A common misconception about tile and grout is that they are waterproof. Once you install tile in your shower you have a big waterproof box that will last forever. Ummm, no.
Tile and stone (as well as grout) will actually retain water. How much water it retains is directly related to the density of the tile. For instance, porcelain tile is much more dense than travertine. This means that travertine will retain more moisture and allow more water to seep through to your substrate. If you happen to have travertine in your shower – don’t panic. As long as it was installed properly it will be fine.
So how do they figure this out?
When a specific type or brand of tile or stone is manufactured for production, the company will determine its density. There are four different categories into which each tile may be placed.
This is determined by weighing the particular tile, submerging it in water for a period of time, then weighing it again. The difference in the two weights determines the density or absorption of that product. Basically how much water it holds. It will then be placed into one of the four categories.
- Non-vitreous: These are tiles that absorb 7% or more of its body weight. These are for indoor use only, normally on vertical surfaces such as backsplashes and wainscots.
- Semi-vitreous: These absorb between 3% and 7%. These are also for indoor use only.
- Vitreous: Absorb between 0.5% and 3%. These tiles may be used for interior and exterior applications.
- Impervious: These are the most dense (porcelain) and absorb between 0.001% and 0.5% of their weight in water. They are suitable for all applications.
Depending upon where you intend to install the tile you may need to consider this. In most cases it’s not an issue. Only in the most extreme or unusual circumstance will you need to take into account the category of your particular tile. A tiled patio in Alaska, for instance. If you have a tile that absorbs a considerable amount of moisture and it freezes, well, you’re gettin’ a new patio.
The biggest factor to consider is the amount of water to which the tile will be exposed. (Along with the possibility of freezing, of course.) For anything up to and including a regular shower, it isn’t necessarily an issue. These applications, using proper methods, should be at least water resistant before a box of tile is even opened.
Why is this an issue?
With any tile application, the durability of the tile will be only as good as what is beneath the tile! Let me say type that again – that again.
If you have a wall in your shower with just plain drywall and you stick your tile to it, it may look good for about a year. It may look good for much longer. But, if moisture gets behind the tile (and it will) through the drywall, to the framing studs, well, you’re screwed.
Your framing studs are (most likely) just simple 2 X 4’s. If even a minute amount of moisture from your shower reaches it all hell’s gonna break loose. Common studs will do what we call “wick” moisture. It is aptly named because it acts just like a candle wick (tile guys are simple folk).If you place one end of a candle wick in water the other end will be soaked in short order. Wooden studs do the same thing.
Think of it as a water highway. The water will simply continue along that same path until it finds something else to soak into. That something else is more wood. When wood gets wet it . . . wait for it . . . swells. Normally that swell has only one place it’s going – right against the drywall and into the back of your tile. Tile’s will crack, grout will crack, your patience will crack, and the end of the world will be right around the corner. You get the idea.
This is not (normally) a subject that needs to be considered when installing tile on your floor. A shower (or other wet area) is unique in that it is subjected to a great amount of water on a regular basis. Unless your kitchen is a swimming pool you really don’t need to be that concerned about it.
Just understand that tile and grout are not waterproof so care needs to be taken to eliminate as much moisture from the surfaces as is realistic in any given application. You know – don’t make your kitchen floor a swimming pool.
We live in a 45 year old house and the showers in both of our bathrooms are tiled. We assume the tile work was done when the house was built, since it was here when we moved in 25 years ago, and also when the previous owners lived here 10 years prior to us. My question/problem is….our one shower does not have an access panel behind the shower faucets and we need to replace the faucets. We have never had any problems what-so-ever with leaking, cracked tiles etc. so I am assuming things were done correctly the first time around (minus the “no access” panel”.) Now, however, our spigot is broken, the threads are completely gone from the cold water knob and the shower head is leaking. We have had the spigot repaired several times and the last time a plumber was here, he fixed the spigot, but told us it could no longer be repaired, it needed to be replaced (we were busy at the time and so happy to have the spigot fixed, we didn’t think to ask him how to replace it with no access panel.) How do we replace the faucet without damaging the tile? Or, what is the best way to handle the repair? The shower does not back up to a closet, but rather to the wall of another room, so to put an access panel in we would have to cut a hole in the other room’s wall, which is at a spot where it would stick out like a sore thumb.
