How to Install Cement Backerboard for Floor Tile

by Roger

The days of grabbing a three dollar bag of “thinset” and sticking floor tile right to the plywood in a bathroom are long gone (for professionals, anyway). For a proper tile installation you need a proper substrate. One of the most readily available are cement backerboards.  These include products such as Hardiebacker, Durock, Fiberboard, wonderboard and a host of others.

When properly installed on your floor it is an ideal tile substrate for a quality and lasting installation. Notice I said typed “properly installed”? Laying them down on the floor and shooting drywall screws through them does not constitute proper installation.

Choose your weapon. I prefer Hardiebacker or Fiberboard. Whichever you choose make sure you get the proper thickness. With rare exception the 1/2″ variety would be the best choice simply because I like to overbuild stuff. With proper floor framing and deflection ratios, though, you can use 1/4″ to minimize height differences. This is not to say that 1/2″ adds significant sturdiness to your floor – it does not.

Dry fitting Backerboard on floor

Dry fitting Backerboard on floor

You need to realize that cement backerboards, or just about any tile flooring substrate, does not add deflection stability to your floor. That is the up and down movement in your floor when you walk, jump, or use a pogo stick on your floor. The backerboards will not significantly diminish that movement. This needs to be addressed by adjusting your floor joists and framing – not by adding stuff on top of them. If your floor is bouncy without the backerboards it will still be bouncy with them.

Bouncy is not good for tile. (There’s a sentence I never thought I would say type.) I will, however, address deflection ratio in another post.

Start by ‘dry fitting’ all your pieces. This simply means cut and lay your pieces into the room without attaching them. Get all your pieces cut, holes cut out, and doorways undercut to fit and lay everything in there just like it will be when installed. This saves a load of time, mess, and headaches.

Backerboards dry fitted into room

Backerboards dry fitted - notice gaps in seams

The joints in backerboards should be staggered. that just means that none of the seams should line up across the room and no four corners should be placed together. By staggering the seams you add strength to the installation simply by not having a significant weak point in the substrate.

You also want to leave 1/16 to 1/8 inch gap between each sheet – do not butt them together, and around the perimeter. If you butt them together you leave no room for expansion. The backerboard will not expand, but your walls will. If everything is butted tight and your wall expands into the room guess what happens. That’s right, your dog may burst into flames and no one wants that! It will also cause your floor to pop loose and possibly ‘tent’ or peak at the seams.

Beneath the backerboards you need thinset. Just about any thinset will work but you need to have it there. skipping this step virtually eliminates the purpose of preparing your substrate for tile – you may as well go grab that three dollar bag and start setting tile now. You need it – really.

Installing thinset beneath backerboards

Installing thinset beneath backerboards

Now that you have them all laid in there properly pick one side of the room to start on and pull a row out. You should only pull out one row at a time to place thinset beneath. That way you can replace them easier and in the proper position. If you pull out the entire room you may get to the last piece and discover everything has shifted 1/2″ and the last piece needs to be cut again. Not really a big deal but you won’t realize it until the backside of it is covered with thinset and you now need to pull it up, wipe the thinset off the wall from pulling it up, cut it, clean the thinset off your saw, snuff out the flames engulfing your dog (again), and replace it. It’s a bit easier just to pull one row at a time.

You need to trowel thinset onto your floor. I cannot overemphasize this (well, I could but you’d get sick of hearing it). This step is imperative for a proper tile installation. The thinset is not meant to ‘stick down’, adhere, or otherwise attach your backerboard to your subfloor. It is simply put in place to eliminate voids beneath your backerboard. Once laid into the thinset bed the floor becomes a solid, fully supported substrate for your tile – that’s what you want.

If you have an air pocket or some certain spot in your floor that is not level or flat with the surrounding area and you simply screw your backerboard onto it this will create a weak spot in your floor. Constantly stepping on that spot will, over time, loosen the screw and your floor will move.

When your floor moves your grout cracks. When your grout cracks your tile may become loose. When your tile becomes loose your tile may crack. When your tile cracks your dog will burst into flames – again. Put thinset beneath your backerboard. And put your dog out.

Installing thinset beneath backerboards

Installing thinset beneath backerboards

Once you have the area fully covered with thinset you can lay your backerboards into the bed of thinset and screw it down. DO NOT use drywall screws! Let me repeat that – THAT! Drywall screws are not made, nor are they sturdy enough for your flooring. You will either bust the heads of the screws off or be unable to countersink them into the backerboard. Hard to get a tile to lay flat over the head of a screw.

There are screws made specifically for cement backerboards. You should be able to find them at any hardware or big box store. They have grooves on the underside of the head which will dig into the backerboard and create its own ‘hole’ in which to countersink the head as it is screwed in. How cool is that?  If you look closely at the photo you can see the ‘grooves’ beneath the head. They are more expensive than drywall screws – just so you know. But you need to use them.

