This four part series describes methods to create a niche in your shower wall for tile. Please read through all four parts before starting. Your layout dictates the size and placement of your niche. You need all this information before making a hole in your wall! Or don’t – it isn’t my shower, eh? 
Framing
A shower niche, shelf, cubby, beer Pepsi storage, whatever you want to call it is one of the most requested add-ons for any showers I build. After all, everyone needs a place to store the important stuff – like your rubber ducky, as well as the unimportant stuff like soap and shampoo. So being the super-cool, quirky, lovable (with a healthy dose of jackassery) guy that I am – I’m gonna show you how to build one.
To the left you will see a photo of a niche with a shelf – we’re not gonna build that one. It’s just there to show you what you can do with the technique I am describing. I will explain how to do that in the last part of this series.
With any shower niche there are a couple of details you should pay attention to which will make it look like it belongs there rather than something you looked at drunk one night and thought “Hey! Let’s cut a hole in the shower wall so I can put my rubber ducky in there.” That’s not really a good look – rubber ducky or not.
One of the most important things I always do is line up the top and bottom (and sides if possible) with the grout lines in the field tile. The field tile is just the main tile on your shower wall. In doing this you keep the flow of the shower consistent and the niche doesn’t look like an afterthought – I hate that.
The way I do this is to actually install part of the field tile up to that point then I cut my niche out of the wall. This ensures you fall exactly on a grout line and don’t miss it by 1/4″ because you miscalculated. So, you need to have your wall all prepped and ready and some tile already installed before we start with the niche.
Before you start installing tile there are a couple of things you need to do. As you are preparing your walls for tile with backerboard, drywall and Kerdi, elastomeric liquid topical waterproofing membrane (No, I didn’t have my pinky in the air as I typed that. It’s just liquid membrane like Redgard) or whatever waterproofing method you’ve chosen, you need to write down the measurements to the inside and outside of the two studs between which you plan to install your niche.
Your niche needs to be placed between two wall studs. These are (normally) 14 1/2″ apart so assuming you have 12″ or 13″ tiles you can build a niche the size of one full tile wide. If you want one like the photo above it will be one tile wide and two high. Write those measurements down because once you get your walls up and ready to cut the niche out you need to know exactly where to cut.
If you have unusually placed studs (insert lame joke here) you will need to frame out the sides of the niche before covering them up with your wall substrate. Do not frame the top and bottom, only the sides. The top and bottom will be framed after we figure out exactly where they need to be placed and that happens after you already have some tile installed.
If you do end up framing it you need to add an inch to the measurement. If you have 12″ tiles make the studs 13″ apart. This is so you can add a 1/2″ piece of drywall or backerboard to each stud and have the correct measurement for your tile.
We're gonna build this one
The photo to the right is the niche I am going to walk you through. I chose this particular niche because it illustrates the point about the grout lines. And because I have pictures of it from start to finish. See how the sides and top and bottom of the niche all line up with the grout lines in the rest of the tile? It looks like it belongs there. That’s what I mean when I say type that.
This niche is 13 x 13 x 3 inches. The 13’s because that is the size of the tile and the 3 because that is the width of the bullnose. You can make the niche as deep as your wall will allow if you chose but(!) if your bullnose is only three inches wide and you choose to make your niche 3 1/2 inches deep (which is usually the amount of space between walls) you will have a 1/2″ sliver of tile on each plane of the niche behind the bullnose – and that looks like crap! So don’t do that.
Or if you chose to do that please tell everyone “the FloorElf showed me how to make that! Yeah, I know it looks like crap – he said it was gonna look like crap – but I did it anyway.” I’d appreciate it.
One more thing before we start (get on with it already!), this shower is built using the Kerdi membrane and drywall. You can, however, utilize this method with any type of shower you are building.
If you are using simply cement backerboard with a moisture barrier you will need to get Kerdi or one of the aforementioned fancy-ass word waterproofing liquids to make the niche waterproof. You cannot place a moisture barrier behind this and have it be waterproof – it simply won’t work. And your rubber ducky may burst into flames and who wants that? So snuff out your rubber ducky and lets get this damn thing built!
You may click on any of the photos below for a full-size version of how horrible my photography skills actually are.
1. Cutting the opening.
Photo 1: I have marked and cut out the opening for the niche. To the right of the niche I have installed a vertical row of tile and marked the lines with a level line from the grout joints between those tiles. That’s the big secret to getting everything lined up.
The opening is cut to the exact size. Notice on the right side of the opening you can barely make out the wall stud? That’s because there is 1/2″ space between the right side of the opening and the stud. I will install a 1/2″ piece of drywall there to bring the side flush with the opening.
In case you are unfamiliar with it – the bright orange on the wall is the Schluter Kerdi membrane. It is a thin polyethylene sheet which is installed directly to drywall to waterproof your shower. And its awesome. Just sayin’.
