Shower Waterproofing Manual

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Caulk or Grout in Corners?

by Roger

One of the most asked questions by do-it-yourselfer’s is whether they should use caulk or grout in the corners. Industry standards state that a flexible material be used at all changes of plane. But! – if you ask a hundred different professionals you will more than likely receive fifty of each answer.  While there are pros and cons of each, I am in the camp that uses caulk. That being the case, I will discuss using grout first. I’m backwards like that.

Using Grout at Changes of Plane

While the phrase “changes of plane” may sound a bit uppity or technical – it’s not. It simply describes the corner or edge of any surface that changes direction such as a corner, a wall to a floor, or a wall to the tub edge. Many professionals simply grout that corner as they do any other space between the tiles. There are a couple of things that must be taken into consideration before choosing this method.

  1. Your walls and the framing of your shower must be absolutely rock solid. I do mean absolutely. Grout is a cement-based product and as such is not meant to flex. If your wall moves your grout will eventually crack – it’s that simple.
  2. The space between the tiles at the change of plane must be large enough (for sanded grout) or small enough (for non-sanded grout) to be able to support the grout. That simply means that if you are using sanded grout you cannot butt the tiles against each other at the corner and expect to be able to force grout into it. It will not stay if the grout has no grout line to hold onto – if it is simply attempting to grab onto the face of the tiles at a 90 degree angle. There must be a grout line at the changes of plane.
  3. You must decide you are going to use grout at the changes of plane before you install the tile. You can then make sure to leave a line for the grout as well as adding additional support for any spots that may move even the tiniest bit (which it should not do anyway).

If you have taken the above points into consideration and still decide to use grout in the corners – go ahead. The big advantages of using grout here is that it will match all the grout lines and it will never have to be replaced. So although extra care must be taken to properly use grout at your plane changes, the advantages for some people are worth the extra time.

Using Caulk at Changes of Plane

There are several advantages to using caulk in corners and any other area where there may be a plane change or where tile meets another material such as your bathtub or sink.

  1. Unlike grout you are able to use caulk in a corner where tiles are butted against each other. It will stick to the face of the tile rather than needing a space between the tiles to grab.
  2. Caulk is flexible. If there is any movement the caulk is flexible enough to move with it and remain in place. It will not crack out or fall off.
  3. Caulk is waterproof – grout is not. Water will collect in corners such as where your tile meets the tub more than it will on the face of the tile.
  4. If your caulk does crack out or need to be replaced it is easily done.

The only two disadvantages to using caulk instead of grout are that you need to periodically remove and replace the caulk and, depending on your choice of grout, you may not be able to find a caulk that matches exactly. The first reason I consider to simply be regular maintenance and the latter is less of a problem since most major grout manufacturers sell matching caulk.

When to Use Grout

The only time I will use grout for a plane change is when I am using epoxy grout. Epoxy grout is bulletproof! OK, maybe it’s not bulletproof but you can hit it with a hammer a couple of times before it chips. (Don’t do that.) If you are using epoxy go ahead and grout the corners and changes of plane as well. Although it is not flexible it will grab the tile well enough to prevent it from splitting or cracking out. Precautions must still be taken but the Epoxy is strong enough to withstand normal structural movement.

How to Decide

Given the above parameters I believe caulk to always be the best choice. What you must understand about tile installation is no matter where you are installing the tile, it is always a structure that moves, no matter how minutely. Concrete moves, (the ground beneath it) that’s why it has expansion joints – to control where the movement goes. Most shower installations are over a wood structure of some sort. Whether you have drywall, backerboard, or a membrane, if you go far enough behind the tile, you’ll find wood. Wood moves, it’s just a fact of life. Humidity, weather, even the structure’s foundation all affect how much it moves. By taking proper precautions you can minimize the movement, but it’s still gonna move. Taking structural movement into consideration caulk is, for me, the logical choice.

