Your grout is cracking for one reason and one reason only: your tile is moving. That’s it. Okay, that’s not it – Unless your grout is non-sanded and was installed in the last 28 days – your tile is moving. That’s it. Yes, 28 days has significance, it is the amount of time it took my teenage son to clean his room. It is also the amount of time it takes for grout to fully cure.
So let’s figure out why your grout is cracking:
Your grout is newly installed – incorrectly
If you do have grout that was installed within the last 28 days then your grout is not actually cracking – it is shrinking. Either your grout lines are too large for non-sanded grout (smaller than 1/8″) or it was incorrectly mixed. NO! You cannot simply mix up more and fill it in. Read this post about adding more grout to your grout lines.
If your grout is not fresh, well, you need to repair the reason your tile is moving. And stop using your pogo stick in the house. Diagnosing the reason your tile is moving is extremely varied. It could be anything from inadequate deflection in your flooring for the type of tile all the way up to and including the aforementioned pogo stick.
The most likely reasons your tile is moving:
Your tile does not have proper thinset coverage
The most common reason I run into is improper coverage. This simply means that there is not enough thinset beneath your tile to properly adhere it to your substrate and support it. If there are any unsupported areas beneath your tile along the edge or in the corner of the tile, walking on it will eventually work what little support it may have loose and the tile will move down and up every time you step on it. The tile moves, the grout does not. The grout loses the battle and starts to crack out. By ‘crack out’ I don’t mean like that ridiculous Intervention show on cable, I mean it will start to crack and come loose.
To fix this you need to remove and properly reinstall the tile. If it is only one tile it may be an isolated incident in your installation and you will be fine. If you have cracked grout all over your tile installation it was either improperly installed or . . .
Your subfloor is moving
If you have a wooden subfloor and your tile is directly installed to it – go pick out new tile. That is more than likely an improper installation. While tile can be installed directly to plywood it requires a VERY specific method. And I do mean very specific. More than likely it is simply installed improperly probably by someone that did not know any better. If it was properly installed over plywood, well, your grout wouldn’t be cracking. Start reading this paragraph all over. Or . . .
Your backerboard was improperly installed
If you have Hardiebacker, Durock, or any other type of cementious backerboard beneath your tile it should have been installed in the proper manner. It needs to have thinset beneath it, it needs to be screwed down (properly), it needs proper spacing, etc., etc. Read How to Install Backerboards for Floor Tile to see all the things that should have been done.
More than likely there is no thinset beneath your backerboard. Thinset is not used to adhere the backerboards in any way – it is used simply to fill voids beneath the backerboard. It is placed there specifically to prevent your tile from moving. Moving tile leads to cracking grout. But you knew that – or you should start reading this page all over. This would be another time to start shopping for new tile.
Other reasons your tile is moving
You do not have expansion space around the perimeter of your tiled room. No, the tile will not expand – but your walls do. If there is no space between your tile and walls it will force all the pressure into your tile. This will cause cracking grout and, eventually, ‘tenting’ of your tile.
You do not have expansion joints in your tile. For every application there are specific spans of tile which can be installed before a ‘soft joint’ is required. This is simply a grout joint filled with a matching caulk or silicone to allow for movement without cracking your grout or tenting your tile. Most of these measurements are over 25 feet. So in English: if your room is not 25 feet long or wide this is not the reason your grout is cracking.
If your tile is on concrete – directly on concrete – your slab may not have proper expansion joints or the tile installation did not honor those. If installing tile directly to concrete (and you should not) there needs to be a soft joint directly above, or two inches on either side, of the slabs expansion joints. If not your slab will move differently than your tile.
And there could be a host of other, less apparent or less common problems. However, if your grout is cracking it is probably for one of the reasons above. The method of repairing it depends entirely on why it is cracking. Most of it, as with most tile installation problems, is due to improper installation.
Or your pogo stick.
If you have any questions about the proper way to repair your tile or grout just leave a comment. I answer every one of them – really, look around the site. I’m just super cool like that.
Roger-
Great information! We are in a situaiotn similar to Jacalyn. We moved into a townhome (built in 2002) last year and had the bathroom professionally remodeled. We also had them install a heated floor. Since that time, two or three tiles came loose and were repaired by the remodeler. It is now a couple of months later and several more tiles are loose. The tile installer who did the floor and the recent repair said that he floor was moving too much and more tiles would come loose. He was right. I don’t know if they installed backerboard or not. I do know they had to replace some of the plywood subfloor, but the loose tiles are not just on that area. Is this the remodeler’s fault or some sort of issue with our floors/subflooring? Our floors (hardwood) do move somewhat in other areas of the house, but it seems that you indicate that a correct installation should prevent the tiles from coming loose. Also, the previous tile floor in the bathroom didn’t have any noticeable loose tiles (they were much smaller tiles though). I would appreciate your advice.