Thank you for your help in advance!!!
If you don’t want to damage or replace the tile you need to cut an access panel in the wall behind it. Access panels are not standard behind a faucet, there’s no reason for them. Once replaced just repair and repaint that wall, you won’t need an access panel for at least another 35 years.
I am remodeling my shower and tub putting some glass tile. When I removed the existing tile, It ripped the drywall apart with the tile. I noticed there was no backer board, just the tile, then the drywall and then like a green paper attached to the drywall. I bought my house less than a year ago and it was new construction. The tile was done by the builder. I replaced the pieces that broke with cement backer board and then used thinset rates for wet areas to even the surface. I put the glass tile already and wanted to ask you if I need to use the silicone around the edges of the glasstile, even tho it is in the middle of the wall just a row of glass tile.
You only need silicone in the corners, you can grout it where it meets the old tile.
Hi Roger, I remodelled my bathroom and hired a tile guy. He convinced me to build a ceramic base shower so I did. So this is what he did. This is in the second floor bathroom. Straight on the plywood he laid down the rubber membrane connected it to the water going up about 8-10 inches all around. Then he screwed the top part of the drain pipe with the membrane over it meaning when it was reading to put the cap he just cut a hole for the drain. Anyways he then poured the cement / sand mix on top of the membrane built the base with slope to drain cured for 24 hrs. I installed cement boards all along the inside of the shower and I installed moisture resistance drywall on the exterior of the shower(it’s a shower with tile from top to bottom and on the ceiling from the inside with just a glass door plus 2 shower boxes. He then took a paint roller and rolled the cement boards with the blue waterproofing membrane liquid for showers all along the inside cement boards plus on the shower mud pan. I had to temporarily leave him alone but I know for a fact he did not seal the cement board corners like a plaster drywall guy would do when he plasters corners but he basically just soak the corners and closed them I hope with the Aqua defence blue liquid membrane. My tile is 12×24 porcelain with .6% water retention. The door sits on the sill which was cement boarded and also Aqua defence liquid rolled on it . The walks are grouted to I think 1/8 anyways very thin thin spaces with regular grout can’t remember if it was as sanded or unsanded but it was the right one and the floor tile used was the 2×2 tiles that are glued to that white mesh under it and we used silicone grout. I passed silicone on all 4 corners on sill plate outside sill plate my shampoo boxes . My only concern was if he actually “sealed” the joints of the cement board and I hope he did. Only reason I did not rip everything out and start over is I was 1000$ plus into the job and to be honest I built a shower in 2009 where I used cement boards filled the joints with tape a cement joint filler and totally forgot the red guard and my tile was a cheap tile and also the space between grout was at least 1/2″. And when I ripped off the tile to build new shower after 6 years worth of showers there was zero mild. So this time around everything was done right I was just concerned about the joints not being covered by the red guard liquid membrane. Do you this will leak? I’m I make a mistake to not if started over? When he installed the drain he glued the drain then put the thick blank membrane over it scared the drain cap after pan was built and told me if water goes through the ceramic and through the cement pad it was hit the membrane and go down the drain! Is this wrong install? Also he installed the black plastice membrane directly on my thick plywood support by 2×6 H BEAMS ? Is this ok?
So I’m I loosing it thinking my shower base will fall right living room?
I can’t tell you if it will leak or not. I can tell you there were several things done incorrectly. I have no idea what you’re describing with the drain, so it’s doubtful it’s correct. There is no preslope, there is a pvc membrane as well as a topical membrane. And what the hell is ‘silicone grout’? People use that term all the time and it doesn’t mean a damn thing – there is no such product. So I don’t know if it will lead, but I can tell you there were several things done incorrectly.
I am doing and outside water feature. Nothing big, but am using garden border rocks for the exterior and want to use left over ceramic tile for the “box” to hold the water. Will that work? I will silicone all corners/joints.
It will if you have a waterproof substrate behind it. Tile is not waterproof, even with silicone in the corners.