Tell your friends what a jackass I am!
Joe February 2, 2012 at 10:59 pm

I would like to know what kind of grout to use on myshowers floor i am regrouting there is a 1/4 inch gape and less for some areas. I bought sanded grout but have heard I made the wrong choice. And also in the corners it was grouted but was separated but reading your earlier posts I think I will caulk I plan to do this tomorrow please help  I have one other issue but it’s hard to explain I could send a picture if you have a email address that you feel comfortable giving out , I totally understand if not

Reply

Roger February 3, 2012 at 7:14 am

Hey Joe,

Dunno who told you that was the wrong grout but they’re wrong. Sanded grout it what you need for that. You can upload any photos you want to my site and I get them in a special super-secret area here in the back of the website. It’s guarded by midget ninjas and one large rabid ferret. You can do that here: Upload tile photos to FloorElf. Be sure to add your name to the photo so I know who it’s from. You can also email me at Roger@FloorElf.com – that email has no midget ninjas guarding it, though. :D

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Bart January 30, 2012 at 12:21 pm

Two years ago I had my shower redone by a low-bid contractor.  He’s long gone but he left me with a floor that is not sloped properly.  After two years of using a squeegee every day it is time to fix it.  I believe the only way is to rip out the floor and reinstall with proper slopes.  My worry is that I will be unable to find the same tile as was used originally.  Have you ever seen shower floors that have different tile than the walls and ceiling?  Any creative solutions?  Or is there an alternative to ripping out the floor?

Thanks,
Sucker in Texas

Reply

Roger January 30, 2012 at 5:25 pm

Hey Bart,

I do a lot of shower floors with different tile. Just find one that compliments or offsets your main tile and use it. No real alternative to fix the slope other than rebuilding it. If you get a tile that’s real close just turn it on the diagonal – no one will ever notice it’s different. :D

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Tracey January 24, 2012 at 4:05 pm

Hi Roger,
            I am a 48 yr old female in Sydney, Australia. No this is not some sick stalkers letter. I just wanted to let you know that my husband and I are renovating our bathroom and that your information has helped us a lot. Don’t you love how this internet thing closes the gap between our countries. “thanks mate”

Reply

Roger January 24, 2012 at 9:48 pm

Hi Tracey,

Thanks for letting me know! Always wanted to visit Sydney. One of these days…

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Eric Whiting January 23, 2012 at 1:00 pm

We have been struggling with this matter as the silicon in our shower went crappy after only one year. 

Enjoyed your article very much and appreciated the good advice and good humour  

Reply

Roger January 23, 2012 at 5:07 pm

Glad I could help Eric.

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Ian January 23, 2012 at 8:58 am

Hey Roger.  Let me start saying this was a great article as I have seen this question danced around and argued about constantly on countless forums.  I am glad to have read this as I have recently taken on a shower regrouting project.  Now on to my question…recently I have purchased a duplex, one unit I reside in and the other I rent out.  The idea being that later I can move and rent out the entire duplex.  The issue I am having is that there was some settleing on the backside of the house which both of the units all tiled master bathroom showers sit on.  The settleing of the house has stopped many years ago and the foundation is sound, but because of the settling the corners of the shower are below the water line and dont fully drain out if you were just to let the water sit there after showering.  It is nothing extreme to the point of a lot of water pooling in the corners, but as I would imagine any amount of pooling water is never a good thing.  The grout around the edges on that side of the shower is pretty much shot, I have scraped and dug out all grout (rotten and good) around all of the edges of the shower.  I then repeatedly shop-vacced any sort of dampness that was in the corners or edges after removing the grout and placed a fan on it for days allowing everything to dry out completely.  I would like to use something that I will not have to maintain very much and will last, so I am thinking of using Epoxy grout so that I will not have to come back and bother my renters and scrape caulk out every 3-5 years or so and reapply.  Some of the corners I had to dig into quite a bit to get the “bad” material completely out and I was wondering if I can pack as much grout into the corners and call it good or if there is other stronger more sealing material I will need to build up the corners with to allow for a better seal?  Also is the Epoxy grout going to be a good route to go?  I have dug up the bad grout and I am going to regrout the edges and “reseal” the old grout that is still in good shape on the tile floor of the shower.  Any advice or concerns you may have would be apprecaited.

Reply

Roger January 23, 2012 at 4:54 pm

Hey Ian,

Short of rebuilding the shower floors the epoxy grout would be your best bet at this point. You can fill those cracks with the epoxy and likely have no problem with it – depends entirely on how much your house moves. IF your house moves enough to overcome the bond of the epoxy to the tile – the grout will not crack, the tile will. Keep in mind that although epoxy is waterproof this is not going to waterproof anything because tile is not waterproof. But the epoxy will definitely last.

Reply

Rob January 20, 2012 at 4:39 pm

Roger –
First off, thanks for your article and advice. 

