Now that you have your curb built and your pre-slope done (if you haven’t done this yet check out How to create a shower floor, Part 1) you are ready to install your waterproof liner.
Purchasing a waterproof liner
When you order or buy your liner you need to get one large enough for your shower. The liner you get has to be at least one additional foot larger than each of your measurements. For instance, if your shower floor is three feet by five feet your liner needs to be four feet by six feet. This allows enough to run the liner up the wall behind your backerboard six inches each way. You also want to purchase two “outside” corners for your curb. These are pre-formed corner pieces to waterproof the ends of your curb after you cut the liner.
I usually order mine two feet larger in each direction. Six inches is the minimum. Specifications state that your liner must run up the wall at least three inches above your curb. So if your curb is three inches high your liner needs to run at least six inches up each wall. I usually go a foot above the curb – overbuilding your shower is rarely a bad thing.
Preparing your shower floor for a waterproof liner
It's supposed to be sandy!
Before you install your liner I need to say type this: your preslope will be sandy, it’s suppose to be sandy – it’s normal, don’t panic. If you have any high areas in your preslope you may want to scrape or sand it down so it runs in a flat, straight line from the wall to the drain. Notice I said typed “flat, straight” and not level – if it’s level water won’t drain.
You can scrape it down with a regular razor scraper or sandpaper – yes, sandpaper. If there is a significantly large dip in your pre-slope you can fill it with more deck mud. You’ll need to coat the pre-slope with thinset under the patch to ensure it will stay put. Don’t get all OCD about this, it doesn’t have to be perfect. Just make sure there are no major humps or dips and water will run from the wall to the drain without problems.
The next thing to do is take a chisel to your wall studs. You weren’t expecting that, were you? You want to notch out your studs about 1/8″ up to the height of the top of your liner. This is so you can place your backerboard over the front of your liner on the wall without them jutting out at the bottom. It allows your walls to remain flat all the way down to the shower floor. You will create “cavities” in your wall studs for the liner. 1/8″ is a bit larger than the thickness of your liner but it’s better to be larger than smaller.
When you place your liner in the shower you will be folding the corners so you want to allow enough room on one of the corner studs for three layers of the liner. I usually notch my corner studs out 1/4″. This allows enough to keep your corner square after the walls are up.
Placing the liner in your shower
Liner placed over pre-slope
Now it’s time to lay your liner in the shower and get it all lined up. DO NOT cut anything until you have the liner exactly where you want it. Make sure you have the top half of the drain flange removed before you place your liner over it. I’m not talking typing about the round part that unscrews, I mean the top half of the lower part which bolts onto the lower half. After removing the top half of the flange replace the bolts, this will serve as a guide when you cut the liner.
Center your liner in the shower with the ends running up the walls evenly. Also make certain you have enough of the liner draped over your curb so that you can attach it on the outside of the curb. I will usually place it so that the liner drapes up and over the curb all the way to the floor on the outside of the shower.
Cutting the hole for the drain out of your shower liner
Drain hole cut out of liner
After you have it properly positioned you can cut out the hole for your drain. Do this very carefully – there is no second chance. Take your utility knife and poke a hole through the liner directly in the center of the drain. From there cut in a circular motion toward the outside of the drain in a spiral. Only cut it out to the outside of the four bolts which attach the top half of the flange to the bottom.
Silicone under the liner around the drain
Remove the bolts from the flange. Now you need to place a bead of silicone under the liner around the perimeter of the lower flange. The easiest way to do this is to place the nozzle of the tube of silicone into the hole you just cut for the drain. Place a good size bead around the lower flange outside of the bolt holes, don’t get any in the bolt holes. This prevents any minute amount of moisture from getting under you waterproof liner. Press the liner into the bead of silicone all the way around the drain to ensure full contact.
Prepared liner ready for top slope
Now you can bolt the upper half of the flange to the lower. Do not overtighten the bolts. You want to squeeze the liner between the two but not so much as to crack the flange – they are only plastic, after all. That’s it, the drain is finished.
Now take your liner and place it up the walls into the notches you cut out of the studs. You can nail or tape the top of them to hold them in place. Only place one nail into the very top of the liner, never lower. In the corner you will fold the liner over on itself, never cut it. Place the folded part into the larger notches. There should be enough room in the notches so your backerboard will set flush onto the studs.
In my next post I will cover how to cut the liner for your curb and make sure it’s waterproofed properly.
Damn! Sandpaper? Who’d have thunk it???