2. Inserting the horizontal framing
Photo 2: Measure the exact distance between the studs. Measure the top and the bottom – they may be a bit different and these measurements need to be exact. Now add 1/16″ to the measurement and cut a 2×4 that size. One for the top and one for the bottom.
Place the 2×4 between the studs and tap it down with a hammer. Don’t bang on it like its the last DMV employee you spoke with – just tap it lightly. You do not want to pound it down too far. If you do you’re SOL.
If you do happen to pound it down too far you can drive a screw into the top of it and pull it back up. You may want to use the claw on your hammer to get a good grip on it. Do not pry your hammer back like you are attempting to pull the screw out! Just place it on there in the same manner and lift the 2×4 back up.
3. Tap the 2 x 4's 1/2" down past the opening
Photo 3: Tap the 2×4 down 1/2″ past the edge of the opening you’ve cut out. Exactly 1/2″. This will allow you to install the 1/2″ drywall or backerboard to bring the top and bottom flush with the opening. Now put two screws into each one. Screw them from the front right through your substrate into the 2×4’s. You can see that in photo 4 – two in the top and two in the bottom. This keeps them in place.
If you did not previously frame the sides to the exact width (which I did with this particular niche so it is not shown) you will need to add additional framing to the sides to bring them in 1/2″ from the opening as well. You need every side of the niche 1/2″ away from the opening you’ve cut out of your wall.
Just screw any additional pieces directly to the side studs. You can use a 2×4 (1 1/2″ wide) a 1×2 (3/4″ wide) or build up 1/2″ and/or 1/4″ plywood strips to whatever you need to get them to the correct spot.
4. Inside of niche with substrate installed
Photo 4: Notice the two screws through the wall into each horizontal framing member?
Cut strips of your drywall or backerboard to the correct dimensions for the inside of the niche. In this case two each of 3 1/2″ by 14″ and 3 1/2″ by 13″. The 14″ place on the top and bottom and the 13″ on the sides. Screw those directly to the 2×4’s.
The bottom piece needs to be slightly higher in the back than the front! It needs to slope towards the opening. This is to ensure that water drains correctly out of it. By slightly I mean very – less than 1/16″ higher in the back than the front. You can just place a small cardboard drywall shim or something similar under the back part of the bottom piece. It cannot be level but you don’t want the top of your shampoo bottle sticking out of the niche – knowwhatimean? Just slope it VERY slightly. Just enough for water to drain but not enough for your soap to slide out of it.
If you have installed the niche framing correctly the sides of the niche as well as the top and bottom should all be absolutely flush with the opening you have cut out. If not remove the offending piece and redo it. If it is not flush your niche will not come out correctly. Fix it now – later is too late.
At this point the top and bottom of your niche should be exactly level with a grout line. If so, well done, move on. If not, well, start over.
Now the final step in framing out your niche will be installing the substrate on the back. If you do not want a 3″ deep niche – you need to figure out the math yourself. If you do want a 3″ deep niche – hey, your in luck. I just happen to have photos of one.
5. Installing a filler piece for the back of the niche
Photo 5: Cut a piece of your substrate about 1/2″ smaller than your niche opening. This is simply a filler piece for the back. You want a 3″ niche and a 2×4 is 3 1/2″ thick. If you place a 1/2″ filler in the back of the niche POOF! – 3″ niche. (That’s a good name for a band)
Install this filler piece with thinset. If you have a wall on the other side of this wall you do not want to use nails or screws or your wife is gonna kill you for drilling a screw through grandma’s eye in the portrait hanging on the other side of that wall. Thinset is less heartache.
This is a perfect example of why you want to have at least a very general idea of your layout and tile sizes before you start any tile installation. Any add-ons you choose to use will usually center around the specific size of the tile to look correct. If you build your niche for 13″ tile and end up with 12″ tile, well, you’re screwed. It won’t look right. It will look exactly like what it is – an afterthought.
6. The final piece installed and ready to waterproof. This is not yet waterproof! See Part 2
Photo 6: Then take the piece you cut out for your original opening and it will now become the back wall of your niche. And it better damn well fit. 
If it doesn’t, start over. Use thinset on this piece as well.
And that’s it, the basic building of your niche. General rules to take into consideration are:
You usually want to keep your niche the width of one tile. This eliminates any skinny pieces on either side of the niche or strangely placed lines and allows you to line everything up with a grout line. It also eliminates the need for a grout line through the back of your niche to keep the lines consistent.
Keeping the niche the width of one tile is the least important. It is open to interpretation more than the others. If you make it skinnier it may look better. Sometimes a square niche just does not look right and usually looks better in a rectangular shape instead. As long as your top and bottom measurements fall on a grout line you do not need to worry about funny cuts or lines. It’s your shower – make your niche however you think it looks best.
You want to make your niche the height of one or two tiles or one tile plus your liner piece or whatever else you’re placing in the field tile. You want it the height of whatever the space between two horizontal grout lines may be. This eliminates any “L” cuts in your tile to accommodate the niche.
