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How to Install Suntouch WarmWire In-Floor Heating Part 2

by Roger

Installed WarmWire Heating Elements

Figure 8

Now that your floor looks like a can of silly string exploded (figure 8 ) its time to add more layers to it and cover up all your hard work.  If you have not yet done all the hard work then your floor doesn’t look like that. Check out How to install WarmWire Part 1. I’ll wait.

Okay, you may want to check out a speed reading class. Just sayin’. :D My preferred method is Schluter Ditra underlayment installed atop the WarmWire for your tile installation.

The best method of leveling out your floor for your Ditra would be an SLC or Self-Leveling Cement. This product is mixed with water and poured over your WarmWire. When mixed properly (follow the instructions to the letter – really) and poured it will – wait for it – level itself. When cured you will be left with a level, flat floor.

You can actually install your tile directly to this layer if you chose to do so. I do not chose to do so. I prefer to have an additional uncoupling membrane above these layers then my tile. That’s just how I roll.

For purposes of speed (SLC requires 24 hours to cure) I will level the floor above the wires with mortar. If you chose to do this, and you may since it is considerably less expensive, you need to take absolute care with the method I utilize. You risk damaging the wire while leveling the floor so be careful.

To level the floor above the WarmWire with mortar I use a 3/16″ square notch trowel. Mine is metal – yours should not be! You can purchase a plastic trowel make exclusively for use over the wire. These are much safer to use as they would require actually trying to damage the wire with it. It’s difficult to damage it accidentally if you use the plastic version.

The most difficult thing to do over in-floor heating elements is installing tile properly. That means flat, flat, flat. By using the ditra and utilizing my method you will begin your tile installation with a flat substrate over the heating element.

I mix my mortar (thinset) fairly thick for this. It assists in holding the shape and getting absolute coverage with the mortar – no voids in the mortar bed. I will first use the flat side of my trowel and fill all the areas between the wires moving my trowel in the same direction the wires are running.

Leveling over WarmWire for Ditra Installation

Filled and Combed

In the left side of this photo I have the flat troweled the mortar and in the right side it is ‘combed’. Notice everything is running the same direction as the heating wires.

Once that is all filled in I will flip the trowel over to the grooved side and ‘comb’ the thinset in the same direction by placing the trowel so the wires are between the grooves. That is so that the teeth of the trowel are actually touching the floor beneath the wire and the wires are between the notches. This will give you a grooved bed on which to install your Ditra.

Once that is finished place your Ditra over the top and grab your straight edge, level, 2 x 4, or whatever you have that is straight and handy. You want to press the Ditra into the thinset to it fully embeds into the fleece on the back of the Ditra. Place your straight edge on top of the Ditra and run it back and forth in the direction the wires are running or at a slight angle (figure 9).

Leveling Ditra over WarmWire

Figure 9

If you run your straight edge in the other direction you will end up with a roller coaster for a floor. Your straight edge will go from the top of the wires into the spaces between the wires and back up. It will not be flat if you do it in this manner. By keeping it either in the same direction, or a 45 degree angle, as the wires it will always remain on top of the wires for the length of your straight edge. Your floor will come out flat and even.

You need to make sure you put enough pressure on the straight edge to embed the Ditra fleece into the thinset. If you stand back you can see the difference in the color or shade through the top of the Ditra. It will turn a darker shade when embedded correctly and you will be able to see any spots you may have missed.

Leveling Ditra over WarmWire

Flat!

Installed and Uninstalled Ditra over WarmWire

Embedded and not

The left side of this photo shows the Ditra embedded correctly and the right side the Ditra is simply laid onto the mortar bed without embedding it yet.

Simply keep doing this as you walk (crawl) your way out of the room. Be careful not to step or kneel on any parts you’ve finished. There is a considerable amount of mortar beneath your Ditra so it is easy to put ‘dents’ in it with your foot or knee. As long as you use a fairly decently sized straight edge you should end up with a perfectly flat, stable floor ready for the tile of your dreams.

After 24 hours you can walk on the Ditra to wire your heating element and install your tile. You need to wait this long for it to cure. Stepping or crawling on it prematurely will create dents or otherwise compromise your membrane and substrate. Be patient.

Ensuring Ditra is flat over WarmWire

Contractor Glamour Shot!

Wiring the control box and heating element is fairly straightforward. Read through the directions included with your control box to ensure it is wired the same as I am describing – it may not be. I don’t know, I can’t see it from here.

There are three things you need to attach to the control box: the power from the house, the heating element, and the temperature control probe. The power from the house gets wired to the ‘LINE’ side of the control box and the heating element is wired to the ‘LOAD’ side.

The power from the house consists of three wires. They should be white, black, and ground which is usually green or a bare copper wire. The ground is not wired to the box, only to the heating element. The black is wired to the black and white to white of the control box. Easy enough even if you’re colorblind. The black wire is the hot wire! It’s not like your car radio in high school. The white is neutral. This is the way it should be but I didn’t wire your house so don’t blame me if it isn’t.

WarmWire Control Box Wiring

Figure 10

The probe has two wires – red and black. They are wired into the appropriate clips in the back of the control box.