Thanks so much for your posts and advice. I am dealing with a really tough contractor situation and hope you can help. Long story short, we are having our master bath done and are using flat pebble stone for the floor…like seen here: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/61643088623267342/.
After initial installation, the floor wasn’t draining right. It has now been “redone” two other times and is better, but is still not draining completely. Light 1/8″ pooling in certain areas that take up to 3 hours in certain spots to dry.
On top of this, our new glass shower doors have been installed and water is now leaking everywhere. Waiting to hear from the door guy, but have been told due to the sill not having positive pitch draining into the shower (not the door guys fault).
Questions: Is the draining issue in the floor a huge problem? It makes sense rock might hold water in certain spots so don’t know if I am over reacting.
Does it make sense to “fix” the sill pitch issue by taking off the marble cap and trimming the ledge underneath to produce a slope?
So worried we are going to end up with future issues with this shower. Thanks for any help you can provide.
Normally with pebbles you want a stronger pitch, like 3/8″/foot rather than 1/4″. But, provided your shower floor is properly waterproofed it’s not structurally or functionally damaging.
The pitch on the curb is required. It would be better to remove the sill and build up a slope to the outside of it rather than attempting to ‘shave down’ the inside, which may damage the waterproofing.
I need help. I have an upstairs outdoor patio with a tile floor. There was a leak there that had nothing to do with the tile. I got it fixed and in the process had to retile the floor. (I made sure I bought the correct tile of outdoors). The contractor did a great job fixing the roof leak but disappeared leaving me with a half-done tile job (grout is cracking and it never got sealed) Plus I now have a new leak. Where the patio meets the door, water is getting in and I have a nice long thin water line stain on my living room ceiling downstairs. The contractor grouted the 1-inch open space between the patio floor and door frame… that is where the water is getting in.
I bought more grout to fix the cracking. And then I will seal it. I also bought the caulking that looks like grout to (hopefully) keep water from leaking. Is there anything else i can do to fix the area and keep the rain from doing future water damage?
The problem isn’t your grout or lack of caulking, it’s lack of flashing from the structure to the patio. There needs to be flashing attached vertically to the structure (the house) and down horizontally over the edge of the patio that is against the house. This directs water that runs down the wall onto the horizontal plane of the patio and out away from the house. The tile there will need to be removed, the flashing tied into the barrier of the house (behind the siding, or whatever finish is there) and over the patio substrate. Then reinstall the tile and silicone that change of plane. Not for water or leaking purposes, to allow movement without cracking anything.
Do I need to do any type of water proofing just outside the shower door opening or wont there be enough water to worry about it?
You can if you want, but it’s really not necessary.
i just discovered that when my bathroom was redone about 7 years ago the floor tile was installed right over the plywood, my grout and some of the floor tiles are now cracking. I have a feeling that my shower tile was installed right over the drywall (i wasn’t home to watch the installation i was at work). This was done by a “professional” installer through the store i bought my tile at. Is there a way i can tell if the shower tile is over drywall or if the tile guy used cement board? If it is just over the drywall what should i do?
Take off the escutcheon (cover) over the shower handles and look down in there. If it is over drywall it will need to be replaced at some point with a properly waterproofed substrate.
i did as you suggested and I can see the tile was installed directly on top of the drywall not cement board which means no water proofing either. Can I go back to the tile store and try to have them fix it since they hired the installer? Or what can i do?
That’s where I would start. I would ask them specifically how they waterproofed the shower walls (they didn’t) and go from there.
To repair plumbing in the shower, I had to remove tile and cement board at base of wall. I cleaned out the space between the shower rubber pan and the sub-base of the shower floor tile. After using fans and shopvac, there is still some moisture that seeps into the tight space. Is that a problem? If so, how do I fix this? My next step is to replace the cement board and then the tile on the wall. Thanks!! Clark
It’s not a problem, it’s completely normal in a traditionally built (and properly built) shower pan.
Thanks – you are very helpful!!
Hey Roger – big shout out for all the know-how i have gained by reading your stuff and the great entertainment along the way!