Use common sense regarding whatever is on the other side of the wall you plan on installing the niche into. If there is a handball court on the other side of that wall – pick a different wall. Do the same when placing anything onto that wall. Don’t drive a 16 penny nail into it to hang a portrait of your gerbil – you’ll probably hit tile (or your rubber ducky).
If that particular wall is an outside wall and you live in a cold climate – choose another wall. You only have essentially 1/2″ of free space (your filler piece) between the back of your niche and the outside wall. You cannot get enough insulation in there to prevent freezing. And your shower will be cold, really cold. And your shampoo will freeze. Really, pick another wall.
If you have a liner or listello or row-on-point going through your shower a niche will usually look better with the top either right below it (as in the photos above) or even with the top of it. Make it look like you actually planned it. Not like this photo here:
Garbage!
This is a photo of the shower I tore out and replaced with the one you see at the very top of the page. This is garbage! It was done by someone claiming to be a professional – bullshit! Click on it – I dare ya. Partake in the full glory of an improper tile installation. The person that installed this is what I fondly refer to as a hack. If inflicting serious bodily harm ever becomes legal – these people are on my list. You just don’t take someones money and give them shit work and run like a little . . . sorry, I digress. Hacks piss me off.
A lot.
.
Correct
I will, however, save all that fun for another post. My point was the overall look of the placement of the niches. It is way too low, it looks like a shelf for a phone with that corner bench. It does not line up (except for the very top) with any grout lines. It is not level, although you cannot see that very well. Basically it looks like someone drunk cut a random hole in the wall, stuck tile to it and called it a niche. It looks out of place – that’s what I want you to avoid.
The photo below it is from almost the same angle after it was redone correctly. See the difference? It’s all in the flow, baby! (Sorry, I had Sammy Davis Jr. going through my head just now – yeah!) It simply belongs. Very existentialistic, dont’cha think? (I learned that word in college. Comes in very handy in my day to day life as a tile contractor. )
In my next post I will describe how to waterproof your niche so all your hard work doesn’t disintegrate in three months. It is currently 2am and I am out of beer need to get some sleep. Until next time I would like to leave you with a photo that explains one of the biggest reasons I put my time into this blog to help you guys out. If you’re squeamish you may want to look away. Have a great night.
I give you: The Incorrect Way to Build a Niche!
Now that your niche is ready to waterproof let’s do that – you know, since you’re building a shower and they tend to get moist…Part 2 – Waterproofing a niche.
Hoping to rip out master shower in Sept. have a good tile contractor. I want a long 12″ wide shower niche with a couple glass shelves. I want the bottom shelf to curve out an inch or two. This shelf will be 3/4″ granite. I want to use it as a foot rest for leg shaving. How low do you think this step/bottom shelf can be without looking weird?
Hi Merrie,
I dunno – how low do YOU think it can go without looking weird? I don’t wake up and look at it every day – you do.
You can either build it low enough to have a comfortable height for the foot rest or build a regular niche and a second one down lower for the shelf. I actually build quite a few of those. You can see a couple here: Shaving shelves in custom showers
I’m building two niches toward each end on my back wall. I waterproofed the other walls with the traditional method using 4 mil plastic. I plan on using redgaurd for the niches. My question is, should I just redgaurd the entire wall? My niches are about half way up the wall. Can I use plastic on the lower half below the niches and just redgaurd the the niches and above to the height of the shower head? I don’t see how water would drain properly if I used plastic and painted redgaurd on just the niches.
Hey Matt,
Yes, you can do that. It’ll work fine.
To redgard niches in a traditionally built shower you would silicone the barrier to the back of the backerboard around the perimeter of the niche. This creates a dam which water will run around and the redgard keeps water out of the open area of the cavity.
Roger,
Thanks for providing such useful information! I bought your “liquid membrane” PDF and am working through it, and I’m also building a niche. I was wondering if you have any preferred thinset over Redgard (with 1/2″ Durock as the substrate)? I already have some Versabond, but I don’t mind spending money to do it right, if you think that Flexbond, for example, might be better. I’ll be installing 3×6 subway tile on the shower walls. Thanks! Chris
Hey Chris,
If you’re using Home Depot the versabond is the one you want (unless you’re installing natural stone subway tiles – then use the flexbond). Versabond is good stuff.