Thanks -Rob
Hey Rob,
The tile problems are due to excess movement in your flooring structure somewhere and/or your tile substrate not being fully supported (i.e. no thinset beneath the backer). Whether your floor was stout enough for that installation is essentially irrelevant – it is up to your installer or contractor to ensure your floor is built to wherever it needs to be to support whatever is being installed upon it. That is the job of your contractor or remodeler. If the floor is moving too much, and he knows it, he should also know that it is his responsibility to build it to the point that it does not. Honestly – I would tell them to redo the entire floor. Even better, tell them you’ll get someone qualified to do it correctly and send them the bill. It’s on them – no question about it.
we are living nearly for twenty years in this house ,just last week I saw on my floor while i walk my tiles grouting falling apart and the floor is making a a bit of noise as if the tile without the grounting its craking
saro
Hi Saro,
It sounds as if your substrate – the layer beneath your tile, has become loose or is no longer solidly attached. The movement will cause the bond of the tile to come loose, the first sign is cracking grout.
Hi there, great site. I’ve learned a lot so far…let’s hope it continues!
My husband and I bought an older townhouse last year. The main bathroom renovations were done by a previous owner, likely at least 8-10 years ago. Last month I noticed the floor grout (ceramic tiles I believe) cracked and chipping in a couple of spots. One thing we noticed after we moved in was the floor creaks in the bathroom, which after reading your site, makes me believe that the floor is moving too much. There is in-floor heating throughout the bathroom as well. Could this be a contributing factor? Does the heat actually age or cause pre-mature failure of the grout? I have started to remove the grout by hand but thought I should ask you first if I actually need to take up the tile and do a much bigger job.
The sad part is I probably know you are going to say do the whole thing, I just REALLY want you to say no you don’t have to….
Hi Jacalyn,
No, you don’t have to. Now that I’ve lied to you, I’ll tell you the truth.
In-floor heating does not cause any type of premature failure or compromise the installation in any manner provided it is installed correctly. Yours apparently was not. It could be due to any number of things – I can think of about 7 right off the top of my head. All of which require redoing the entire floor at least from the substrate up. If you have adequate support for the structure that would likely be the minimum. Cracking grout lines are indicative of movement somewhere in the substrate. Bottom line is that your installation is not properly supported somewhere beneath your tile. Many times with in-floor heating and an inexperienced installer it is simply a matter of inadequate coverage – your tile doesn’t have enough coverage. The heating elements require a different installation technique – DIY’ers normally lack that without proper research.
Sorry.
Roger,
Thanks for the quick reply, too bad it’s the answer I was dreading. I was hoping that since the grout was coming out in larger chunks it was something wrong with the grout/heating instead of the substrate. We have a young baby at home and don’t have the time/money to completely re-do the floor. There is other tile work in the house that seems just fine, so you are likely right about the incorrect installation with the heating element.
Guess I better start re-reading your information to figure out how to get started….ugh…
Had large shower built in vacation home 2 yrs ago. Used rock like tile on the 3×6 ft shower floor. Use this vacation home/shower about 4 wks a year. The grout is now cracking and there is a small water leak outside the shower where it meets the floor. Got contractor to come by. He is being a total A-hole. Would prefer not to talk to him again. Any suggestions? My husband wants to fix the grout where its cracked. I think all the grout needs to be removed. I believe they used nonsand grout. These grout lines are much larger than 1/8th inch. Thanks for your help!
Hi Gina,
If the cracking is due to movement in the substrate then regrouting or fixing it won’t do any good. If it is due to the incorrect type of grout then it should be removed and replaced with the correct type of grout. If it is unsanded then yes, it is incorrect. I don’t know how long simply fixing it or filling in the cracks will last. It would be best to replace it.
The water leak, however, has absolutely nothing to do with your grout. It is an indication that the waterproofing (if it exists) is compromised in some manner somewhere in that base. To determine where would likely require completely removing and rebuilding the base. If it is leaking then it is the responsibility of your contractor. He is likely being an asshole because A: he is an asshole, and B: he knows it’s his responsibility.
Hi! My husband and I bought a new construction home about 5 months ago and recently we have noticed very small hairline cracks where the tile and grout meet. There doesn’t seem to be any movement in the floor so is this something we should approach the builder over or is it normal. No grout is coming out and none of the tiles are cracked. Thanks for the advice!
Hi Lori,
If the tiny cracks were not there previously and have developed over time then yes, you should approach the builder about it so he can get his sub back in there to take a look at it. If they were not there previously it is indicative of movement. You won’t necessarily be able to see the movement, but over time it will eventually crack the grout out of the grout lines. Little micro-movements expand and contract the tile and the underlying structure and are visually undetectable – but they are there and they will compromise your grout lines. It MAY be due simply to improper mixing of the grout – too much water – which will cause it to shrink excessively as it cures over time.
To give you a more accurate idea of possible causes, though, I would need a lot more information about the specific structure, tile, and products used in your installation. Give the builder a chance to handle it first, they will likely remedy it for you. It is not normal! It may be common, but not normal.
i’m cutting 12 inch ceramic tiles with a 10 inch wet saw. the saw if fairly new and only has one job on the blade. the blade on the saw is the one that came with it. (rigid) I’m installing a diamond pattern and every time i try to cut corner to corner the corners break. Could it be my blade already ? any info you could supply would be great . thanx
P.S. i’ve been reading some of your posts …..great info …you rock.
