To create a shower floor from scratch we use what is commonly referred to as “dry pack mortar” or deck mud. Deck mud contains three ingredients: regular portland cement, sand, and water. That’s it. Don’t let anyone tell you that a latex additive or anything else is necessary. It is not. Properly mixing and installing deck mud will create a shower floor that will last for years and years.

The ratio is very important to achieve the correct consistency and stability. You want 5 parts sand to 1 part cement. Your ratio can vary from 4 to 6 : 1 but the 5 : 1 is what I use and find to be the easiest to work. You want just enough water to dampen the mixture. It’s not a lot. Too much water will cause your mud to shrink as it cures and compromise the stability of your base. You just want it damp – really.

The easiest and most convenient way to get your mixture correct is to buy the quikrete “sand and topping” mix which is sold at all the big home centers. This is already mixed at a 3 : 1 ratio. For a 60lb. bag you need only add 30lbs. of sand to it. This is how I mix mine – it’s convenient. The easiest way to mix it is with a regular shovel or garden hoe in a mixing box or regular wheelbarrow, although you can mix it with and in anything that works for you.

After it’s mixed it should just be damp. When you pick up a handful of it you should be able to squeeze it without water dripping from it. It should be able to hold it’s shape when you squeeze it, just like a snowball.

Whether you mix the entire batch from scratch or use the sand and topping mix it should all have this same consistency. If it is any wetter it will shrink as it dries and it will not be as solid and stable as it should be. I usually start with about 1/2 gallon of water and work up from there. I think. I really can’t tell you exactly how much water to use because I don’t measure it. I’ll have to do that and include it here.

As you install and shape your base, slopes, and shower floors you want to pound the mix with a wooden or magnesium float. I mean beat the hell out of it. You want the mud packed very well with no voids. The harder you pack it the more stable it will be. I have or will have individual posts to instruct you how to shape shower floors, etc. This one is strictly to describe the proper recipe for your mix.

A couple of companies also make a mix specifically for shower floors and mud beds. I’ve only used one and it worked quite well. Just follow the mixing instructions on the bag and start with the minimum amount of water they suggest and work up from there.

When set (about 24 hours) the mud bed will be a perfectly suitable substrate for your tile installation. It will be sandy on the top. You can scratch it with your fingernail – stop doing that! It’s normal. I understand it’s counter-intuitive, but it really is normal.

Although you may have been led to believe that creating a shower floor from scratch is a very difficult thing to do, it is not. With careful planning and attention to detail you can create a shower that will last for years without any problems. Getting your mud mix correct is at the core of the proper method.

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  • giulio

    Hi, i had to break a little of the dry pack because the shower drain was crooked. Can i now refill the little area where i chipped out?and start tiling or do i have to gut everything and redo the whole shower base again starting with a new shower pan liner. Right now the shower pan is still intact.

    • Roger

      Hi Giulio,

      You can just refill it and start tiling.

      • giulio

        thks

  • rich

    How will the thinset stick to a sandy surface?

    • Roger

      Hi Rich,

      Very well. :D The ‘sandy surface’ is simply loose particles of sand on top of the cured mud bed (which is more like concrete). The crystals from the portland in the thinset will lock in the loose sand and grow into the surface of the mud deck, locking it all together.

  • Gary A

    I haven’t done a dry pack since I was a kid with my father. I’m getting ready to do my kitchen floor. I tore it down to the planks. Read screwed all of them. Laid felt, and mesh. But my wife wants it fluch with the hardwood. Is 3/4″ enough? I have no issues mixing it since I was the grunt as a child lol
    and I know I’ve done a few 3/4″ as a child. I would like your opinion !

    • Roger

      Hi Gary,

      You can do 3/4″ provided you have a fairly stout floor that won’t flex a lot beneath it. With the lath you’ll be fine.

  • alan

    Hello, I am having a hard time finding information about a mud bed for a cultured marble shower base. Should I use the same kind of “deck mud” you mention here to set a pre-made base in??

    • Roger

      Hi Alan,

      Regular concrete is fine under a regular shower base.

  • Joe Bautista

    I laid my pre-slope mortar on top of 3/4″ plywood with roofing paper and metal mesh on top. I left that project for a couple of weeks (to start another that I probably won’t finish!) and my pre-slope is crumbling. It is crumbling so badly that I pulled away loose pieces and got down to where I can see the mesh! My mixture was pretty dry, but I was able to form a ball with it. Could it have been too dry?? Can I chip out all the loose stuff and then re-pour or do I have to chip it ALL out (please say I don’t have to do that!)

    • Roger

      Hi Joe,

      It may have been too dry, and you may not have packed it well enough, likely the latter. The finished deck mud WILL be sandy, if you dig around in it – it WILL crumble. Was it fine before you started poking at it? :D With a preslope you can just add more deck mud, pack it down REALLY well, let that cure then put your liner over it. You CAN NOT do that with the top slope that you bond the tile to, so make sure you pack that one down well.

      And stop poking at it… :D

  • John

    I mixed the topping and sand as you subscribed. It has been set now for about 18 hours. The mortar bed looks good, but as you mentioned it will scratch, which makes me a little nervous.