Cool, thanks! One more question. 6″ fiberglass tape is recommended for changes of plane with Redgard, but the Depot doesn’t sell anything wider than 2″ (unless I want a 3ft wide roll that I’d have to cut up myself, and might not even be alkali-resistant). Any suggestions as to where to find some? Thanks again, Chris
Hey Chris,
You’re likely not gonna find any locally. This is what I use: Latricrete waterproofing membrane fabric
Hi Roger:
Fabulous website for newbies like me. Question: I am planning on tiling the shower ceiling with granite: 12 x 12 x 3/8. So far I have reinforced structural members (24″ oc) and installed 3/4 plywood. If there is deflection, I can’t see or feel it. I have attached a Kerdi membrane to the ply with thinset (modified) and have let it cure for a few days. I am a little concerned about the strength of the Kerdi bonded to the ply because it really isn’t a ‘shear’ force in play. So should I be concerned? Secondly, assuming that this is ok, there seems to be great confusion about the next step. Schluter calls for non-modified thinset but the thinset reps tell me to use modified because of the adhesiveness (so I won’t be brain-damaged from falling granite). Your input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Larry
Hey Larry,
Plywood should not be used as a tile substrate – even under kerdi. On a ceiling you may get away with it – I don’t know. That said, your next step is unmodified thinset over the kerdi. The thinset reps tell you that because they want to sell you thinset.
While it is ‘stickier’, schluter requires unmodified.
Your thinset doesn’t need to be sticky to bond tile to the ceiling – read through this and it will show you how to do it without a hardhat: How to tile shower ceilings
Thank you again for explaining this. I have another question though (at least I’m trying to keep them relevent to your blog posts
) I will soon be replacing my old tub with a 60×32 sterling whirlpool tub. The tub will be surrounded by 3 walls which I am planning to tile up the walls and the ceiling. I would like to tile the apron to cover the exposed front of the tub. Can I tile directly on the tub’s apron or should I build a frame with 2x4s and cement board (I also heard you can use steel framing studs)? If I need a frame, what do you think the would be the best way to build and secure the frame. There is also supposed to be a removeable access panel for the tubs motor on the apron (haven’t bought it yet so I don’t know). If I need access to it, could I possibly just caulk around a few of the tiles instead of grouting in case it needs removed. Thanks
Hey Matt,
You’ll need to build an apron. The tub moves too much, tile won’t last. It’s easiest to build your frame and attach it to the walls on each side of the tub – not to the tub itself. Yes, you can caulk around one or two tiles for an access panel. In fact, keep an eye out and I’ll post my method of creating a tub access panel – it’s EPIC!
Just kidding, it’s pretty good, though.
I love these DIY help sites. Thanx for the info.
Quick question: Roughly how high off the floor should the niche be?….My current plan, as I will be using a roughly 12.5 inch tile, would be about 50″ to line up with my grout line. Is that too high?
I could throw in row or two of “decorative tiles at 3″ high and drop my niche to about 40 or 43” from the floor.
Thoughts?
Thanx,
Steve
Hey Steve,
Not too high for me – but I’m five-foot-fifteen inches tall.
Whatever is comfortable and looks best to you (your wife) is the correct height. There are no real standards for it. Make it functional.
I have lots of space to build a shower niche since the tub is adjacent to the kitchen cabinet bulkhead. Is there a downside to making it too deep? Would 6″ be ok? The only downside I thought of is the mosaic, which goes in the back of the inset, would not be as prominent if it’s 6″ vs 4″. I’m using 2″ bullnose and 4 1/4″ wide subway so I’ll have a grout line regardless. Thanks
Hey Andrew,
No issues at all with that. The deeper the niche the more rubber duckies you can stick in it.
Just make sure the bottom of it is sloped correctly so water doesn’t collect in the back of it.
Ok Referring back to the comment from RANDI. I have the same questions. My husband installed cement board all around the shower and built 2 niches. The inside walls of the niche are the cement board, but the back wall of it is the 6mm poly and the drywall from the other wall behind it. He plans on just tiling on that and I don’t think that is right. It would be just tile on drywall and thats it. It wouldn’t be strong and I am worried about the moisture since the one niche is facing the shower and if my boys decide to take the shower want and spray all over that niche could potentially get really wet. But like you said to install a Filler piece… how do you attach it to the drywall behind ?? There is nothing to screw it to as the studs are on the sides and the cement board is already attached on the inner walls. Do you get me??
We haven’t started tiling but I want to resolve this ! And he has done alot of tiling so thats not a problem, but we may contract it out and I don’t want a contractor to wonder what the heck we (or he should I say) was thinking with leaving it with just the drywall behind (which is a hallway leading to the bathroom).
Can you elaborate with me what exactly we should do, thanks !
Hi Michelle,
The filler piece, as well as the back piece on which tile is installed, are both installed with thinset. It can be thinsetted directly to the back of the hallway wall. The niche in this instance needs to be waterproofed with a topical membrane such as kerdi or redgard. If you want to build one that is waterproofed with a moisture barrier (plastic behind your backer) then you’ll need to build an independent frame and niche, waterproof it, then install it into the wall by screwing the whole thing to the studs along the side.