Hey Eric,
Nope – it isn’t your blade already – it’s your blade still. The stock blades sold with most saws are normally junk. Spend some money on a porcelain wet-saw blade and it’ll make a world of difference.
YOU rock!
Some of the tiles on our 3 month old tile floor are loose and the grout is cracking. The installer came back over to look at it and pulled up some of the 18 x 18 tiles, to find that they came up rather easily, with no thinset sticking to the back of them at all. The grout wasn’t difficult to knock off the tile either. You can see where the thinset was spread correctly, and even see the cross stripes from the bottom of the tile in the thinset. But it doesn’t appear that they ever adhered properly. We had 1/4 backer board layed beneath, and that is not cracked at all, so it’s not an issue of support beneath. Another spectator thinks the tile may be bad, or that a different thinset should have been used with porcelain tile. Any ideas? The new cabinets are in and now it’s sounding like we need to tear up the entire floor and start over.
Hey Maureen,
Your tile is not bad, the installation technique was. I’ve used about every thinset under the sun for porcelain, everything (except the $5.00/bag crap) will at the very least stick to the tile and make for a successful installation if done correctly. It sounds like the thinset was mixed too dry, allowed to skin over before setting a tile to it, and the tile was not backbuttered. In any case it’s a matter of the tile not being correctly installed and bedded into the thinset. The grout cracked for that reason. It should be removed and reinstalled correctly, otherwise it will continue to happen.
hi im am contacting you about my floor that i had put ceramic tiles on. i have put many tile floors down. but for some reason these floor the grout keeps cracking and chipping out. i put a beam under my floor and shimmed the floor joists that were not touching the beam the house is very old. there was a 1″ floor board down on the floor and then i put a 3/4″ plywood down on that. i screwed the floor down every 2″ to 3″ inches then i made my thinset and spread it out with a 1/4″ notched troul. and placed the tiles in the thinset letting the plop in place to let the air out from under them. i let the floor set for a hole day then i grouted the whole floor with non sand grout the grout keeps cracking so i took all the grout out and changed all the loose tiles and changed broke tiles and regrouted the floor and 3 days later its cracking again what could be the problem. would the floor having waves in it cause this problem cause the floor does have a couple small ups and downs in the floor.
Hi Wayne,
The waves in the floor may be part of the problem but the biggest problem is that it sounds like you installed your tile directly to the plywood. Is that correct? Plywood will expand and contract way too much for a tile installation. While tile can be installed to plywood it needs to be a very specific type of plywood with a very specific installation method. You should have a suitable substrate for your tile installed over the plywood such as cement backerboard or ditra. Until there is a suitable substrate beneath your tile it will continue to crack.
Just thought I’d share my experience. I did my own tile floor installation in my kitchen about 8 years ago and have regretted it ever since. While I thought I had the knowledge I made several critical errors. The floor I replaced was a vinyl floor. Well, actually when I pulled up the vinyl floor it had another vinyl floor under it with a layer of quarter-inch luan plywood in between. That left me with the original subfloor as a starting point. I put down one layer of quarter-inch backer board nailed down with ring shank nails. I did not put down a layer of thinset or another layer of backer board running in the opposite direction – maybe should have just used a single layer of the thicker type backer board. I did use lots of nails and taped the seams of the backer board properly. When I laid the tiles, used a very wide spacer between them, at least a half-inch to give it a Spanish look. Since then several times a year I have to regrout 5 or 6 sections of the floor where the sanded grout keeps breaking loose. Fortunately no tiles have come up so I guess I at least set those correctly. I really want to tear the whole thing out and put a vinyl floor back in its place again… great, more work! To recap my most obvious errors:
1. The house is 28 years old and is built on shrink-swell soil so it still ‘moves’ a lot so probably not a good candidate for a tile floor anyway.
2. Backer board used was too thin and not applied correctly with thinset between subfloor and backer board.
3. Spacing between tiles much too wide.
Hope you have better luck.
Thanks Andy. I’m sure it helps people when it doesn’t always come from the insane elf.
Hi Roger
I am living in a very old house my father put 2 concrete mixer loads to my existing foundation abt 8 years ago. Recently my tiles started to pick up and crack or just comes out neatly. This scares me as I don’t know what could be causing this
My house has a lot of cracks . Please offer any assistance with these problems as it would be much appreciated.
Hi Shantal,
It could be doing that for several different reasons – or a combination of a few. The first thing that comes to mind is the thickness of the concrete which was poured over your existing foundation. If not properly poured, mixed, or a smaller than normal thickness it may not be stable enough for a tile installation. If the tile were installed before the concrete was fully cured (28 days) it will cause the tile and mortar to be less than stable. The mixture of the concrete may also be part of the problem, if mixed incorrectly it may not cure properly.
The bottom line is that something is incorrect below your tile installation. Whether it is the concrete or the way the tile was installed is something I really can’t tell you – I can’t see it from here.
Your best bet would be to have a professional contractor come in and take a look at it for you.