Backerboard screw packEach manufacturer has their own specific spacing instructions for screwing down the backerboards – follow them – really. Some say every 12″ and some want every 6 – 8 inches. The board you use will determine the spacing. (And its right there on the sticker so don’t tell me you couldn’t find it.)

Start your screws in the center of the board and work out. This eliminates undue stresses on the boards. If you screw all the way around the outside and it is not perfectly flat you are going to have to release that pressure somewhere and it

Backerboard screw

Backerboard screw

won’t happen until you have all that pretty tile on top of it. Working from the center out eliminates that. It would probably never, ever be a problem but if you’re anything like me your installation would be the millionth one for that one in a million occurrence.

Backerboard placed into thinset and screwed down

Backerboard placed into thinset and screwed down

Your floor is probably too thick (should be) for the backer screw to actually penetrate into the floor joist. If not, or just to be safe, do not place screws into the area above the floor joists. The plywood or chipboard which makes up your floor will expand and contract at a different rate and, more than likely, in different directions than your joists. If you screw your backer into the ply and into the joist six inches over it will cause inconsistent movement – no good. Do not screw your backerboard into your joists.

After I have all my floor down I will go back and double the screws around every seam. Just put another screw between every screw along the seams. It helps me sleep better at night.

The last thing you need to do is tape your seams. Get an ‘alkali resistant’ mesh tape – similar to drywall tape – and place it over all your seams in your floor. Then mix up some thinset and trowel it over the tape with the flat side of your trowel. Just like taping and mudding drywall. This will make your floor one large monolithic structure and lock it all together. You want alkali resistant tape so it will not break down due to chemicals present in most thinsets. I do not have photos of this because I do it as I set tile.

That’s it! Congratulations, you now have a perfect floor for your perfect tile installation. When installing floor tile – or any tile for that matter – the most important aspect of the installation is always the preparation. Everything beneath your tile is important, if any one aspect is done incorrectly it may compromise the integrity of your installation. Take your time and do it correctly, you will be much happier for it.

Now go put your dog out.

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joseph

Roger,

I am installing a american std tub 60″ by 30″ and will be tiling the floor and surrounds. the tubs mft says to butt the substrate against the apron of the tub. you’re saying leave 1/16″ inch around the hardieboard. please advise. how have you handled this in the past. fyi it is a small guest bathroom 5 ft wide. I had planned to not stagger but install the hardieboard by width. also, should i still cut and stagger in small rm? thanks

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Roger

Hi Joseph,

Yes, you need room for the different materials to expand and contract without stressing against each other. So you should leave the 1/16″ gap. Any backer used for a flooring substrate should be staggered, no matter the size.

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Joe

Roger,

I tried taking your advice and put down some mesh on my Hardiebacker seam. I missed the detail that said you do it as you lay tile. Now it is hard and causing an uneven seam. Should I scrape it out or can the tile thinset can adsorb the unevenness? With a 24″ long tile straddling the seam either end can rock up or down a good 1/8″.

Details: 4′x6′ bathroom floor, 24″x12″ porcelain tile. (not installed yet)
Substrate top down:
–3 coats Redgard
–1/4″ hardie board
–thinset
–1/2″ ply
–solidwood subfloor

Thanks
First-timer.

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Roger

Hey Joe,

Yes, you can make up for that (1/8″ rock means it’s likely less than 1/16″ higher than the backer) with the thinset if you want. You can also just sand down the seams with sandpaper or a brick.

Yes, a brick, it’ll sand thinset. :D

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Kevin

What if the surface you start with is concrete?

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Roger

Than you don’t use cement backerboard. It is only for use over wooden substrates.

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Holly

¡Hola Roger! :O)

We would like to embed WarmWire into mostly likely a SLC bed.
This weekend, we are installing Hardiebacker over Modified Thinset (Laticrete’s 253).
After the Hardiebacker has been screwed into the subfloor, what type of thinset (modified or unmodified) do you recommend for embedding the alkali-resistant mesh tape in the seams between Hardie sheets?

Thank you,
Holly
Kansas City

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Roger

Hi Holly,

Same thinset you used beneath it is just fine.

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Bigchief

Wow! My grouts cracking and coming out! I did the Prep work and I thought I did real good job. I hired someone to tile for me. I strengthened the floor under the house and then put hardy board down with thin set and screws every 6 inches. It seems like I did real good job reading your write up. The floor tiles are 12 inches by 3/8 of an inch thick and it seemed like an easy job but my dogs on fire. The grouts coming out. The guy doing my tile work was slow. I know that he added water to the grout at least once while he was grouting. Also while he was laying the tiles he lost one tile and had to re-cut it while the thin set was probably hardening up. What do you think?
I don’t want my dog to burn to death!!!