Hi,
I’m doing a bath/shower with 4×8 white ceramic (subway). The matching bullnose is 2×6. What I’m not sure about is how I could construct an inset with with these materials. The ceramic has an unfinished edge, so it would not look good exposed, and the bullnose pieces are not wide enough, so I would need to have a grout seem in the niche. I’ve been to the big box stores in the area and I can’t find any other size bullnose (e.g. 3×6) in white ceramic. Is there another way to do this? Thanks
Hey Andrew,
There are a couple of options. I have done some with the grout line in the niche behind the bullnose, it looks fine. It looks better if you offset the fill-in piece to maintain the subway pattern. Here’s a pic ungrouted: Subway tile niche without grout. And here’s one after it was grouted: Subway tile niche.
Alternatively you could get one 12×12 piece of white marble and make the perimeter pieces for the niche. Marble can be bullnosed fairly easily. You could also use a metal transition strip around the edge like schluter, although that may diminish the overall shower look.
That looks sharp — I’ll go with the first option. I was able to find quarter round in white ceramic and the corresponding corner pieces, but I think the right angle look of the bullnose is sharper and more modern looking.
Hey Roger, a nice(niche) question for you. You said that in order to line up the niche with the grout lines, that you lay a few rows of tile up the wall. With the hardiboard on the wall, you cant score and snap, so how do you cut through it? I know it isnt recommended to use power tools because of the dust, so what tool specifically do you use? Thank you.
Hey Scotty,
I use a rotozip. But I have used a utility knife and a backerboard scoring tool. If you use those two interchangeably you can eventually get all the way through it. It’s a pain, though. If you use a rotozip on low speed it’ll go through it with a minimum of dust – and wear a mask. And have your vacuum on right there as you do it. It’s fairly laborious.
Hi Roger,
I think I’ve been working on this tile project too long! The niche details are confusing me. I have a niche that is 24 1/2″ H X 14 1/2 W. As it sits now, the niche is 4″ deep. That’s the 2×4 plus the 1/2″ hardibacker board that is on the wall. Add the wall tile to that and it’s 4 1/4″. Even if I put the 1/2″ backerboard in the back of the niche, it brings it to 3 3/4″. My bullnose is 3″. How do I deal with the extra 3/4″? I don’t want it to look like crap by having a 3/4″ piece of tile behind the bullnose.
Hey Dan,
Place an addition 1/2″ layer of backer into the back of the niche – two total layers for a 1″ total. This will take the depth of it, as it is now, down to 3″. the tile you put on the wall outside the niche is the same thickness as the tile you put in the back of the niche – yes? So you’ll still have three inches. All you need to do is add a 1″ thick layer of backer into the back of the niche.
Roger,
Can I mix traditional floor method with topical wall method? I want to use plywood was my substrate in order to attach grab bars when (and where) needed down the road. My thought is that I would apply the Kerdi membrane directly over top of the pan liner on the walls.
Hey David,
Yes, you can use topical walls with a traditional floor. HOWEVER! You can not use plywood as your wall substrate! It will move – A LOT. The tile over the face of it, even with kerdi, will not withstand this movement. Your grout will crack and possibly your tile as well. You need to use cement backerboard for your walls.
If you are doing it in anticipation of installing grab bars later on down the road get a couple of 2×12’s and cut and fit them between the studs at the proper height. Either just where you think the grab bars will be or even all the way around the shower. It will give you solid backing for when you do that.
Hey Roger,
You mention that plywood cannot be used for a shower wall. I am using Kerdi board for my walls, but when I demo’d the old shower, the studs I found are a mess as far as producing a flat surface… If I screw the somewhat flexible Kerdi board into those, it’ll not produce a flat surface… So I thought about first placing a sheet of plywood (1/2″) to span the uneven studs, then putting the Kerdi board over that… Am I on the right track?
Peter
Plywood beneath kerdi board is still going to move a lot. You need to replace or sister the existing studs to a flat plane. You can not have a solid sheet of plywood behind your wall substrate.
Roger,
Can you comment further on this? How/why does the plywood move? I do have plywood as the actual substrate for tiled floors… But you say above that it is not okay to have it behind the Kerdi-Board substrate for walls… Please help me understand this.
Peter
Wood moves. Any wood. It will expand and contract regularly with changing seasons, humidity and even temperature from a shower. Continuous expansion and contraction behind a wall substrate will eventually crack tiles. It is a bigger issue in walls surrounding a shower because you’ll get that movement several times a day as opposed to weekly or monthly on a floor.
Hi Roger!
My shower tile project was delayed, but back on track now…I have one simple question, you may have answered somewhere but I want to be SURE I do this correctly.
Can I apply copious amounts of Redguard to the sheetrock in the back of my niche, and apply the back tile directly to that? My bullnose tile are 6″ wide, gonna have to cut them anyway, so the deeper niche is possible. Thanks Dude!
Hey Jeffrey,
Not ideal and not recommended. That said, as long as the bottom of your niche is slope correctly and you put on a shitload (yes, that is the technical amount needed) of redgard on the back you’ll be fine. Don’t tell the tile police I told you that.