We have a new home, six months old. Currently we are having an ongoing issue with grout separating across the kitchen eat in area that extends across a hall and into our laundry room. The home sits on a concrete slab and the tile was regrouted once before when we notified our builder. There is an underlayment that is preventing the tile from cracking but does not prevent the grout from doing the same. We realize the house is going to “settle,” however I am wondering if there is a crack in the slab creating this issue as it extends from one end to the other as the patio just outside the kitchen window has a crack line that follows the line inside the house. I didn’t think that the two areas poured together, but am wondering if something else is going on. Any info. would be greatly appreciated!
Hey Michelle,
That crack is transferring up through your tile installation. Is it an actual crack – or an expansion joint in the concrete? If it’s an expansion joint or saw-cut joint it should have been compensated for in the tile installation itself with a soft-joint directly above it. If it is an actual crack then it’s an issue with the concrete. While some membranes such as ditra will not allow normal cracks to affect the tile or grout – not everything can be compensated for if the concrete was not properly cut or fabricated with movement joints at correct intervals.
I can likely help more if I knew exactly what type of concrete ‘crack’ you’re dealing with there and which specific underlayment is beneath your tile.
I have a question about crack prevention in a heated floor.I have an old house that I am remodeling. It has 2×8 floor joists that are 16 inches on center. 1inch T&G run diagonal to the joists. New 3/4inch plywood glued and screwed to that. !/4 inch hardibacker thinset and screwed to that. Then I put down electric coils for in floor heat. I then used a latex primer and put down level quick to embed the coils. I want to put down 18×18 inch travertine. What can I do to prevent cracking in the tiles. I have some extra Kerdi from my shower, can I use that? Perhaps Redgaurd? I do not have enough room to use Ditra. What would you suggest?
Hey Kevin,
With the substrate you’ve created you don’t need a crack prevention membrane – I don’t think it’s gonna go anywhere. Your best bet for that installation, if you’re worried about it, would be to use a highly modified, or ‘flex’, thinset. It’s very expensive but I know Laticrete makes one that will flex an awful lot without affecting the bond or creating stresses on the tile or stone. The one I’ve used is Laticrete’s 125 sound and crack suppression mortar. It’s great stuff.
We installed a “tileredi” shower base per their instructions at the time, which was to use an adhesive such as liquid nails. (They now recommend a mortar base.) We put weight on the shower pan to make sure that we had a good connection. There is one spot, about 6 x 8 area that did not adhere and has a little movement when we step on that area. We can’t pull the base up and are contemplating what to use due to the movement. We have wondered whether grout caulk would have enough “give” to not crack, use an epoxy grout, or just cover the whole base with cultured marble, which of course is expensive. Thank you in advance for your answer.
Hi Susan,
The absolute best thing to do would be to replace it. The problem with using liquid nails, or a like adhesive, is that it will leave voids beneath the pan which are not fully supported – that’s why they now recommend mortar. But you knew that – and it doesn’t help.
The only thing that would be stable enough to withstand SOME movement would be either 100% silicone, which would flex quite a bit but would need to be replaced periodically, or epoxy grout, which would actually have NO give to it and may, instead, cause your tiles to crack. Short of replacing the base silicone would be your best bet. Cultured ‘marble’ may actually end up cracking eventually – it is only plastic – really. (I hate the stuff, can you tell?)
I took out the old tile in the bathroom floor to update it. The subfloor was in great shape so i put new tile down using thin set premixed. Waited 24-36 hours before i grouted using sanded grout due to the grout line was 1/4″. I follow all the instruction on the bag waited 24 hrs before fullly walking on the tile some of the grout is cracking What is the easist way to fix this if any. The grout areas that are cracking is only about 5 feet do i redo them and spray them with water to lengthen the drying time for the grout
Hey Matt,
The reason your grout lines are cracking is because your tile is moving. The reason your tile is moving is likely due to a combination of an improper substrate (I’m assuming the subfloor you’re talking about was wood?) and using pre-mixed ‘thinset’. This isn’t actually thinset – it’s mastic with sand in it. If you used 12 x 12 inch tiles you will likely find, if you were to pull on up, that toward the center of the tile the setting material has not cured – it’s still wet. This is because the pre-mixed stuff requires air to cure whereas regular thinset mortar cures through an entirely chemical process – it will cure under water – literally. Putting a 12 inch tile over it is just like putting the lid back on the bucket – it will never fully cure.
Unfortunately the only fix that will last would be to take out the tile and prepare a proper substrate and use powdered thinset mortar to set your tiles. You can get your grout to cure properly over time by spraying it down as you describe but if your tile is moving it will never last.
What is the best brand of grout sealer to use?
Hey GS,
I like StoneTech sealer made by DuPont. Sealers are an item that you get what you pay for. In other words, as a general rule, the more expensive it is the better.