Roger,
If I am using a Noble ready to tile curb, what should I do about extending the liner over it? If i stop it at the base of the curb I’m worried about water getting under it. But don’t know if the thinset will bond to the liner if I go over the curb.
Thanks!
Hey Mike,
If you have the solid curb you can’t use it with the traditional waterproofing method on the floor – it’s made for topical waterproofing. If you have the overlay curb (shaped like a ‘U’) then you build your curb out of 2×4’s, run the liner up and over it, then the curb overlay slips over the liner down onto the curb. Thinset will not bond to the liner.
My second go around at putting together a curb and base in my basement shower. SOOO Glad I found this site before I put in the deck mud. I was reading about “how to” on another site and they used wood for the curb. Well after I removed my “wood curb” I built one just like you suggested and then got in a hurry to get the deck mud in and forgot to put down the layer of “thin set”. My question is do I need to tear out the deck mud and do it over or can I just press on?
My gut feeling is to tear out the deck mud I have put in and do it right but I don’t know how important the stick/thinset is for the deck? I defer to you!
Thanks for your time!
Hey Doug,
As long as your deck is packed tight it’ll be fine. You simply have an unbonded mud deck rather than a bonded one. It’s not a big deal. Grab a beer – you’re fine.
Hi Roger,
We are fixing to redo our master bath and I had a couple of questions for you. We have a tub in place now and we are wanting to take the tub out and make one big walk-in shower. We have a concrete floor and our drain is at the end of the tub where the fixtures are. First of all our floor is level and we were wondering what is the best way to make the slope? We are planning on using ceramic tiles for the walls and flooring. I was reading on your website to use bricks for the curb, so what do you recommend for the seat in the shower? Any advice you can give would be great.
Thanks,
Kim
Hi Kim,
You need to make the slope with deck mud. You can use bricks or cinder blocks for the bench as well. Just stack and mud them together like you’re making a brick wall. If you’ve never made a brick wall – act like you’ve made a brick wall before, then do it just like that.
Hi
We are currently redoing our whasroom and we are planning on installing a heated floor system (wire type not the mat type). Can this also be installed in the shower and if so at which step. We have a ciment floor.
Hi Steph,
If the wire is approved for wet areas then yes, it can be used inside the shower. It does need to be rated for that, though. I know suntouch wire is, I’m not sure what else if, but there are a bunch of them. Just check and make sure.
Hello again Roger,
I have my pre-slope done and I am ready to put my PVC liner in place- does it need to be “glued” or affixed to the top of the pre-slope itself, or just siliconed at the drain and stapled at the walls?
Thanks (again)!
Pat
Hey Pat,
It just lays there. The silicone around the drain and stapled or taped at the very top of the liner (more than three inches above the top of the curb) are the only spots it is attached to anything.
Thanks again, Roger!
Roger,
Thanks for your informative website.
I am interested in remodeling an old bathroom in my house. The room is about 6′ x 7′ and currently really cluttered by the shower, vanity, shelving. I want to strip it down to its bare bones and create a curbless shower with a curved shower curtain in the back corner so that the room will look completely open when the shower curtain is open.
Couple of questions:
1. Do I need to pre-slope, put a membrane down at least 2 feet past the shower curtain boundaries, and then pour a concrete shower pan for the entire room? I have quite a bit of remodeling experience but this idea kinda has me stumped.
2. If thats the case…should I put a layer of 3/4″ plywood, then Durock sheets, preslope, membrane, shower pan, then tile? Is that the correct order?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Jeff
Hey Jeff,
There are a couple of different ways to create what you are describing, the way you’ve described is one of them, no need for the durock, the ply will be enough. You can also create a ‘speed bump’ in the floor around the shower perimeter to contain the water, the membrane would run up and over this hump. An easier, and more effective, waterproofing method would be with a topical membrane such as redgard or kerdi. This eliminates the need for a double mud deck and makes it easier to waterproof. You can do either the speed bump method or the entire floor with a topical membrane.
Roger,
Thanks for your reply. I have also considered lowering the shower area so that I can slope that area up to the level of the rest of the floor. Seems like it would save me a lot of unnecessary work sloping the entire bathroom floor.
On a super tight material budget so I think I’d rather put in the extra work of a double mud deck rather than spend the money on Redgard or Kerdi, they seem kinda pricey if I was looking at the correct stuff.
If I was to do a double mud deck. I would put down a mud pre-slope (like described in your blog), then the waterproof membrane and then what would I use for the top layer? Standard concrete? How thick should these layers be?