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Roger

It sounds like there may be either not enough coverage of thinset beneath the tile or there is a problem with the grout itself (unlikely, but possible). Do any of the tiles around the cracking sound hollow at all? If so it was not installed with proper coverage or the thinset was skimming over when the tile was placed into it.

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Gunda

Good evening,
I need help!!!
I put backerboard over plywood in a thinsetbed in a very small bathroom,
60″ x 60″ backerboard in 2 pieces. After connecting the first piece with the srews ,one side of the backerboard pops up in an aerea 24″ x 24″ 3/8″. It`s not connected with the thinset and plywood.
Maybe one of my mistakes is that I put the backerboard in the thinsetbed one day and srewed the next day.
what can I do???
how can I cut it out?
Thank you for any idea!!!!!!!!

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Roger

Hi Gunda,

Is it popping up because the floor is uneven? I assume so. Part of the reason it that you waited, the other is that even had you not waited there is apparently not enough thinset in one of the areas to allow the backer to lie flat and have it fully supported. Unless it’s not due to an uneven substrate. If you remove the screws you’ve installed and screw down the area that pops up first will it lie flat? Or is this area not connected to begin with (before you install screws)? If that’s the case you need more thinset beneath that area.

Ideally you should remove the backer, put down a fresh layer of thinset. Then screw down the backer while the thinset is still wet. I honestly don’t know how to tell you to ‘cut it out’ if I don’t know why it’s doing that nor how well it’s bonded to the floor with the thinset. I need to know why it’s doing what it’s doing before I can tell you how to fix it.

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Tom

I plan on tiling a small bathroom. It’s 6′ long 4′ wide and 8′ tall. No tub, just a sink and toilet. I plan on tiling the floor and the walls all the way to the ceiling. Should I install the Hardie Backer boards on the floor or the walls first? The same question for the tiles. Do I tile the walls or the floor first?

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Roger

Hey Tom,

Doesn’t really make any difference. I prefer the floors first, both substrate and tile.

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Jim

Roger, excellent website and great humor …or maybe you are serious and that would explain the flaming dogs I passed by the other day.

I am preparing to tile a small 4.5′ x 4.5′ powder room, decided to do some online sleuthing for tips and such, found your website, bookmarked, and have probably read half your posts by this point. Thanks to all your explanations I am pretty well set now regarding proper installation for all the layers that are *below* the actual tiles. I did notice you mention “deflection stability” and “minimum subfloor thickness” and (being a DIY-hypochondriac) am now concerned that my particular project may not be stable enough leading to cracked grout, broken tiles, caved-in-roof, and Scurvy. As funny as it was to read through your long page titled “Flawed”, I’d rather not be inducted into that particular archive.

So what I have is your standard 70′s cookie-cutter pile-o-crap house. The powder room floor joists are 2×8 at 16″ on center. The subfloor appears to be 3/4″ plywood (although I might be wrong and have 1/2″ plywood instead – they were pretty cheap in the 70′s). My plan is to put thinset on top the 3/4″ (or 1/2″) plywood subfloor, 1/2″ cement backer (brand name: Wonderboard), thinset the joints, tape the joints, thinset on top to set the 12″x12″ tiles.

So my questions are:

1) Will the 3/4″ plywood subfloor with the joists 2×8 @ 16o.c. be enough support under the 1/2″ cement backer to keep grout & tiles from cracking due to deflection?

2) Do you thinset inside the joint between backer pieces (under the tape), or do you just leave air in the joint between backer pieces?

3) The entrance to the room is tongue-n-groove hardwood flooring. Can I tile to within 1/4″ of the hardwood T&G floor and use a matching color tile caulk to fill the gap, or is that asking for more flaming animals?

Also, do you have any books for sale? If this small project goes well I will need a good resource when we finally tear out our crappy kitchen and I have a larger tiling job on my hands.

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Roger

Hey Jim,

1. Maybe, maybe not. The unsupported span on the joists need to be taken into consideration as well. this is the distance between the vertical supports of your joists. If they are 10 feet apart that translates into a deflection ratio of L/480, which is the minimum for ceramic or porcelain tile. The shorter the distance of the span the better – more support. Ideally, and by standards, you should also have an additional layer of plywood over that. I would put another layer of 1/2″ over it. If you’re concerned about height you can use 1/4″ backer over it, thickness of the backer makes no difference in your flooring deflection, only that you have thinset beneath it.

2. Yes, fill the gap, put your tape on it and skim coat. Like taping and mudding drywall.

3. Yes, but I usually go to 1/8″ from the hardwood and use silicone.

My Library tab has all kinds of manuals for tile installation having to do with showers (and a basic layout and design manual). These are pdf’s (ebook) and you may feel free to spend your extra beer money on them. :D

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Jim

Yeah, I just measured and the joist span is 10′ between my outside cinderblock wall and the central I-beam). Wow, my house is only 20′ deep…. that sucks.