    My question is about the curb. I used the same deck mud mix to build the curb (the sub structure of the curb is 2 2X4 stacked on top of each other with a ¾ “ plywood spacer in the middle to bring the sub structure of the curb height to 3 ¾” above the plywood floor and covered in metal lath). I am concerned that the deck mud mix I applied to the curb is strong enough (concerned about crumbling). Should I have used a different mix to cover the curb in mortar? If so, I can redo, just wanted to check with you. THANK YOU!!!

    • Roger

      Hi John,

      Ideally you would use wet mud, rather than deck mud, on the curb. But your curb will be fine once you get it tiled. It is plenty strong and stable enough. Don’t let the deck mud make you nervous. :D

  • pete

    Mr. Elf
    what is the thinnest the dry pack should be applied

    • Roger

      Hi Pete,

      Absolute thinnest is 3/4″. You can go thinner than that at the drain on the preslope.

  • Kevin

    Roger,
    How much mix (amount and volume of bags) do I need to cover 32sq feet 1½-1¾″ thick?

    Thanks.

    • Roger

      Hi Kevin,

      16 bags of s&t mix and 8 bags of sand. 80lbs. and 50lbs. respectively.

  • Ken

    Before installing my membrane and deck mud should my sub floor be at least a 1 1/2″ . Double 3/4″ plywood

    • Roger

      Hi Ken,

      Ideal, but not completely necessary. 1 layer of 3/4 is fine.

  • Steve

    When installing the deck mud over a concrete subfloor, is there any prep that needs to be done to the concrete before putting the deck mud down (other than cleaning it)? One guy’s opinion was to put a thin layer of modified thinset down first and then install the deck mud over it (before the thinset layer dries).

    • Roger

      Hi Steve,

      Yes, you should put thinset down over the concrete to bond the bed to the concrete.

      • Steve

        Thanks, Roger…

        You’re the man!

  • Karl

    Roger,
    How much mix do I need to cover 47sq feet .75″ thick?

    • Roger

      Hi Karl,

      8 bags of sand and topping mix, 4 bags of sand.

  • Garth

    Roger, quick math check. 80lb bags of sand and topping would need 40lbs sand? Sorry my local building supply only had 80 pounders. What is typical coverage say an 1″ thick per 60/30lb mix? Or better yet 80/40lb lol

  • Chris

    Quick question, when you say “sand” is that the same as “quickcrete sand/topping mix”?

    • Chris

      lol nevermind, I re-read and you already mentioned the sand/topping mix

  • Craig

    When making preslope mud would it better if it is a little on the drier side or wet side or is there a large enough variance that it wont matter…

    • Roger

      Hi Craig,

      Doesn’t matter at all.

  • phil

    Hello,

    Finally had the courage to lay my mudbed. I will lay down the kerdi tomorrow morning. I think I mixed the mud on the dry side. It’s quite sandy. Is their any trick to lay down the ditra-set for the kerdi. I have a feeling the sandy top might cause some problems. Should I mist it first or make the thinset extra watery. Thanks

    • Roger

      Hi Phil,

      Although I’m certain I’m way too late, you can skim coat the surface with thinset first, let that cure, then install the membrane.

  • Wendy

    We were nervous about doing the shower pan ourselves (didn’t see your site in time) and hired a plumber. We had planned to wait a couple of weeks before tiling as we were leaving on vacation and he agreed this was not a problem. Now we are back and ready to begin tiling the shower floor and walls, but the shower pan is cracked. Plumber now says we should have tiled the floor the next day. However, if the pan cracked before we started work, wouldn’t it crack even after the tile was laid? We’re not sure now whether to have the plumber come back and redo the pan, try it ourselves or hire someone else. I also do not have any wall board up yet or wall tile and noticed this was completed down to the pan liner in most videos we watched before the floor tile was laid. What is the rule on when this is put up?

    Thanks for your help!

    • Roger

      Hi Wendy,

      It depends on how the floor was built. Is there a proper preslope? Is there a liner? Are there two layers of deck mud with the liner between? Did he use actual deck mud to build your floor? (Cracking is indicative of an improper mix). There are way too many variables and unknowns for me to give you a recommendations on how to proceed. It may be fine, it may not – I can’t see it from here. :D I’d need a lot more info to be able to help.

  • Bri

    How do you mix the mortar that sits around a 3-piece clamping drain (i.e. Nobleseal) and on top of the pea gravel (or whatever you choose for weep hole protection)? If it’s too dry couldn’t it crumble down through the gravel and clog up the holes? If it’s too wet will it be strong enough, or possibly shrink/crack? Thanks!

    • Roger

      Hi Bri,

      You don’t mix mortar for anywhere around the drain. If you’re talking about deck mud – the same way you mix it for everything else. It will not crumble down through the gravel and clog up the holes. And it would have to be extremely wet to shrink and crack significantly.

  • Eye

    Can I use the same deck mud from my floor to do my bench seat as well?

    • Roger

      Hi Eye,

      Aye.