Thanks again,
Jeff
Lowering the area under the shower is also an option, although a much more detailed one – you’re messing with structural framing and it must be done correctly. Your top slope is made from the same 5:1 sand / cement ratio you use for the preslope. The total thickness for both layers must total at least 1 1/4″ at the drain, I normally make each 3/4″.
Hello Roger,
I know you’ve heard this a gazillion times before, but I just have to say it again – THANK YOU for your generosity with both your time and what most would consider ‘proprietary information’!
For a couple of months now I have been ‘silently’ reading all the stuff on your site as well as the posts from other folks along with your extremely prompt replies and decided it was time I came to the Guru with queries of my own…
My husband, teenage son and I live in ‘The house that Jack Built.’ Neither the previous owner nor we have done squat (Jack) to the place, especially the bathrooms and we’ve been here about 13 years!!! Now how’s that for Jack-asses???
We probably won’t do anything again for the next 20 years and so I want to make this remodel not only one that will last, but one that we can live and grow old with.
I have been researching curbless showers – not because we are getting on in years (even though we are and initially all I found was info on ADA stalls), but because I want the room to be as seamless and clean-lined as possible. It is a small bathroom, so I want it to look larger. But more than that, I want it to be super easy to clean, with no (if possible) obstructions on the floor.
We talked to a couple of contractors while I was doing my ‘research’ and I discovered two very staunch camps, much like our beloved Democrats versus Republicans: The ones who swear by hot-mopping and those who worship the membrane! Till I came upon your site I was more confused than when I started out… but as you can see, I am now a membrane devotee.
My ‘main’ question (finally) is how do we/the contractors create the necessary slope from the door the the drain? We live in earthquake country so our home has a crawl space. Some contractors mentioned having to actually cut and lower the joists in order to create the slope and others said that you should not mess with the sub-floor (two camps again). A few mentioned needing a permit to cut the joists, but getting a permit is not an issue as far as I am concerned, if cutting the joists is the right thing to do. What is your take on the matter?
Being a bit of an artful/crafty creature, I want to do the walls myself. I will, however, leave the waterproofing part to the contractors – but armed with know-how from your site, will be watching them with a hawk-eye! I might even ask them to list the order in which they will be doing each step with what goes in front of what and make suggestions (again from your site) regarding the protocol. Better to do this ahead of time rather than after the fact…
I recently got the idea of combining glazed porcelain and natural stone veneer with waterproof paint to create a seascape mural on the walls. Do you have any recommendations for paint that can be used in a bathroom? Also, could I stick the tile/stone veneer over the paint or should it go directly on whatever the exposed surface is? I know (thanks to you) not to use mastic, but to use thinset instead, in a wet area. The floor will have river rock kind of meandering down the center. I’m still wondering what appropriate material the rest should be – I want it to look like sand, but be durable, slip-proof and not attract mold to easily. Am I asking too much of a material?? I don’t mind the cost (we won’t be doing this again in a hurry)…
And my last question (for now) – I realize that I may be stretching your field of expertise a bit here, but I have come to respect and really value your opinion, so I’m going to ask you anyway… Do you have a point of view regarding wall-hung toilets? I have my heart set on installing one at least in our bathroom (nothing touching the floor), but my ‘young’ man feels we may be buying ourselves a whole lot of trouble – and paying big bucks to do so!
Thanks for letting me pick your brains!
Jen (I was told that Jennyass is the female version of Jackass…)
Hi Jen,
Ideally the floor joists would be modified and the entire shower floor area dropped enough so that the finished height, with the tile, is lower than the rest of the bathroom floor (1/4″ / foot from the entrance of the shower to the drain, to be precise). That said, I always determine the viability of that after examining the structure. It will require a permit (in most places) but you’re right – that’s a non-issue.
There are several epoxy-based paints which may be suitable for a wet area (where water is not directly and constantly spraying directly at it) but I honestly don’t know about the long-term durability of it. You may be better off creating the seascape mural with mosaic tiles – that would be cool! If you want to do that I could give you a crash course on how it’s done. Either way the tile should be directly adhered to the shower substrate.
I have installed three wall-hung toilets and have (literally) jumped up and down on them after installation to check the durability – all scientific-like, of course. They are very durable provided they are correctly installed. And they look cool.
As far as the stone that looks like sand – try sandstone. I know, weird right?
Roger,
I just finished up water testing the pvc shower pan liner. It passed, however shortly after I dropped a staple gun on it and it made a small impression on the liner. I can’t tell if it went all the way through or not. Is there something I can put over the spot just in case it did go through? Silicone? a patch of pvc liner with solvent?
I’ve learned my lesson, next time i’ll put some cardboard or something down to protect from things like this.