I have a question with my tiles and grouting. Our house is nearly 8 years old and in the last 6 months or so we have had our grout coming out in pieces and cracking or moving away from our tiles. This is happening throughout our whole house except the bathrooms. A couple of tiles have cracked in the corners where is adjoins a wall. Also quite a few of our tiles now make loud creaking noises when you walk on them as if they were hollow underneath. We were told by somebody to check our water meter as we might have an underground pipe leaking causing moisture in the slab. We checked the water meter over an 8 hour period where it didn’t move so I’m assuming we don’t have any water leaks. Do you have any ideas. We are unsure where to go from here as half our house is tiled and we only have a few spares. What are your suggestions? Thanks heaps. Regards, Jackie
Hi Jackie,
While excess moisture in a slab can cause tiles to become loose – eventually – it would take an extreme amount to do this. Water does not effect thinset when it is properly installed, so the chances of that being the cause of your problem are almost zero.
You stated that some of your tiles have cracked in the corners where they adjoin a wall – I believe that a lack of expansion joints and soft joints throughout the installation is probably the likely cause. You can read about soft joints and what they are here: What are soft joints in a tile installation That post will describe when they should be used.
Basically stated – you need expansion joints all the way around the perimeter of your installation as well as throughout the center after a certain distance. Without these the walls, due to normal seasonal movement, will expand and push on the sides of tiles directly against them. This creates sideways, or sheer, stress on the entire installation. Once this happens and the tile becomes debonded from the concrete due to this stress, something as simple as walking on them may crack them since they are no longer fully supported or adhered to the concrete. This movement will also create stress on your grout and cause it to become loose.
If this is your problem about the only solution short of replacing it all would be to remove the tiles around the walls, cut about 1/4″ off of them and re-install them. You will also need to remove any ‘hollow’ sounding tiles which have already become loose and install soft joints throughout the remainder. This will not guarantee that you will not have any more problems – there may be loose tiles that simply do not sound hollow yet, complete replacement is about the only guaranteed solution.
Please don’t shoot me, I just deliver bad news.
Thank you so much for your help Roger. I did expect the news to be bad. Might have to ask Santa for new flooring now!
Hi,
Two years ago, my husband and I bought a condo above a retail store in a downtown area. Until last month, we have had no problems with the shower. Now the new tenant in the retail shop below is complaining that our shower is leaking through their ceiling. This never happened with the old tenant. The problem is, there were a great deal of leasehold improvements going on by the new retailer. So much so that our condo floor literally vibrated every morning for several weeks. The vibration was as bothersome as the noise. It sounded as if concrete was being drilled or jack-hammered(which it may have been). The retailer is insisting that we fix the problem. A plumber said it is not a plumbing issue and appears to be grout or caulk related. So now we are looking for a tile person. My primary question is…Is it possible that the vibration compromised our grouting? If that is possible, would it have probably happened at some point anyway? The condo is about 7 years old.
Thanks for any insight you can lend.
Lauren
Hey Lauren, sorry for the delayed reply – damn day job and all.
It is possible that continuous vibration would compromise your grout. The problem with that, though, lies in the fact that grout has nothing to do with waterproofing in a properly constructed shower – it’s waterproof before one tile is installed. If, however, your shower were not properly waterproofed (like tile installed directly to drywall) then the grout could have been keeping most of the moisture from behind the tile and the vibration loosened it and cause it to allow more water behind there. But if it isn’t waterproofed properly then yes, it would likely have happened at some point anyway.
Here’s the key question to ask: Does this leak only occur while the shower is being used or just afterward, or is it a continuous or random leak. If the leak has anything to do with the shower construction it will only happen during or shortly after the shower is used.
Give me more details and I’ll see if I can help you nail down the actual cause of it, if it is indeed from the shower construction or tile installation. I’m assuming it is a stand-up shower and not one with a tub? And, if you know, the substrate type in your condo is likely gypcrete (like concrete but lighter) and not wood? I’m assuming this because you stated it’s only 7 years old. The gypcrete, if not properly barred and supported, could have been compromised by the vibration as well. If that is the case, depending on the type of shower construction, it may have compromised your shower as well.
Hi Roger,
Thanks so much for your reply. I do know that the leak below does only occur during or right after the shower is used. I am not sure of the materials used in construction, however. It just seems odd that there was never a leak until the construction on the first level began. If not a vibration issue, I wonder if they could have hit something on their ceiling which loosened something on our shower floor. I will try to find out how this shower was constructed, it at all possible.
Thanks again so much,
Lauren
Hey Lauren,
If the floor of your condo is not wood then it would be either gypcrete or another portland-based product. Vibration can cause cracks and shifts in these products if they are not properly anchored. A shift or a crack such as that may compromise your shower construction, depending on how it was built. Did the plumber check the drain pipe as well?
I need help! had a home built 18 months ago. been having problems with the main floor tiling (aprox 250 sq ft) its a hallway and kitchen. shortly after we moved in we noticed grout cracking, then visible “voids” then loose tiles. builder came in and patched areas. more tiles cracked and loosened, and more grout cracking and chipping away. builder came in and removed all grout, replaced broken/loose tiles and regrouted the entire area. 6 months later its doing the exact same thing. they want to come in and re-grout once again. we think something more serious is going on. forgot to mention that when they re-grouted they added latex to the grout. why is this happening and what do u suggest we do? thanks
Hi Amber,
Unfortunately something more serious is going on – there is excess movement in your substrate. The spaces in the subfloor between the joists will flex the tiniest bit as they are walked upon. If not properly supported there is not enough strength for a tile installation to last. Tell the builder the grout is not the problem – the lack of proper deflection ratio is. When tile is spec’d for flooring the builder is responsible for ensuring the floor will support the chosen installation – yours does not. It is on your builder to rectify this – it’s his responsibility.