I had already bought and dry-laid the 1/2″ backer, but it’s just a 4×4 room so I will go pickup some 1/4″ backer and some 1/2″ plywood like you suggest and do this right. The only downside will be the 1/4″ height difference between the tile and the T&G floor, but I’m sure the Big Box stores sell a thin reducer strip. I have kids that leap over entire sofas in a single bound so I am confident they can handle a 1/4″ reducer as they tear into the bathroom to use the toilet.

Thanks for the advice!

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Eric

Question about answer to #2.

I though that the space between the board was needed in case of movement. Doesn’t adding thinset in the crack and taping and thinset(ing) over go against that?

*love the site, although I feel like :bonk: sometimes with my kitchen reno.

thanks

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Roger

The space around the perimeter is for movement. The space between the boards is to be able to tie all the boards together to create a monolithic structure.

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Erik Schultz

Roger,

Thanks for the website and all of your helpful information. I am almost done with my bathroom project and have a question regarding Hardibacker cement board. I have more than several scrap pieces of Hardibacker lying around from previous projects. Can I use those pieces on my bathroom floor as long as I stager the joints, thinset underneath each piece and tape? Would too many separate pieces of Hardibacker create a problem with my floor tile? Flexing, stretching, cracking, movement?

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Roger

Hey Erik,

As long as you’re talking about 2 or 3 foot scraps and not four inch scraps it’ll be fine as long as you tape and mud them with alkali-resistant mesh tape and thinset.

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Erik Schultz
Greg

Roger, yes 1/4″ plywood then, and vinyl tile, Great Idea!!!! Thanks a Million, and Wow!, great site, you answered my question within one day. Greg

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Todd Burger

I am installing radiant heat under new tile in a bathoom with a walk in shower using a trough drain. I need the floor at the shower entry to be 7/8″ higher than at the back of the shower. The radiant heat area will have thinset, cerazorb underlayment and SLC amounting to 9/16″. That means I need to either add another 5/16″ to that area or lower the shower pan base by 5/16″. It would seem adding 1/4″ hardiboard to the floor with 1/16″ thinset would be easier than notching the joists 5/16″ and bracing them (to what degree?) or introducing a double joist in the floor joist and boxing the pan 5/16″ lower (which I can’t do without blocking a heating duct below the floor). Ideas? Best options?

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Roger

Hey Todd,

First of all you’re working all your numbers with exact measurements – you don’t want to do that. That said, the difference between 5/16″ and 1/2″ is 3/16″. When dealing with building up heights of flooring substrates that number is negligible. What I would do is put a 1/2″ layer of plywood or backer beneath your radiant heat.

Easier than that, though, would simply be to add SLC up to the level you need above and beyond what you’re already doing.

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Todd Burger

Not sure where you got the “difference between 5/16″ and 1/2″ is 3/16″. My calculation was 7/8″=14/16 less the 9/16 = 5/16 (not 3/16″). But I guess I don’t understand your point about not wanting to work with exact numbers. What then? Also, adding 1/2″ plywood makes the floor 1/4″ higher (at the threshold to the room necessary. So why not 1/4″ board? Seems easier than mixing another batch or two of SLC.

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Roger

Then do it that way.

I did reword that incorrectly, it was clear in my mind. :D Your total height at the shower entry that you wanted was 7/8″. The difference between that and 1/2″ plywood, and that and the 5/16″ you stated you needed, is 3/16″.

With ANY substrate or tile product you install you should not work height differences with exact numbers. The amount of thinset, inconsistencies in the substrates, inconsistencies in the tile, etc. will nearly ALWAYS throw your exact measurements off. If you work with precise numbers like that and one of those things throws it off by even 1/16″ or 1/8″ you’re screwed somewhere.

Your tile installation and substrate should not depend on a height difference at the adjoining flooring less than 1/2″. Why not 1/4″ board? Because you want to work with exact numbers and that leaves your threshold 1/16″ higher. 1/4″ ply has about 75% less structural stability as does 1/2″. When you are working with tile and stone installation, especially with radiant heat where there will be extreme amounts of expansion and contraction, you want as much structural stability as you’re able to provide.

The difference, by the way, between the 1/4″ higher threshold you’ve pointed out and the 1/16″ difference above – is 3/16″. If you need to provide a threshold to compensate for height differences an additional 3/16″ for 75% more substrate strength is worth it every time. If you want it even use the slc.

Mixing another batch or two of slc takes, at most, an hour with mixing and installation. Given that the average replacement window of a tile installation is around 15 years I think that an extremely small price to pay for a level transition if that’s what you want.

Are you an engineer or an accountant? :D (That, by the way, is not an insult or jab at all, a lot of people take that the wrong way.) I was a physicist, so if you’re an engineer you’ll fully understand that question. :D

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