“copious” seemed a more polite term, but as a Southerner I know the term “shitload”…thanks!!
Hi!!
Quick question.. I have a w17.5, h12.5 tile.. i did 2 nitches, but my bull nose is only w8, h 3.5.. the tile place doesn’t have tile size bullnose.. if i cut the tile for the sides and upper and lower pieces for the niche, im facing brown edges, which turns the whole thing ugly.. what do you suggest, so it doesn’t look crappy? right now the niche aligns beautifully with the rest of the tile work.. i feel like i have to make some sort of a compromise..
thanks very much!
Hi Sara,
You can use the smaller bullnose, get a trim piece (like schluter) or get a natural stone which matches or compliments your tile and have it bullnosed – you can then cut it to whatever size you need. I prefer the latter – do the inside of the niche with natural stone.
i am having mosaic pieces as accent mark around in a line the shower.. can i use those pieces for the sides?
Hi Sara,
Yup, no problem with that at all.
Roger, my mapie ultra flex2 will be ok for my taping and floating hardy and then then for laying my tile over the red guard doing ultra flex2 again too for my 12″ porcelin tiles?
Thanks your the best wish you were here in TexaCarol dawson
Yup, the ultraflex will work fine for all of it.
Roger,
I already framed in my niche in wall with 2x 6 open into master bath, 1/4 “hardy backer board would not be ok to use with Red gaurd ? what about arround my small window also ?
Thanks for all your help
Hey Carol,
1/4″ hardi will be fine for both with redgard over them.
Roger
thanks for answer and my thin is ultraflex2 by mapie .ok to do all taping and floating and install niche hardy i have 1/2 and 1/4 since i did backwardsi will work ondry layoutthen decide 1/2 or 1/4.you are the greatestever love yoursight i have started printing out some info so i don’t have to runbackandlook it up.
ThanksAMillion
Caroldawson
Great post. Also, I’ve read others on this site. Thanks for the insightful posts and pics, and humor
Hey Roger,
I will be using cement board and a waterproof membrane to build my niche. One question I have is, Do I need to apply mortar to all of the joints between the cement board inside of the niche before applying the membrane, or will the membrane be enough to protect water from getting into the joints?
Thanks,
Travis
Hey Travis,
Nope, the membrane will be enough.
Thanks Roger,
O.K. But do you think there would be any adverse effects of filling the joints with thinset, just to give the liquid membrane a more solid substrate to adhere to? Also, are you leaving any gap between the strips of substrate inside the niche, or are you butting them right up against each other?
Nope, won’t hurt at all. You can leave gaps and fill them or you can butt the seams – inside a niche with that small of an area it doesn’t really make too much of a difference.
Hey Roger,
I’m putting a double niche in my shower with the two niches separated by a tiled shelf. To tie into some other elements, the shelf on which the tile will be installed has to be exactly 1/2″ thick. Is there a material you would suggest? My first instinct. Was MDF, but I’ve learned that my instincts are apparently terrible, so I thought I’d better ask the exlert. Thanks, John.
Hey John,
1/2″ cement backerboard would be about the only suitable substrate for that application – water won’t affect it. You can also use 1/2 kerdi-board if you have someplace it is available to you – but that’s quite a bit to spend just for the shelf substrate.
Hey Roger!
Great website! I have a quick question regarding waterproofing my self-made niche into my durock cbu. I currently have 6 mil poly attached to my studs, and then I have Durock over the poly. The niche I made is unfortunately on an exterior wall, and I know that is not recommended but it does look nice there. I’m hoping the only drawback is insulation and nothing else. But anyways, I digress…
I’m just trying to understand something. Can you explain to me why I can’t cut up my 6 mil poly vapor barrier to fit into my niche to waterproof it? That being instead of cutting up a sheet of waterproofing membrane such as you have excellently done in your example. If I put 6 mil poly behind it, won’t it be water proof if I silicone any holes in it as a result of screws that are needed to attach the durock? Or do I REALLY need to go buy something like Redgard or kerdi?
Hey Jason,
I never said you can’t do that – ever (unless I was drunk at the time).
That is the way they used to be waterproofed all the time. Just cut the same shape out of a piece of your membrane as the kerdi waterproofing I’ve described and install it the same way behind your substrate. The only difference is that you need to silicone any fastener holes and rather than using thinset to attach the corner flaps, etc. you use silicone instead. Topical membranes simply made the technique faster and more efficient, it’s a better way to do it. But the other way works just fine.