What is happening is the tiny micro-movements from being walked on are too much movement for a tile installation. These movements will slowly grind away the grout from the sides of the tile (grout sticks to the sides of the tile – not the substrate) When this area is compromised enough it will eventually start coming out in chunks. Eventually this movement will also wear away the bond between the tile and substrate. Most basic thinsets will not handle excess movement.
The only remedy for your floor is to remove it, beef up the floor enough for tile (L360 for ceramic or porcelain and L720 for stone – your builder should know what that means) and replace it. Again – it is your builder’s responsibility to ensure this in the first place.
For those wondering – adding latex to grout will give it flexibility to an extent but will not make up for an improper substrate. Make him fix it or I’ll send Guedo after him!
Thank you so much for your help! They’ve regrouted once again about 2 weeks ago and already we have air bubbles and cracking. Now for the big fight! They said they would come in and literally tear apart my entire main floor (probably do some damage in the process) rip out all my kitchen cabinets, baseboards, and powder Room. Remove existing tile and re-install. Once they’ve done that I think it best I sell! In tge meantime I need to figure out how much compensation to seek from them!
Hey Amber,
Sorry you’re having the problem but I really love it when builders get pissed due to their own negligence. He knows it and he’s pissed that you do too now. That makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
You may be right to sell. Or, you can wait and see if they install it the same way again (I’m almost positive they probably will ) and see how long it takes to crack. Then sue, then sell.
I’m a little ass, aren’t I?
Glad I could help.
This is great advice. Thanks so much!
Hi Roger,
I just made my first run at tiling last week. The good news is that I followed the correct procedure for installing the backerboard and prepping the surface (I didn’t find your site until after the tile job, but luckily my initial research lead me to the correct installation). The bad news is that after laying the tile, 3 of my tiles are loose. It is a small entry way about 3′ x 3′ tiled with slate. After letting the tile sit for 24 hours I walked on it and found a few loose tiles, I was able to pick them up and see that there was very little to no thinset residue on the bottom. The other tiles seem to be very sturdy and I can’t lift them off the thinset or nudge them whatsoever. I guess this leads me to believe I did not push these tiles into the mortar. Would you agree? I still have not grouted so I am hoping this will make a fix easier. Can I simply scrape down the thinset below the loose tiles, apply new mortar and let them set? I wasn’t sure if new mortar would properly adhere to dried mortar? I just want to make sure the tile job will last!
A few other questions:
Can you continue you use mortar that has been in an open bag (I know you can’t re-use grout left in open packaging, but not sure about thinset)?
What’s the best way to ensure that there is no “lippage” as you call it? Due to the nature of the slate the tile thicknesses are slightly varying so I had a hard time making sure it was all flat but did my best.
Finally, these tiles are surrounding on 2 sides by wood flooring, one side by a stairway and the other by the front door. The tile is the same height as the wood floors (no transition). I was told that grout will not hold up next to wood floor due to expansion and contraction. Is this true and should I use a matching caulk instead of grout in those areas?
You advice is much appreciated!
Nick
Hey Nick,
Yes, you can scrape down the thinset that is currently down on your substrate and reset the tiles. It will adhere to the cured thinset that you cannot get off just fine.
Yes, you can use the mortar in the open bag as long as it hasn’t been wet or subjected to moisture. (You can actually do that with grout as well) The best way to ensure against lippage is to spread the thinset on the floor and also on the back of the tile. This doubles the amount of thinset beneath the tile and gives you more room to move the tile up or down as needed. I just wrote a post about absolutely flat floor tile in which I explain my method. That said, slate is actually meant to have the uneven surfaces, it’s part of the look of slate. However, you do want to eliminate as many height differences from tile to tile as you possibly can.
Yes, you should use a matching caulk rather than grout. The grout will not last due to the expansion and contraction in the wood.
Nice to see somebody that has actually researched their project – well done!
Thanks for the help Roger, I am now confident that my tile job will be successful.
Ok, good news- I cleaned up the old thinset and properly placed the tiles. Everything is nice and sturdy.
Just one little… embarrassing problem. I was so focused on making sure the tiles were in place and even that I accidentally put one tile in backside up. Obviously you can’t really tell because I didn’t even notice until the next day when I got down on the ground and looked closely. But I did catch that the surface is a slightly different texture (I am working with slate). I haven’t sealed or grouted yet… my question is if I just leave the tile as is will any harm be done? Will it take the sealer the same as the rest of the tiles?
My fear is if I pull it up again I will never get the front side face clean enough to resuse because I back buttered it. The tile is very hard to find and naturally very expensive. I would have to order another case which I really do not want to pay for.