Thanks
Hey Justin,
The best thing to do would be to glue a patch over it. As long as you meant ‘glue’ rather than ‘solvent’ – that’s the way to go.
Wonderful site – great advice, thank you – however I have more questions.
I am installing a shower – first time – and going to install the shower floor deck mud myself. I am going to use Laticrete Hydroban as the waterproofing membrane for finished floor and walls. I am a bit confused about a couple of things.
I understand how to make the mud bed using dry pack mortar – great instructions by the way on the mix – I plan to use 15# roofing felt with a layer of metal lath over it on top of my wood sub floor, then install the dry pack mud bed, sloped toward the drain, (where the base of the two part drain is going to be at the same height as the finished mud bed – I beleive that is correct?), but since I am using the Laticrete – as you noted to another person on Redguard, there is no need to use the PVC liner but simply put on the next layer of mud.
So – how thick is that mortar layer?
What ratio of sand to cement is it?
How long do I wait before I can add the second and final mortar layer?
Do I need to do something special for the curb, which will be 3 – 2×4’s stacked atop one another with metal lath over that – when I go to use the Laticrete, e.g. should I put in the initial deck mud layer up to the edge of the threshold and then when the top layer of mortar is installed, add a layer of mortar mix to the threshold and form it up to make the curb?
What is the recipe for the curb mortar? 3:1? A lot wetter?
Do I then wait the same amount of time before rolling on the Laticrete?
Sorry for so many questions – but thanks in advance for your answers.
Hi John,
Your understanding of a topical method (hydroban) is a bit mixed. With topical membranes you only build a single layer mud deck at 1 1/4″ thick at the drain and up 1/4″ / foot from there. The hydroban goes directly onto this layer, and the tile directly onto that. When using a normal 3 piece drain you’ll need to utilize the ‘divot’ method for your drain, or you can use a topical drain such as Schluter’s kerdi drain. You can read about the divot method here: http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=72403&page=3&highlight=divot
All regular deck mud is mixed at a 4:1 to 6:1 ratio of sand to cement. The curb and any vertical planes need wet mud which is the same recipe plus 1/2 part powdered masonry lime. After all your deck mud and curb are in you just paint on the hydroban and install your tile.
Thanks for the clarification. I have purchased a Kerdi drain – although expensive, it seems to be easier.
John
Hi, I am planning on waterproofing my entire shower with redgard including the shower pan. My question is regarding the shower pan. Since there will not be a liner, do I still need to pack it in in two steps? Or can I just pack in one big slab as long as the final slope is correct?
One other question, when I put up the CBU on the walls, I understand I need to leave a small gap at the bottom of the CBU where it meets the pan, about a 1/2″ or so. How do I seal this gap? Can I just fill that gap with redgard?
Thank you in advance,
D–
Hey Derek,
That’s correct, just the one large slope as your final. No need for two slopes. When using redgard for your pan you will need to reinforce the changes of plane as well as around the drain. This is done with mesh fabric you should be able to find wherever you bought the redgard.
When using a topical membrane like redgard you do not need to leave that gap. If you do you can fill it with silicone and paint the redgard right over it. It won’t stick very well but the silicone waterproofs that area rather than the redgard. And if you do leave a gap it does not need to be 1/2″ – that’s huge. 1/8″ will work just fine.
Hi Roger,
Man I think I fucked up!! I didn’t take the drain into consideration when I did the shower pan. I used one of those two piece drains with a clamping ring (so maybe that’s a three piece??) from kohler. I glued the drain as close to the floor as I could get it. Then I just packed in deck mud all around the drain and finished the shower pan. I am building this shower on a concrete slab that has terrazzo on top. I coated the entire floor with thinset, packed in my deck mud for the pan, then skim coated the top with another layer of thinset. After seeing some of you other posts I realize I should have used a kerdi drain or used a divot method. I didn’t do either : (. Am I fucked now? Or are there any workarounds for this little boo boo?
Oops, I hit a button on the keyboard and posted before I could finish. I was thinking to just put the topical membrane over the whole pan once it’s finished but now I realize there is some art to getting the drain just right. Do I need to re-do the whole thing?
Thank again,
D–
Hey Derek,
You can actually carve a divot out of your mud deck. You can use pretty much anything abrasive to sand away the divot down to the weep holes then coat it with thinset, let that cure, then do your waterproofing.
Awesome! Thanks a lot!!