Awesome! You are the man, I must have misread that from you initially. I have a couple of questions regarding my niche installation if you have the time to answer them. The first one is, I made the mistake of installing 2 niches on an exterior wall and removed the interior insulation. Should I cut a slit in my 6 mil poly (that I fitted to my niche already) where I made my niche and push some insulation in there? Or is it okay to just leave it without the insulation? I live in Missouri, and our winters aren’t soooo bad. And is the only reason why people don’t install niches in exterior walls due to insulation loss? Just curious
The other question I have is I found your website too late, and I already put my 6 mil poly fitted to my niche in. I used Lowes house wrap tape for the seams as well as silicone caulking. I ended up just cutting up a big square of 6 mill poly, shoved it in the niche, and tried to tape it down to fit in well. It fit okay but of course had some folds in the corners where there was overlap. The reason I did it without cutting slits for the corners and fitting it exactly (besides not finding your website yet) was to prevent any cuts/breaches in my 6 mil poly where water could seep into my wall. I originally thought that would be better than cutting it up. Anyways, then I got paranoid, and then cut up a 6 mil poly again but fit it properly and put it over the previous 6 mil poly I made. I did this out of complete stupidity and paranoia about possible breaches in my previous 6 mil poly I made for the niche (since I used some staples to staple it to the studs as well as tape). So I made a small “moisture sandwich” around the niche area due to 2 layers of 6 mil poly there. Everywhere else is just the normal 1 layer of poly. Anyways, do you think this setup will be okay for the small niches I made (12X12) in an exterior wall. I would hate to have to rip it all out and do it again.
Also, I read a ton of stuff on your website today, it is sooooo awesome! You’ve answered so many of my questions already (weep holes, corner shelves out of tiles, etc)! You’re the man!
Yes, the only reason is heat loss (and frozen shampoo
). You’ll likely be just fine in Missoura (as my grandmother used to call it).
I also think your double-lined niche will be fine and won’t create any problems. You just don’t want stuff (including moisture) between two layers.
Whew! I feel better now, I really didn’t want to have to rip it out and do it again. You are the man, period! Thanks so much… I may have a few other questions as I go along, but so far after reading your website all day, you’ve answered a ton of them (caulking vs grout in plane changes, causes of cracks in tile, etc). Thanks so much for your help, this website is the bomb!
Hi. My husband and I (I should say my husband is doing most of the work
) are redoing our bath/shower and were wanting to add a niche instead using attachments. We are working on a low DIY budget too.
We have a question about the backing of the niche.
You have: “Photo 5: Cut a piece of your substrate about 1/2″ smaller than your niche opening. This is simply a filler piece for the back.”
What did you use for your filler piece?
You then have: “Then take the piece you cut out for your original opening and it will now become the back wall of your niche.”
We are using 1/2″ cement Durock backer board to put our tile on and a little confused with using this on top of the filler piece. Wouldn’t we be loosing valuable depth space in our niche.
And of course we don’t want to screw through the other side of the wall. Are we able to use smaller screws to just attach the piece of backer board we cut out to the wall behind (which would be the bedroom)? I am not even sure if I am making sense anymore since we have been trying to figure this out for the past couple hours.
I appreciate the help!!
Thanks!
Hi Randi,
I used the same material I use as my wall substrate as my filler piece. If you are using kerdi you can do that with drywall, anything else and you need to use backerboard.
You will lose depth, the reason I do it this way is that most bullnose pieces are only 3″ wide, an empty wall cavity is 3 1/2″ wide. Without the filler piece you’ll have a 1/2″ strip of tile in the back of the niche – I think that looks like crap.
You can install any material in the back of the niche with just thinset – no screws needed. Yes, thinset will adhere anything to the back of the drywall.
Thanks!! That helped clarify.
: )
Thanks Roger,
That’s helpful. The other oddity, other then the width of the niche, are the tiles themselves. My wife wants to use the floor tiles in the niche which are porcelain plank tiles 24″ x 6″ and the wall tiles are small staggered pieces of marble (don’t know what you call that type of tile) so you have to cut the end to make a straight vertical edge. The spaces between them are less then a 1/16 th so I don’t think I use any spacers between them. (#1) Do these types of tiles change any part of the process?
One general tile question if you don’t mind. When I tore up the old flooring I found they had 2 1/2″ of concrete and layers of tile on top of the plank sub floor. I tore that all out and want to build it back up. I put 3/4″ plywood down glued and screwed and am also putting cement board on top of that. (#2) When you level a floor would you level the plywood then lay the cement board or lay the cement board and level the top layer? I also plan on using the Schluter coupling membrane if that makes any difference. (#3) Also, if you lay a 4′ level on the floor, how much of a gap do you need to see to bother using any leveler?
Thanks again,
I really appreciate your input,
Grant
Hey Grant,
Those are offset mosaics. No, you don’t need spacers except between the sheets (normally, unless they start to scrunch together as you are installing them) and no, they don’t change the aspect of anything I’ve told you.
You had a mud deck beneath your floor tile. If you are using ditra you don’t really need the backerboard, but it doesn’t hurt anything. If using cement board only you always want to level the top layer. Installing backer screws through your leveling oftentimes cracks or compromises the leveling material.