So – am re-doing my shower with Wonderboard, Redgard and tile and have concern about tile type. Looking to tile in ‘subway’ tile which seems to be mostly only available in non-vitreous ceramic tile – so high water absorption and not frost-proof. We shut down the house for winter and allow it to freeze – but the time between closing the house and the actual freezing temperatures would be several weeks. Is that enough time for the moisture to dry out of the tiles to prevent frost damage? Or should I truly restrict myself to vitreous/impervious tiles?
That will be plenty of time. That tile will be just fine.
Hi- I just installed a 1×1 tumbled marble mosaic tile floor in a bathroom. The floor always looks wet, even days after a shower. This isn’t an issue in the shower, where it has a rubber liner under it. The rest of the floor also looks wet but now we are getting moisture issues at the wood floor outside the room. We also have a bit of mold at a joint where wall meets floor (both tiled).
Our belief is that the water is seeping through the floor (it has been well sealed), and running under the floor. If we get the water to dry, what can we put on the tile and grout to prevent this issue from continuing or getting worse??
Thanks for the help,
I’m assuming the substrate is concrete? If you have a moisture issue in the concrete (negative hydrostatic pressure) then there is nothing you can put over the tile to prevent this. It needs to be addressed at the substrate level before tile is installed. Using a product like ditra, which has channels on the underside to dissipate moisture, would be a perfect solution for this – that is exactly why those channels exist in that product.
Similarly to some of the above questions: Do I need to remove my tiles?
I ripped out a vinyl tub/shower to the studs, installed a steel/porcelain tub, cement backer boards, mortared and tiled. In the process, I got ahead of myself and didn’t apply the waterproofing to the walls before tiling. Do I need to remove and start over with the waterproofing first or are the walls sufficient as they are now?
Your shower is not waterproof. It really needs to be waterproof. It will last for a while, but I can’t say how long. Once water gets to your framing it will begin to grow mold and destroy stuff in the wall – long before you see ANY sign of a problem.
Hi, I’m really hoping you can answer this question since every time I ask someone, I get a different answer! I want to use a 16 x 32 tile on all three sides of my shower/tub surround, and continue it to the end of the 3rd wall. It is a white body wall tile that has a 3 dimension effect to it. The tile is half inch and 8.5mm. The catalogue says the water absorption rate is 10%-20%. The company says that it can go in a wet shower environment no problem. It just can’t be submerged in a pool setting. From my online research, I thought that the water absorption rate should be less than 3% for showers. Do you have any ideas on this? Thanks so much for any advice!
Unless you are installing it in a steam shower (which would infuse vapor into the tile) a tile with a high absorption rate is not a problem. If your shower is properly waterproofed you can place nearly any type of tile into it. Regular clay-body ceramic tiles used to be close to 25%. We would actually soak them in water before installing them. Your tile is fine.
Wow…you made my day! Thanks for the info—I feel better about using this tile now
Actually Roger, can I ask one more?
This tile has a 3D effect to it…it has a raised wave pattern in it.
It’s going on all the walls of my shower.
Some people say it can’t be used on the shower fixture wall because the silver plates of the fixtures won’t lay flat on it.
Other people say that the tile itself is waterproof and the plates are just for show, so it’s fine if they don’t lay flat.
Others say that I should silicone around the plates (using more where the tile is lower in the wave) to make sure it is waterproofed.
Others say I should cut out the tile and recess my plate into the tile.
Others say I should cut out a flat tile in a square and put all my fixtures on the flat tile, and then cut out the wave tile around the flat tile and fixture square.
Any ideas one if this is doable…hanging fixtures on a wave tile while still maintaining waterproof conditions?
It’s the ribbon tile on this page:
The tile is not waterproof, and the escutcheon doesn’t need to be. The water-tightness of your substrate behind your tile is what you need to be concerned with. Waterproof it like this: Waterproof shower cutouts
Hi, We just DIY installed our mud shower pan over a professionally hot mopped shower pan. We thought it would be a good idea to test the slope of the pan by pouring water over it to watch if it pooled anywhere. Much to our surprise, all the water was quickly absorbed by the concrete pan. Is this normal? The mud/concrete ingredients that we read up on and used included quite a bit of sand. We used pea gravel around the weep holes and it seems like we followed all the rules. Thanks, Karen
You did follow the rules – it’s supposed to do that.
we renovated our new 100 year old farm house with the help of a contractor. He got a tile guy to come in and put the tiles down in our bathroom floor and the walls in the bathtub. We noticed after he was done that he used one floor tile on the wall in the shower, the rest of them have a gloss on them. We have tried to get a hold of him to ask him about it but haven’t heard back yet. Will the one floor tile make a difference? Can we still shower and leave it as is? Or should we call him back and ask him to fix it.