  • Crystal

    Hi! We made the mud bed, and let it cure 24 hrs. My husband took the shop vac to clean up the sandy top. It was scratching out, and he got a little vigorous…..we now have some craters. Can this be patched, or do we need to tear it out and start again?

    • Roger

      Hi Crystal,

      It can be patched with thinset (smaller) or thinset and more deck mud (larger holes).

  • Pete

    Hello Mr. Elf,
    Advisable or even recommended to coat the floor after dry packing with Red Guard?

    • Roger

      Hi Pete,

      Not if you have a pvc or cpe membrane under it. You want one or the other, never both.

  • Bev

    Humm we had to use a bit of dry pack to fill in around a Kerdi shower pan. We were told to mix it 1:1 sand, cement. The fill space is about 1″ around 3 sides and about 6″ wide across the front of the shower. (60″x40″ shower floor)
    We have already covered it all with the Kerdi fabric and are currently doing the water test before we start tiling the floor.
    Is this 1:1 mix going to cause problems down the road??

    • Roger

      Hi Bev,

      Maybe. It depends on a LOT of factors. My guess is that the 1″ fills around the sides won’t be a problem at all, but the 6″ across the front may be. Is your substrate wood or concrete?

      • Bev

        Concrete. The dry pack is about 1.5″ thick. The thickness of the Kerdi pan.

        • Bev

          Also, on this 60’x36″ shower floor, I planned to frame it with about 6″x24″ strips of the (12×24″) porcelain floor tile. Cutting a diagonal seams at the corners to allow for these long tile pieces to follow the pans slope, then filling in the center with small mosaics.
          Might this work, or should I just do the entire pan in mosaics??
          Thanks so much. Bev

          • Roger

            You should be fine with the border.

  • John

    Quikrete says the sand/ topping mix alone is used for preslope and top and that nothing needs to be mixed. Can you do it that way or are you asking for trouble?
    They also say it does well as the curb

    • Roger

      Hi John,

      I’m sure they’ll say anything that will sell their product. :D Deck mud needs to be a minimum of a 4:1 mix. The extra sand in it allows for movement compensation and prevents that from causing cracking in your tile installation. The extra sand needs to be in there. It will work for a curb – if you take half a day to shape it and try to get it to bond to a vertical surface. Wet mud is sticky, it does this. Deck mud is not.

  • Matt

    Starting my first tile shower project. My question is this…I’m making a mortar pan first, thin a membrane, then a mortar pan again that the tile will lay on. Is the initial pan (on the plywood subfloor) the same make up as the mortar pan that will go on top of the membrane (the pan the actual tile will be on)?

    • Roger

      Hi Matt,

      Yes, your preslope is made of regular deck mud as well.

    • John

      Hi Matt, IMHO – You really should not put cements on wood sub-floor for at least two reasons (the drying cement will suck moisture out of the wood & the aging wood will cause cement to crack).
      Instead, you should put down a 1/2″ HardiBacker panel – with correct screws – and lay the mud on that.
      Also, build curb with 4x stacked 2×4’s; block between wall framing with 2×6 or 2×8’s; pour mud. At least that’s what I was going to do.
      Wish I had seen this blog before I bought the cement. The HomeDepot “expert” pushed the RapidSet “Cement All” … but it’s WAY TOO FAST. Dried right in the bucket in about 15-20 minutes! … and the crap’s expensive, (55#~$20). I was leaning toward the Quickrete “Deck Mud” (50#<$5) – but the Home Depot dummy talked me out of it … so I'm going to take back all 3 bags I bought – including the partial bag and cement bucket – it almost took my mixer attachment too!
      I looked at the Quikrete site on my cell and they only spoke of the Floor mud being for Shower Pan … and no easy way to get info on sand/cement ratio. … but HD only carries the Deck Mud.
      Lowes carries MAPEI's 4 to 1 Mud Bed Mix, (55#~$7.5). But they don't carry it in very many stores.

      • Roger

        It’s actually easier, and the correct method, to lay tar paper (roofing felt) over the plywood, then metal lath, then your deck mud when you’re working over plywood. Cement backerboard is not necessary, and it actually sucks moisture out of a mix more quickly if not saturated before installing the deck mud.

  • Jon

    I have a 5’x3′ shower, will the 60 lb. bag of quikrete and the 30 lbs of sand be enough for that size shower pan or should I plan on getting more?

    • Roger

      Hi Jon,

      Normally two of the sand and topping mix and one bag of sand will do that.

  • Janie

    First time doing this and I received my training from you and YouTube. I believe I added just the right amount of water and mixed thoroughly, if anything maybe it was slightly too dry? I could clump a ball together, but only a small fistful, I could not create a giant snowball that stuck together. I think he problem lies in my failure to pack the mud well enough. I decided to check it out after 36 hours and when I walk on it I can feel it slightly compressing with every step, like when I walk I am packing it in. Is there a solution besides removal and starting over?

    Thank you

    • Roger

      Hi Janie,

      Since you did not reply as an answer to my (presumed) last reply I have no idea what you may be speaking of. If I’ve answered a question for you previously can you please repost this as a reply to that, I can then give you a proper answer. Thanks.