Boy do I feel dumb! Thanks again for your help.
Nick
Hey Nick,
Don’t worry, I’ve done way more embarrassing stuff than that. This one time we had a case of scotch and my buddy walked in with a platypus and… *ahem* nevermind.
Anyway, no harm will be done at all by leaving it in place. It’s just a matter of how much the look is going to annoy you (or your wife). As long as you don’t use an enhancing sealer it will always look the same compared to the other tiles as it does now. It will take the sealer the same as the front. If you set it correctly, and it sounds like you did, not only will you not be able to reuse it – you will never get it up in one piece. (That’s good) You can leave it just as it is as long as you can tolerate the look. And, down the road, if you find it irritates you too much you can always replace it then.
Glad I’m not the only one that has ever done that.
Question. My grout is cracking out in my kitchen. We used large 18X18 tiles and I started out a new helper and showed him how to do it and then had an emergency and left.
I found out later he used construction adhesive to glue the Hardibacker (1/4″) rather than thinset. He then mixed too much thinset at once and by the time he had a few rows in the thinset was probably set too much. Also, that large of tile, you should butter the tile and place a notched trowel of thinset on the floor. He later admitted to not “buttering the tile” and just put thinset on the floor. Not all of the grout is cracking completely out everywhere. Mostly the tiles I can knock on and hear that they are hollow. Do you think I could just remove the grout, fix the “hollow” tiles correctly and re grout or am I doomed with the hardibacker installation as well? IF so I have kitchen cabinets installed with granite. Cannot demo the entire kitchen to get under the hardibacker. Please advise. Thanks Kevin (thought of redoing accessible tile with flex thinset)
Hi Kevin,
You flogged your new helper, right?
Unfortunately, as I constantly remind people, your tile installation is only as durable as the substrate on which it is installed. Your tile is installed on a substrate which will not last in the long term. The problem with using construction adhesive (unless it was trowelled on) is that the space between the beads of adhesive have nothing to support the backerboard. And 1/4″ backerboard has even less rigidity than 1/2″ – which is perfectly fine as long as it is fully supported. Using construction adhesive (I’m assuming pl glue or something similar from a tube) actually weakens your substrate by creating the spaces I’ve mentioned above.
It needs to come out and be done correctly if you want it to last.
You can indeed pull the ‘hollow’ tiles and reset them correctly. That only means, though, that they would be correctly and fully attached to a moving substrate. You will still have the cracking grout (although it would take a bit longer to show up) and possibility of cracking tile. There is a (little) bit of good news in that regard, though. You’ve used 1/4″ backerboard which is easily busted. So you can take out the tile and save as many as you can – it sounds like that would be the bulk of them – and remove the backerboard. You can scribe or cut the backerboard along the toe-kicks (you don’t need to cut it all the way through, just a scribe line) and simply lift the board up from the kitchen side and it should bust off fairly cleanly along the cabinets.
Flexible or highly modified thinset is great stuff but rarely makes up for incorrect installation. It’s more for use in areas where excessive movement is uncontrollable like my porch in the middle of winter. It won’t save the tile in your kitchen – sorry.
I’ve had some tiling done in back entry way, bathroom and laundry room. I’m finding small hair line cracks all over. I had a professional Tiler put it in…he fixed one area…took the grout out and put it back in. Now, I’m finding little cracks all over the floor, including the area that he fixed!!!! Should I get a second opinion from another tile installer….should I have him just replace all the grout…or should I have him redo all of it? Can you reuse tile that has already been layed or would I have to buy new tile?
Theresa
Hi Theresa,
This could be one of two things. It could be either incorrectly mixed grout or movement in the substrate. Since you said he has already replaced some of it and the same thing happened I think it is the latter of the two. That would mean the tile should be taken out and replaced on a properly prepared substrate. 95% of the time – no, you cannot reuse tile that has already been installed.
You should get a third party to take a look at it and see what is happening. It’s really the only way to get a definitive answer as to what is actually happening.
Hi Steve,
My husband and I installed a tile floor in our bathroom over a year ago. We used 3/8 concrete backerboard screwed down to the subfloor every 6 inches, 1/4 by 12 inch ceramic tile with sanded grout lines 1/4 wide, with thinset very carefully mixed to medium-thick pancake batter consistency. Our grout lines are starting to crack along the entire length of the seams, and one area of grout in a traffic way has started to come up in little chunks. Certain tiles are definitely loose, and we really need to get this fixed! Our house is less than 10 years old, and is still settling, so we think that is probably the cause. How can we go about fixing these grout lines? Is there any way to allow for settling?
Thanks,
Marie
Hi Marie,
It sounds like a combination of two things causing your grout problems – the house settling being neither of them.
I could be wrong (just ask my wife – she’ll tell you) but it sounds like you did not use fiberglass mesh tape over the seams in the backerboard – that’s why it’s cracking along the seams. The individual pieces are moving independently. And it also sounds as if you did not place thinset beneath the backerboards to fully support it.