It’s not going to hurt anything, but I would definitely have him replace it, simply because it’s not right. It will not compromise your shower at all.
We have bought an old house built in early 1900’s the bathroom looks like it was remodeled in pieces from the 70’s and possibly recently but I want to redo the shower surround in tile they just used a plastic surround do I need to rip it out to the studs and just install the hardibacker board to place my tiles?
Yes, the plastic surround needs to be removed and backer put up.
I think I’ve made a blunder. I ripped out the tile in the walk-in shower, which is built on a slab. I then put up felt paper on the studs, followed by hardibacker, then mortar and tile. I did not apply Red Guard or any other waterproofing sealer to the hardibacker (I didn’t come across recommendations for it in the DIY tile books I bought from the big box store). I put up porcelain tile and am using Quartzlock 2 for grout. I haven’t yet done the bottom row of tiles or the tiles for the floor of the shower (slab). I was going to waterproof this with Red Guard (or something like it) and then go up the walls a few inches. Will this not matter and am I likely screwed anyway?
Thanks for any advice you can offer,
You need to use some type of liner in the floor which can be run up the walls and lapped BEHIND the felt paper. You can not use felt paper with a topical membrane on the floor. Water running down the wall will always end up behind your waterproofing on the floor, it defeats the purpose. You need to build a traditionally waterproofed floor with a rubber membrane.
I am redoing a shower. The floor is concrete then there is a thick plastic shower pan followed by sloped cement/concrete. Can I break off the floor tile, scrape and smooth then apply red guard, thinset and tile. I’ll be tearing the wall down, which have greenboard, and installing hardibacker, which book do you recommend to get the most waterproofing
You can, but you’ll have trouble tying into the drain. It would be best to remove the deck as well and start from scratch. If you’re using redgard then this is the one you want: Elastomeric membranes for shower waterproofing.
After many years, we are draining swim pool and simply overlaying grout in between the tile spaces (but not replacing the tiles) to improve color/look.
Is it alright to use ordinary grout or should we use special sealant grout?
Regular grout is just fine to my knowledge – but I’m not a pool guy. I would check with the manufacturers to ensure the chemicals won’t negatively affect the grout.
I’m thinking of installing VCT (Vinyl composit tile) in a 2nd story laundryroom. I’m most concerned about water and mold resistance. I like the VCT mostly becuase of the retro look and colors. Do you think this is a bad idea – what can go wrong? If we do this – how can we maximize the possiblity of it lasting a very long time and resisting some water here and there from regular laundry room type things. Thanks!
Properly installed vct is not affected at all by regular water exposure.
Please help with my condition of “cold feet” that extra socks won’t take care of.
We’re remoding the bathroom in our newly purchased, less than 2 year old manufactured home. Our intent is to provide an accessible bathroom for my wife, including a barrier-free shower. We’ve purchased a 60″ linear drain to be the “barrier” between the shower and the rest of the bathroom, and sufficient 12″ x 24″ porcelain tile to cover the complete floor and the shower walls up to the ceiling. The tiling pro is planning to start next week to install a cement mud-pan and float the shower walls in mud as the backing for the tiles. I’ve installed “purple” (moisture resistant) drywall on the shower wall studs in prep of the cement wall going in.
The floor joists are 2×6’s on 16″ centers; the bathroom sub floor up to the shower is one layer of 5/8″ OSB glued and stapled to the joists; the floor under the shower has been stripped of the OSB and replaced with 2″x10″ dry Doug Fir blocks on edge between the joists to provide a solid floor and reduce the height of the drain.