I am remodeling a tile shower deck on concrete. We cut out the concrete & put in a u trap with the drain having a 4 in. square hole in the concrete floor. I have an Oatey liner that I am considering putting directly on the concrete floor for extra waterproofing into the concrete square full of gravel ( like a frech drain). Then install the angle for drainage with deck mud. Install Kedri on that and go into the drain clamp. Would that work? If the kerdi did fail it would be contained in the Oatey liner & drain into the gravel. What’s your take on this idea?
Hi Jamie,
Do not use the oatey liner. What that will do is create two waterproof barriers with your deck mud between them – a perfect breeding ground for mold. Properly installed your kerdi will never leak. In the case of shower floors overbuilding often leads to more problems than it helps with scenarios which ‘may’ happen.
Thanks for the insight, I decided to go all the way with the expensive Kerdi drain also. I figured it would cost a lot more if I had to tear it out cause it didn’t work. I am laying the incline mud
deck tomorrow. Wish me luck. I’ve made cheaters out of concrete board so I can follow a straight slant down to the drain. First time virgin for this one!
Hope it came out well Jamie.
It actually looks pretty good. I’m letting it dry a few days while I take a break for my grandson’s first birthday. Thank you so much for answering my dumb questions.
Roger,
WOW Wish I had found this site earlier. I LOVE tile. My favorite medium to work with. We are now doing a handicap assessible shower. I am at a loss as to how to create the curb. I am thinking a slight slope up to the apex (don’t have to worry about the water getting out it is at the 6 foot end), what I can’t figure out is how I will then tile the edges of that curb. Obviously the floor will not be flat at the edges of the curb.
Thanks in advance.
Hey Sylvia,
Doing an ADA shower in that manner you want to create more of a ‘speed bump’ than have the floor rise to an apex and back down. Same concept but more rounded. Then I normally use 2×2 mosaic tiles and continue them into the shower. The mosaics can conform to the speed bump without too much problem. You just need to make sure the bump is rounded enough.
Roger, right now I’m waiting for my preslope to set. I built a bench into the back of my shower. To water proof this bench is it a good idea to run the rubber liner from the floor all the way up the bench? I still haven’t put the cement board on the bench yet and I will be using redguard on all of the cement board in the shower. Should I use the liner on the bench or just stick with the redguard?
Hey Brad,
Just stick with the redgard and run the liner up behind the front of the bench the same height as the rest of the shower. Redgard is a much more efficient waterproofing method, especially for horizontal surfaces.
Roger,
Getting ready to caulk transition between walls in shower and floor. Used accu color grout on floor and it is called a dove gray.(light gray almost white).
1. What type of caulking do you recommend? Should I go with the accu that has same caulking color or go with a better caulking(silicone) that has a color similar but better quality.
2.Do I caulk between marble curb and tiles under the curb that go to floor (31/2 inches of tile or should this be grouted.
3. Inside niche–grout or caulking/-4 corners and where 3 inch tile meets top 3 inch?Niche caulking is question.
4. What is easiest and neatest way to caulk wall transition and floor(I know blue tape but do you have extra tips from your experience.)
PS- used vapor barrier with 4 ply but wish I used redguard all the way will I be OK?-wanted thisto be bullet proof and did follow your advice all the way through.
Thank you for such support and knowledge
Hey Dick,
Use Tec’s accucolor colored silicone. It’s 100% silicone and will match your grout perfectly.
Technically yes, that should be caulked. (I always grout it – don’t tell anyone
)
Caulk all areas inside the niche.
Honestly – practice is the only thing that will ensure a perfect line. The tape will help a lot.
Your shower will be just fine built like that. It’ll last until your wife gets tired of looking at that particular tile.
Hi,
First I want to say that everything on this blog is awesome. I have taken out my fiberglass shower/tub insert and am replacing it with a walking in tiled/shower. My question is, how do I move the drain to the middle of the shower and create a slope with the drain so it drains properly? I know it may seem like a silly questions but I am stumped?
Thanks for any help you can provide. I am a teacher by trade and have some handyman abilties.
Dj
Hey DJ,
Not a silly question at all. You did not say whether the current floor was wood or concrete. If it’s wood you will need to either have access from below or take out a section of the subfloor from where your current drain is to where you want it to be. If your floor is concrete you will need to to the same thing – that involves a bit more labor though. Once you have an open area you need to cut out your current drain above the p-trap – that’s the S-shaped plumbing beneath your drain. After that p-trap your drain’s plumbing should be running horizontally. It’s simply a matter of extending that horizontal pipe and replacing the p-trap and drain to where you want it.