Unfortunately the only viable solution is to start over and properly prepare the substrate with thinset beneath the backerboard and alkali-resistant mesh tape over all the seams to give you a monolithic, fully supported substrate for your tile installation. If the substrate moves or is not fully supported the grout will crack, tiles will become loose and begin to move and, eventually, tile will start to crack.
I used a sanded grout with polymer by Keracolor, and used 1/4″ spacers. How would I be able to tell if there is movement? I layed hardiebacker cement board over plywood, and put screws in per manufaturer spec in an 8″ by 8″ pattern throughout each peice of backer board. I feel confident that I used enough mortar under each tile. It has only been 2 months should I give it more time to see if it begins to crack in other places? Or is there already enough evidence that it is indeed pulling away due to the dreaded shrinkage. If this is the problem do I have to replace all the grouting or just where the grout is pulling away. Thanks allot for help, I really appreciate it.
Hey Shawn,
The best indicator of movement is the grout actually cracking out of the joint in pieces or turning to powder from being literally ground into dust from the tiles rubbing against it when they are stepped upon. If the grout is still in one piece (ie none has cracked out in chunks) then it’s likely that it is only shrinking. If there was not ‘soggy’ or brittle, soft plywood under any of the areas and you placed mortar beneath the backerboard before screwing it down it is probably not movement.
The two things that you’ve described that lead me to believe it is shrinking is that they are ‘cracking’ in a straight line and only against the tile edge and the fact that you mixed more water with your grout. If it were due to movement the straight line would be very rare – it’ll crack all over the place randomly. It would be best to replace it all but you may be fine just replacing what is shrinking. If you do that, though, be aware that more of it may shrink in a different area later on down the road.
I installed new tile floors in my upstairs bathrooms the first week of May 2010. I recently noticed the grout lines are cracking in both bathrooms. The grout is cracking along a line from end to end in a series of tiles that stretches from wall to wall. They differ in lengths from 3 to 6 feet. I’ve looked online at similiar situations. I’ve come to the conclusion that I didn’t pack the grout lines deep enough, and/or when I was grouting I was using grout that had hardened and I would add water to make it the right consistency. In speaking with a friend I’ve come to find out that is a bad idea. The grout is not crumbling it is actually cracking away from the edge of the tiles and it runs from end to end consistently. I am starting to think I did not pack it in enough. What do you think, and how should I fix it?
Hi Shawn,
You did not state whether you used sanded or unsanded grout for your floors. If it is sanded grout and your grout lines are wider than 1/16″ then it should be removed and replaced with sanded grout. If you used sanded (and added water to the mix) it may have indeed shrunk on you. You need to ensure there is no movement in the tile but if it is simply pulling away from the tile and not crumbling or turning to powder it sounds like shrinking to me.
The correct and best way to fix it would be to remove all that grout and replace it with new grout. Never add more water to the grout once you mix it, it weakens the grout and will cause shrinkage (that’s a word, Seinfeld says so). I know it’s counter-intuitive for us guys but follow the mixing directions on the bag – including the slaking. If followed correctly you should have plenty of time to get it grouted without it getting hard in the bucket.
I have a tiled upper deck above rooms below. I have sealed the grout which the contractor failed to do and stopped most of the rain from causing damage below. I now have a prolem where the open tile deck ends and a metal corrigated roofing starts I have repeadedly used grout but after drying it cracks. Do you reccomend a drywall tape before caulking or grouting this seam? It is about 20 feet long and about a quarter inch wide gap. Regards Steve
Hi Steve,
Tiled decks are a very special animal. When transitioning from one material (tile) to another (corrugated roofing) there needs to be a movement joint of some type starting below the tile in the form of an anti-fracture membrane or uncoupling membrane, and transferred through all the way to the top plane of both materials. The upper portion of this would be either a 100% silicone or a urethane-based sealant – grout will not do it. It is cracking for the same reason as most – movement.
Any joint between two different substrates needs to allow for different expansion and contraction of the two materials – they will move differently. The tile may (will) expand more slowly and less than the corrugated roofing as it gets warmer. The problem has nothing to do with water unless freezing is an issue. It has to do with movement control. You need to allow for a different expansion rate at that joint between two materials.
Drywall tape will do nothing for you. The last row of tile should be removed, an anti-fracture membrane installed, and the tile replaced, then that joint needs to be caulked with a flexible sealant. You have three different things pushing on your grout from different directions and at different pressures – no type of regular grout will withstand that. It needs flexibility. You can attempt to simply remove the grout and fill it with a flexible sealant instead without the anti-fracture membrane but in the long term it may not last – I don’t know without having specifics about your particular installation. Go ahead and try the flexible sealant, if your tile was correctly installed you should be fine.
Now, with all that said (typed), if you have a leak in that porch and it is compromising the ceiling no amount of sealer will be a permanent solution – your tile is installed incorrectly. When correctly installed your porch should have been absolutely waterproof before a piece of tile was touched. Substrates like porches over living areas and showers are always waterproofed at the substrate. You should be installing tile essentially in or on a waterproof box. If you are attempting to waterproof it by placing materials or products over the top of your tile it is incorrectly installed.