In preping to apply HydroBan on the sub floor in the bathroom section, I’ve read some stuff that now gives me “cold feet” about the entire job. First, I’ve read that HydroBan can’t be applied on OSB, but I’ve also recently read that the floor joists on such a job should be a minimum of 2″x10″ (the span is roughly 12 feet). I’m concerned that the floor is not structurally sound enough to support the mud and tile weight, and would appreciate your thoughts, even though you’re a “tile guy” and not a structural engineer. My backup plan is to coat the entire wall’s and floors with an elastomeric acrylic such as Metacrylic and coat that surface with an epoxy compound made to improve wear-life on the surface.
All real tile guys have to become engineers to a point. The single layer 5/8 over your 2×6 joists is not sufficient, you need an additional layer of plywood over that to a minimum 1 1/8″ overall thickness. If you do that your bathroom floor will be sturdy enough, but you still need a proper tile substrate, like cement backerboard, ditra, greenskin, etc. The bare osb or wood, even with hydroban over it, is not a sufficient bonding surface for your floor tile.
Update: we ripped up the OSB and replaced it wimth two sheets of 19/32 exterior glue plywood, subfloor perpendicular to joists and underlayment perpendicular to subfloor. Upon checking in the crawspace under the floor, turns out there’s another steel beam 4′ from the centerline, so the span of the 2X6 joists is only 8′, which produces a deflection suitable for ceramic (porcelain) tile.
The tile pro floated the pan with cement and installed a PASCO membrane on the entire floor, shower and bath room. The shower’s been leak tested, and he’ll mud the bathroom floor to slope to the drain before he lays the tile. Looks like everything’s ok, unless you have other suggestions.
Sounds fine to me.
In a pickle…
Already had tile put on my shower walls….it is Ivetta Porcelain Tile Item # 0399383 with a rating of 5 PEI and impervious. The installer said we did not have to use a waterproofing material on the walls. He said we could but did not have too, he kept saying it would be fine and he does it all the time. So he just put the tile on the drywall. Another guy we talked to said he puts cement board on every single time, Red Guard (I think) and then the Tile. Should we have the tile ripped out and redone? We are into it for $1000 on the shower already.
Unfortunately yes, it should be replaced. The first guy didn’t know what the hell he was talking about (obviously).
I have ceramic tile that is 18×18 I had planned om using for the floor and walls in my shower. The box says 3-6%.
I have the floor mud bed complete and used Oatey shower pan. I took great care when I did the mud bed to make sure this tile would slope to the drain and still lay flat wth no voids since it is so large. For the walls I have used hardibaker directly to the studs and plan on using redgard.
1) will I see problems with this 3-6% tile on the floor or walls as long as I get adequate thinset coverage?
2) should the redgard be sealed down the wall and on to the floor a few inches or just stop at the bottom of the hardibaker? I’m leaving about a 1″ gap between the hardi and the mud bed.
3) should the floor tile go as far under the hardi on the walls so the the wall tile comes down on top of the floor tile? I would leave a 1/4″ gap and then silicone floor to wall gap
1. No, coverage has nothing to do with the absorption rate of your tile. Provided your shower is properly waterproofed that rate makes no difference in a regular shower.
2. If you have the gap stop at the bottom of the backer.
3. It can go flush with the face of the backer so the wall tile sits on top of it. You don’t need 1/4″ – 1/16″ to 1/8″ is plenty.
I really need your help. I noticed a crack on the grout of my shower floor tiles. I removed it and i also noticed that when i press on the tile, i could see water coming out from beneath the tiles. Is it ok that water can get under the shower floor tiles? What if there is a waterproofing membrane under the substrate? I am very worried that it might get into the wooden frames of the house if not properly addressed. Would it be ok just to regrout it? I really need an advise. Thanks in advance.
If water is coming out when you step on it then your shower floor is not draining, the weep holes are plugged or something. If there is ANY movement in the tile something is incorrectly built.
Also, no need to ask twice, I get all the questions. That whole day job thing sometimes delays the answers, though.
We just shifted to new Apartment. we live on 2nd floor.Our son are continually splashing water out of the tub.Does it will cause any problem to downstair bathroom?like any leaking problem
Not unless he’s dumping full buckets of water out of the tub. If it’s just splashing 99% of that will evaporate before it reaches your substrate beneath your tile floor.