Its me again, LOL I have done almost everything I need to do and I am getting ready to seal me travertine and grout. My questions is, what do you recommend sealing with? I want a wet look and would like to have a color enhancer to bring out the color of the travertine and the border. Do you have any suggestions? Thanks
Dj
Hey DJ,
Here you go: http://miraclesealants.com/s_seal_enhance.html Great stuff. Aquamix also makes ‘enrich n seal’ which is pretty good.
I have an upstairs master shower mud pan style that has leaked into my dining room ceiling. I have removed the floor tile and one about 10″ of tile above the floor. As the floor tile was removed, large areas of the mud deck came away as well and the the pre slope underneath has a pink color to it so I suppose that Redguard type product was used to waterproof rather than a vinyl or rubber product. Can I fill the areas of the mud deck on top of the preslope that were removed bonding it with thinset then “paint” several layers of Redgurad over the mud deck and up the walls before I reinstall the new tile to the floor and walls?
Thanks for you thoughts.
The weekend Warrior
Hey Steve,
You can do that – but it’s not gonna solve anything. First of all you don’t know whether or not those particular chunks are the spots from which the leak originated. If it’s leaking not only is the spot of the leak incorrectly installed, it’s likely that most, if not all, of the shower pan is incorrect. There are spots that aren’t leaking now which may begin later on down the road. Your best option is to tear out the entire base and begin from scratch. You can use the traditional liner method or a liquid membrane such as redgard, whichever you choose. But what you have there now is not going to last. It may have begun leaking because the deck mud itself is incorrectly mixed or installed so simply replacing those areas may not work either.
Take it out and rebuild it correctly. It isn’t that expensive for cement and sand and it will help you sleep a whole lot better at night.
Great Site!
I’ve placed My sloped floor in my shower and want to put Kerdi on it. My deck mud has popped in a few spots like it was to dry. I tried to sweep it up but it takes the top layer of the floor with it!
Can I just use thinset to fill in these areas, let it set then apply my Kerdi?
Man, you can’t be runnin’ around with a name like ‘Jim Savage’ being complimentary to people. Thanks for the compliment anyway.
As long as the area you are replacing is less than about 1/4″ deep then yes, you can use thinset. In fact you can skim the top of the entire deck to ‘lock’ all the loose particles in place and keep it nice and solid. Once it sets you can do whatever you need to on top of it.
If you have large chunks out of it you should replace it with more deck mud. You also need to ‘lock’ it into the void with thinset. If you don’t use thinset when filling the void it will be like having two separate mud beds which, in turn, may move separately.
If you install the kerdi on the deck you want to tile it first, let that set, then do your walls. I say that because you don’t want to be walking all over that kerdi once it’s down. You probably know that but I haven’t put up a lot of stuff about kerdi yet and don’t want you having a tiny hole in the floor of your shower where a piece of gravel was pushed through from walking on it repeatedly. If you want to do your walls first just skim coat the deck with thinset and let it cure then you can walk all over it without any problems.
Roger,
Great Site. Question the plumber replaced my drain for my shower, but put the bottom flange flush with the concrete floor. Now I don’t have a 3/4″ lip to start my pre-slope at.
Help Please
Hey Christopher,
What kinda plumber you got there?
Actually, it isn’t that uncommon for a plumber to do that, especially one that knows nothing about shower floors, eh?
About the only option you have is to start at nothing. You can actually do this although it is absolutely not recommended by the powers that be. Fortunately I am not part of the ‘powers that be’. Make sure you have thinset on every part of your concrete around your drain to get a firm grip on the thin layer of deck mud which will be in that spot. Start as high as you can around the outside of your drain and go up the normal 1/4″ per foot to the perimeter. You want to make sure the thinset is in place to help beef up that thin area.
Now, the deck mud may crack in that area being so thin so you need to make absolutely certain that you have it packed in there as tightly as humanly possible. Since it is only your pre-slope it is not imperative that it won’t crack. What you do want to do is make sure that if it does crack it won’t shift or move and create a void. So pack as much as you can there. With your top slope you want to do the same with the regular thickness above the liner. As long as you get as much in there as you can and pack it extremely tightly you should be just fine.
And give your plumber my website address.
Thanks Roger,
I think I fixed the problem. I took a 1/4″ piece of 4″ PVC pipe and cut it 3/4″ thick, Silliconed to the lower flange. Now I can level my pre-slope to the top of the pvc. Then put my liner down and attach on upper flange. Just had to get longer bolts to attached upper flange.
Should work OK.
i was also wondering if I could make my curb out of thinset instead of bricks. I have it formed so as to do it same time as pre-slope.
