readings of other posts and your responses, I guess one thing is still a tiny bit unclear to me, and that is: Do you put Red Gard over the deck mud or under it when using it as the waterproofing method for your shower? I would have guessed over it until I read that the deck mud ends up sort of sandy, and I am not sure that getting sand in your Red Gard is a good idea – might it harm the material properties of the membrane or …? So, which way is it – on top of or underneath your pan mud?
Hi Tim,
It goes right on top of the mud bed, directly beneath the tile. The easiest way to do it is to skim-coat the mud deck to lock in all the loose sand particles. After that cures install your redgard directly over that. That’s the easiest way. You can go right over the deck mud, the first coat will lock in all the loose sand once it’s cured, then the subsequent coats will waterproof everything.
Hi Roger, Sorry, but it’s Yog again. Appreciate the help with my CBU joint question. I am using 1/2″ greenboard on the outside of my shower entrance. I did not leave the CBU in the shower wall “proud” to the outside, so the edge of the GB is even with the face of the shower wall. What do I do where the CBU and the greenboard meet? Should I use a plastic outside corner bead? That looks like it will be a pain putting scres tha close to the edge. And can I Redgard the cut end of the greenboard? Thanks, Yogi
Hey Yogi,
You can redgard it or your can silicone between them and use a plastic corner bead. You can install that corner bead with liquid nails or something similar rather than screws. Small nails with heads also work well.
Thanks buddy, Yog
Thanks!
thanks
You’re welcome.
Roger,
I have really appreciated all your information on this site. When I first discovered it, I was a bit overwhelmed, but I am definitely learning.
I have just downloaded and read your e-book on waterproofing showers, and have some questions:
Background Info: My wife and I recently decided to turn an upstairs bedroom into a bathroom. My brother and I have plumbing and etc run up there no problem, but it is time to attack the shower. We have purchased a shower kit from Menards that includes a acrylic base, and 2 glass walls (a corner shower) but no back walls with the plans of tiling the walls(it can be returned, but it was sale, and we like it). The walls in this room currently consist of drywall (over old plaster and lath, it’s and older house). We have no definite timeline on this project, as long as forward progress remains, than I am not sleeping on the couch
Question: It appears that the simplest way for me to go forward is to use something like Kerdi, as I have drywall already on the walls. If I do this, how do I tie the Kerdi into the acrylic base? Is it going to cause a problem below the Kerdi if i have to take out a section of the drywall to run plumbing, then patch it back in (as long as it is secure)? I am assuming that the Kerdi will not care if it goes over top of drywall that was painted once (I would plan on sanding it off).
Or, would you recommend pulling the many layers off, and starting over with a different solution? I realize that it would make the project larger and longer, but I don’t want to re-do this in 10 years.
I appreciate any advice that you would be willing to share.
Hey Ben,
As long as your walls are SOLID you’ll be fine using kerdi on the drywall. You can cut out and patch whatever you need to before the kerdi goes up – and no need to tape and mud the seams after you repair it, the kerdi does essentially the same thing. Kerdi doesn’t care how many seams you have in your drywall.
Make sure you install the acrylic base so the upwardly turned flange is even or behind the plane of the drywall. In other words you don’t want the flange sticking out from the bottom of the drywall. When you install your kerdi run it down the wall all the way over the flange and silicone (be sure to use 100% silicone) the back of the kerdi to the flange. That will seal the bottom and make the entire structure waterproof.
On a side note – just in case it wasn’t included in the instructions with the base. Make sure you use thinset or cement beneath the base, between the floor and base, when you install it. This is not to glue it or adhere it at all – it’s to support it. If you get full support beneath that base it will remain solid, won’t flex (cracking grout) and it won’t eventually start to squeak – like almost every tub and shower base on the planet.
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