My tiled shower has what seems to be a large gap between tiles in the corner … I’d say a little more than 1/4 inch at the widest point.  The walls where the shower is built do tend to move some.  Long story short, I had concerns about this movement and I hired an independent structural engineer.  Our floor joist under that wall is lacking support and causing the wall to move some.  The structural engineer said it is not something that we NEED to fix and so at this point I don’t plan to fix it.  So, I would like to know your opinion on the best way to seal this rather large space in the corner of my shower that will likely continue to move in the future.  The material will need to cover a large gap and be flexible enough to allow some movement.  I heard something about a blocker or blocking rod … not sure what that would be or if I am on the right track.

Thanks again.

Reply

Roger January 20, 2012 at 8:38 pm

Hey Rob,

You can use backer rod and silicone. The backer rod is available at any big box store and is essentially a round rod of foam which can be stuffed into the gap to take up most of the space then go over it with silicone. The silicone will handle the movement.

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Chris January 18, 2012 at 7:49 am

Roger,  thanks for the tips. I am hoping my corner re-grout will go well. You are not a jackass. 

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kevbo January 13, 2012 at 9:09 pm

Based upon emails that I received from subscribing to posts in this thread, there was a post which was removed (and rightfully so) which equated the floor elf to some sort of fool who give advice like a tile setter from the 1960′s.
To that – I’d like to say this:  I would rather take any and all advice from a tiler from the 1960′s than from some “California contractor for 20 years”.  20 years would put us back to the 90′s.  As a contractor from Massachusetts, I’ve torn apart enough bathrooms with horrendous tile jobs installed in the 80′s and 90′s to know that these guys could have learned a thing or dozens from the guys of days gone by who did quality work.
Cheers to Mr. Floor Elf for giving some quality, sound advice for those looking to do some quality, sound work!

Reply

Roger January 13, 2012 at 9:38 pm

Thanks Kevbo! Yeah, my site got trolled yesterday, it was pretty humerous because while I was working my ass off in a shower at 2pm the ‘real tile pro’ was dumping brain feces all over my comment sections. Other readers attacked him back, made me laugh my ass off and feel all warm and fuzzy when I got home. :D You can see what I left and my response here if you care to. And you’re correct, I’d listen to hundreds of setters from the 60′s before I’d give one of these guys the time of day. People used to care about what they produced.

Thanks again.

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Margaret January 13, 2012 at 3:50 pm

In the shower corner, can you or should you use clear silicone caulk and then top it with the colored caulk that matches the grout?  Will one caulk adhere to the other.  Or is the colored caulk enough?
Thanks!!!

Reply

Roger January 13, 2012 at 8:58 pm

Hey Margaret,

Ideally a color-matched silicone (that matches the grout) would be used. Caulk will not stick to silicone (silicone WILL stick to caulk – weird, right? :D ). If you can’t find silicone then just caulk will be fine.

Reply

Devin January 12, 2012 at 11:12 am

can you grout and then caulk over top with silicone in corners of the shower? 

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Roger January 12, 2012 at 7:33 pm

Hey Devin,

You can, but the grout will eventually crack and compromise the bond of the silicone, then it really looks like crap. So it’s not a good idea to do that.

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Rick allard December 31, 2011 at 3:17 pm

any cogent diifferences between “phenoseal”(vinyl caulk) and Silicone caulk?

Reply

Roger December 31, 2011 at 3:42 pm

Hey Rick,

Yup, Phenoseal is not waterproof, silicone is. Phenoseal is only water resistant and is not for use below the water line.

From Dap:

DAP Phenoseal Vinyl Adhesive Caulk Does It All is a water based adhesive/sealant formula which is not recommended for use in below waterline applications (FOR BEST RESULTS: Do not use below waterline.)…

Based on the description of your application, we would generally recommend the use of a 100% Silicone Rubber Sealant.

This was sent to a customer after seeing re-emulsification of the product on and behind a shower seat. This simply means that when exposed to standing or continuous water phenoseal may turn to goop, a technical term meaning white gluey mess. :D

Stick with silicone.

Reply

Rick allard December 31, 2011 at 3:14 pm

A “seasoned” tiler champions the use of “phenoseal” (vinyl caulk) for all his caulking. Any real differences with that and Silicone caulk ?

Reply

Roger December 31, 2011 at 3:42 pm

Would that be different than a ‘seasoned’ user of the product in their own home? :D I bet it would.

Reply

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