And you are the greatest. I had a locale shower builder come by and give me a price to put back my shower and I told him the old pan (33 years ago) was just layed on the concrete slab, that’s why it leaked after awhile, and he told me that is the way you do it. I told him I would be looking for someone else.
Thanks Again
Hey Christopher,
Can’t really envision what you did with the drain (well, kinda) but it sounds as if you’ve worked it out.
You can make your curb out of deck mud if you want – not thinset. (I think that’s what you meant but I wanna make sure) Thinset won’t work – deck mud, the stuff you’re making your pre-slope out of, will. Just make sure you get it packed in there really well up against your form so you don’t have any voids on the side of it.
THANK YOU! Contrary to what you’ve said – YOU are the greatest. If people would take the information available to them and make sure to ask potential ‘contractors’ the correct questions everyone could get rid of most of the problems in the tile industry. Most (99% – seriously) of the problems people have with tile installations are due to installer error! I’m convinced it’s one of two things – people that don’t know better and people that don’t give a crap. They both give my industry a bad name and they need to quit being given work! So thank you for doing your part. A contractor that knows the proper methods is worth his or her weight in gold. (That’s what I tell my wife, anyway)
If done correctly a shower will last well beyond the 33 years you’ve stated. Take your time and you will not be disappointed.
You rock!
I am getting ready to do my deck mud for my shower. I was wondering if you can use backer board for the curb. I have a hot mop over my floor now. It is also over the curb. If i can use backer board for the curb what is the best way to secure it to the curb ?
Hey Rick,
I don’t know if you can secure backer board to the curb with thinset or not. We rarely have hot mop around these parts. You can try, I guess, I just wouldn’t recommend it without first confirming that it would work with someone that would know. Unfortunately – I’m not him.
Since you’re doing deck mud anyway why not just add a bit of powdered lime to your leftover deck mud and form the curb out of that? (The lime makes it sticky so it will hang on vertical surfaces) Wet mud would make a better, more solid substrate for your curb anyway.
Sorry I couldn’t be of more help with the hot mop question. Sometimes I’m just an incompetent loser.
Roger,
THANK YOU for giving such great advice to all us “know-nothings”… for free, too!
Being the ‘know-nothing’ I am, I have a question. I have put my liner in and I’m having trouble with 2 things: I can’t seem to get it flat/tight on the bottom perimeter (where the floor meets walls) and I can’t get rid of those pesky creases in the liner. I know, I know.. I probably should’ve taken it out of the packaging and let it sit flat somewhere for a couple days. But I didn’t. Any quick ways to get rid of the creases so they don’t dam the drainage?
Thanks again!
– Jon (the over-confident, learn by failure, DIY’er)
Hey Jon,
Yup, should have laid it out and let the creases relax – but you already knew that.
The easiest way to get it to lie flat is simple – dump the top layer of mud on it. Deck mud is heavy and will hold it down, just make sure you don’t have any folds in it. Pounding down the top layer will flatten the liner. It won’t dam up the water. That will also make it lie flat in the corners as well.
Roger (The over-confident, learn by failure professional)
Thanks Roger! I thought dumping the mud might flatten it out, but certainly didnt want to try it and then have you tell me I’d screwed it up.
Its always the simplest answer, isnt it?
Learning …
Thanks again. I’ll email you again after I confuse myself again with the next step.
Hi I am considering a DIY job on my en-suite toilet/shower and have all the tiles and facilities removed, I am down now to pipes and concrete floor and sand/cement walls. We are considering a wet room shower area and are now considering our options.
Basically our floor is concrete and fully level at the minute and we have removed the old shower tray, would we need to create a slope to the drain and raise the floor with a sand and cement mixture and if so how much do we need to raise the floor ?? Our bedroom is only about 25mm above the current concrete floor so if we raise it and then have to add the membrane to the shower area what would be considering total height??
I have used your site for advice and seen mentioned shower tanking kits, would this be an option for us allowing a plastic type manufactured slope in our shower area only, what height would it be from our ground level ?
I appreciate all your assistance and perhaps my questions are senseless but we are considering this option and if it is beyond our means, Skillwise & financial we might just put a new shower tray in. Would we still need to coat with the Redgard membrane you advised in one post.
Thank you for time. Does your site take paypal donations.
Thanks
Hi Norris,
The height at your door would depend upon the distance to the furthest corner from your shower drain. Your floor, when finished, would need to be that distance in feet X .25 inches (or that distance in mm / 304.8 x 25.4) + 1.25 inches (127mm).