Standards for flatness on a single horizontal plane is typically 1/8″ in eight feet – so 1/16″ is the largest gap you want to see. However! you are using a large format tile (over 15 inches on any given side) so that cuts your allowable variation in half – 1/16″ in eight feet. (Welcome to my world
) But, since you are using ditra you can actually use a larger trowel such as a 1/4″ x 1/4″ or 5/16″ when you install your ditra. Then, as you lay the ditra into the thinset, take your straight-edge and use it to smooth it down and flatten it. You can see how I use that technique in the post about floor heat here: Installing Suntouch In-floor Heat. I’m going over heating wire but the technique is the same.
I wouldn’t bother with the leveler at all, you already have everything you need.
Hey Roger,
Thanks for the site. I’m doing a bath remodel and I’m currently down to the studs. I’ve already done a lot of the framing including moving the back of the tub/shower wall. I placed the studs to accommodate for the niche, but haven’t framed out the niche. First my question would be is there a way to accurately frame out the niche before the cement board goes up? My wife wants the niche approximately 3 ft wide by 1 ft high. You already talked about adding the half inch all around for the backer board, but my second question is when you are measuring how much do you add for the membrane and thin set, along with the grout lines? Because, if I for instance frame out 37 inches wide for a 36 in niche, I will come up short since my boarder tiles are only 11 3/4″ long. I know 1/4 in is way to much for the grout line, but how much do you add for all those other little variables to get an accurately sized niche?
Thanks again,
Grant
Hey Grant,
Absolutely you can frame it out beforehand. If you want the grout lines to match up exactly, though, you’ll need to be fairly exact with your measurements and framing. The first thing to do is lay out however many tiles you’ll have from your base up to the bottom of the niche, with the spacers, just like they will be installed on the wall and measure from one end to the other. That will give you the exact size of that many tiles with the grout lines.
Take that measurement and subtract from it the thickness of your backerboard that will be used on the bottom of the niche, then subtract another 1/8″ or so for the membrane and thinset. That will give you the height of your bottom stud for the framing. To figure out the other three sides of the niche lay out the tiles that will go inside the niche and measure that and ADD the thickness of your backer plus 1/8″ – that will give you the measurement from that first stud. Always, always, always frame it out a little larger than you think it should be, about 1/8″ – 1/4″ or so. You can always build the tile inside the niche out toward the center of it to make up for that, but if you build it too small you’re SOL.
Hey bakemoney,
The easy one first – yes, you can use the kerdi drain with deck mud – it’s the only way I do it. I don’t use the styrofoam pans.
The liquid membranes, once cured, are a hell of a lot more durable than you might think. You actually need to TRY to puncture it once you get it installed.
Hydrostatic pressure prevents the water from wicking through the seams. The same applies to any custom corners with the pinholes. You can actually curl a piece of the membrane into a cone with a pinhole in the bottom and fill it with water and it won’t leak. Hydrostatic pressure, it’s a physics thing.
It works or I wouldn’t use it. Given the numbers (and yes, I’ve actually played with the numbers – I used to be a physicist) if you had a seam at the bottom of a 1 foot square column of water the column would need to be approximately 2 MILES high before the gravitational pull of the column would cause the water to penetrate through the seam.
Kerdi-fix. It’s the shit.
Hi Roger,
I’m planning out three bathrooms so I have a lot of reading to do on your site! Here’s the first (batch) of what will probably be many questions.
I’ll probably go with Hardi and Kerdi on the walls. Tiles are 10″x14″. Is the Hardi strong enough to support the niche framing or does it really need to be attached somewhere to a stud? Do you use the Kerdi corners or just make your own? Is it possible to cut the Hardi without damaging the partially installed field tiles? In another article you mention that all changes in the tile plane need to be caulked not grouted, how about all the plane changes (I wanted a direct flight) in the niche.
I’m guess that I’ll end up building the niche externally so all the corners can be screwed together, cutting out the backside of the wall and attaching the niche to the studs, Hardi, and drywall when the back side is replaced. Yes, I like things built strong. Afterall, I don’t want ducky to take a tumble and get hurt!
Thanks!!!
Damn, guess I should have read ahead.
I see the next article discusses water proofing and I read the question about the plane change at the back of the nice (didn’t mention the plane changes at the inside corners or to the field tiles. Actually in a one tile size niche, every intersection is a plane change!
Hey Rob,
Yes, the hardi is strong enough to support your niche. You can cut the hardi out with tile partially installed, but it’s a pain in the ass. If possible either cut it out before you install the hardi or use a power tool like a dremel or rotozip to cut the hole out for your niche. If I have kerdi corners in the truck I use them, if I don’t I make ’em.
Caulk all inside changes of plane – including in the niche. Grout outside changes of plane.
I’m thinking that at least for my first bathroom I should cut it after a partial tile install. I’ll bet that I’d get the measurements wrong and cut it in the wrong place. Inside plane changes, got it!
Thanks again!