So, in American
that is
That distance in feet x .25 + 1.25 inches
Or, in metric
That distance in mm / 304.8 X 25.4 + 127mm
You can get the tanking kit which will give you a gradual slope up to the actual shower floor. The sizes vary from manufacturers but the average shower floor itself would actually be about 127mm high and the slope would go from the front of the shower to about 500mm out into the bathroom floor. I’m not real big on using them but they seem to work well enough.
This is all considering you using a topical waterproofing membrane atop your floor such as kerdi or redgard. If you use a traditional shower mud bed it would have to be a double layer which would make it thicker.
If you do end up putting just the shower tray in you will only need the redgard or waterproofing membrane on top of it if you make it from deck mud and plan on tiling it.
Your questions absolutely are not senseless! After some of the jobs I’ve torn out and redone I really wished the person that initially ‘installed’ them would have asked some of those ‘senseless’ questions.
My site does not take paypal donations, I may have to speak with my site about that! Just kidding, I’m happy to help, no charge. It’s what any self-respecting elf would do.
Hope that helps. If you have any more questions at all please do not hesitate to ask.
Okay, this is all coming together and making sense…sorry to be taking so much of your time…but another question (which I am sure will be answered in your Part 3 and/or your E-book): We have a concrete sub-floor — after we put the pre-slope in and the pan liner down, can we tile directly over the pan liner? Someone at Lowe’s (where I got the Oatey pan liner) told me we could do this since we have a concrete floor, but this seems contrary to everything else I have seen/read.
You are a great teacher and we appreciate your patience.
Hey Russ,
No apology needed at all. If I’d have gotten off my ass sooner and written part 3 already it wouldn’t be a problem.
You can not tile directly to the liner, regardless of what the “expert” at Lowes said. I think they should be flipping burgers rather than giving tile advice. On top of the liner you need to fabricate another mud base. This one will be 3/4″ and slope from the drain to the wall at 1/4″ per foot, same as your pre-slope. It should be a consistent 3/4″ thick since you already have your pre-slope sloped correctly – yes?
Your shower floor tile is then installed directly to that bed.
When tiling a shower, do you recommend tiling the floor or the walls first?
Sorry for the delayed response Russ, long day.
I will usually do the floor first on most of my showers. The advantage is time for me. Doing it that way I don’t have to use ledger boards and start from the second row, Then do the shower pan, tile, then go back and put in the first row. It just saves me a lot of time.
That said, you may want to do the walls first if you have the time. Start from the second row and finish the shower walls, then you can go in and make your shower floor, tile it, then put in your last row. This is sometimes better because you don’t have to worry about damaging the shower floor tile. If you already have your shower pan fabricated, however, tile it first. Easier to prevent damaged tiles than a damaged pan.
Did I confuse you yet?
Good advice…and it makes sense. One more question, though. Since we have not done the floor sloping or shower pan yet, we are thinking of doing as you suggest and put the wall tiles up first. Here’s the question: if we put up the backerboard on the walls and put up tiles from second row and up, won’t the pan liner have to then go up over the backerboard — rather than behind the backerboard? Would this be a problem?
Hey Russ,
Sorry I was tired last night.
Your liner absolutely needs to go behind your backerboard. I usually leave off a little over a foot of the bottom of the walls and actually start with the third row when I do walls first.
When you fabricate your pan you can then do your pre-slope and run your liner up into the wall then place your backerboard over it, then make your top mud bed and tile. See why it save me time to do the floor first?
Regardless of the time you have available you need to make absolutely certain that your shower pan is built properly. If a shower fails that’s where it will be 99.9% of the time. (Don’t you hate that term – 99.9%?) Okay, 100% of the time!
great advice – thank you….i just finished the first mud layer over the concrete shower floor. I have installed a pre-formed curb ( styrofoam ) over the 3 – 2 x 4’s for support. after i run the liner over the curb and tack it on the OUTSIDE – I need to install lathe, or something like that so the next layer sticks to the curb. do i use regular mortar mix, or ?? and how do you get the metal lathe to keep the sharp corners instead of rounded over the curb. thanks for all the help.
Hey David,
You can use regular deck mud for the sides of your curb as well. Just mix it a bit wetter or leave out some sand – go with about a 3 : 1 mix with portland cement or, if you’re using sand and topping mix, that’s what that ratio already is so just mix that straight.
You can take the lathe and fold it over on itself where you want the corners and use pliers – CAREFULLY so you don’t bust the wires, and squeeze the corner together. Then when you pull it back out into the shape of the curb it will hold it’s form and you can simply wrap it onto the curb.