The heating element has white, black, and silver. White to white, black to black, silver to ground. Please note that in this photo (figure 10) I have two different heating elements running to the control box so there is twice as much electrical spaghetti hanging out of the wall. You should not have that many wires.

After it is all wired up just stuff all the wires straight back into the box and

WarmWire Control Box Pins

Figure 11

attach the control box to the wall. The face of the control box is plugged into the back plate with the pin cluster in the back of it (figure 11). Place it in there carefully. They bend easily if not lined up correctly – just trust me on that one without testing it for yourself.

Now you can turn the breaker back on. Oh, you turned that off, didn’t you? Sorry, if you are currently sporting a Yahoo Serious hairdo, it may be my fault. You want to turn the breaker off before you start wiring.

Now the bad news – after you install your tile you must wait 3 – 6 days before turning on your underfloor heating. You need to give your mortar plenty of time to fully (relatively) cure before zapping it with unnatural heat. Doing it sooner may compromise the strength of the mortar and, in turn, your tile installation. You don’t want to do that now, do you?

WarmWire Control Box Installed

Warm Tootsies!

You’ll just have to wear socks for a couple of more days.

There you go – warm tootsies for those cold mornings. If this has helped you out please send me a photo of your completed tile installation. I would love to see what people do with my good advice and bad humor. I keep tellin’ my wife that it is a great combination but, you know, she doesn’t believe me. Oh well, extreme jackassery is getting to be my tag line so why quit what works?

Send me your photos at FloorElf@FloorElf.com and lets see what you can do.

Tell your friends what a jackass I am!
Pernille January 31, 2012 at 2:40 pm

Hi Roger! Well We’re done! (I posted questions under the Ditra subject earlier this month). I am so happy with the outcome. One thing…how screwed am I by having the floor heat on for one day? The floorheating went into thinset about 10 days ago, Ditra a day later, the tile was installed this past Saturday. We were so excited to turn on the heat to see if it worked that we left it on all day before realizing I should have waited! (you say 3-6 days, Suntouch claimes 30 days!) (I am going to send you some pics of the results of my Delft Blue Bathroom project) Thanks again for your help!

Reply

Roger January 31, 2012 at 9:37 pm

Hey Pernille,

It should be okay. The reason for waiting is to allow the thinset to cure well before exerting heat which may prematurely dissipate the moisture in the mix (which concrete-based products need to cure). 10 days should be all right, just leave it off for a while.

Reply

Paulo December 29, 2011 at 10:58 am

This was a great post, but I have a question. I plan on tiling over a basement  slab (50+yrs old hard than snot) with floor heating as well. Would you be concerned with going on directly with the heating wires and tile?
Thanks

Reply

Roger December 29, 2011 at 5:20 pm

Hey Paulo,

Nope, no problems with that at all if that’s the way you wanna do it.

Reply

NewRoticSlob December 10, 2011 at 10:55 pm

I’m curious what your method is, since you’re an elf, to ward off the gremlins, sprites, trolls and other nasty faerie creatures that can mess up your efforts to complete a job in an efficient manner?
This info has been a great find! Whew! We’re just starting a bathroom remodel. We have a really long bathroom. It’s 13×6. It’s a tunnel. We’re taking 8′ and turning it into the bathroom. The rest will be the laundry room with front-loading washer and dryer. I’m running one strip of SunTouch down the walk area in the bathroom area. We’re hoping to intermix 12″ and 6″ ceramic tiles to create a pattern. Do you think this setup is viable if I am running one strip of heating element? I am wondering if the intermixing of sizes could cause any cracking or instability in the overall system? Would it be best if I put Durarock or Hardibacker underneath to ensure stability or stick with one size tile?
Also, with the front-loader, when it is on spin cycle, it can really shake. Where it is located now (center of a single-story house, over the center beam), I have placed cross-members in-between the pre-fab floor joists. It has helped. However, I am moving them to the other side of the beam. About 6′, as a crow flies. (I hate when crows are buzzing around the house, too!) Do think that is sufficient to protect the tiles from the vibrations? Or is there more I should do? If so, what?
Thanks for any feedback! I enjoy your writing style. If I wanted to have the dry facts of flooring and it’s inherent issues, I’d buy a book. :) (For example: What is that a picture of!?! Who wrote these stupid instructions? An illiterate moron from Timbuktu!?! I don’t have that tool! Is that my grandpa in the picture!?! or my all-time favorite, AAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!)

Reply

Roger December 11, 2011 at 12:38 am

Hey NewRotic (If that is your real name :suspect: )

Your setup sounds fine. I would place the heating element and install ditra over it, then tile. The size of the tile makes no difference whatsoever regarding how stable your floor it. The thing you need to be concerned with is getting 100% coverage and plenty of thinset beneath your tile. As long as your structure will support that machine while it’s dancing around, the tile will also. If you want to absolutely ensure you won’t have any issues with it, wait 28 days before using the machine on the tile. This allows the thinset to get a full cure, after that it won’t go anywhere, even if you try to make it.

I always give my posts that test. If someone would look at it and ask “who wrote this crap” I’ll usually edit it a bit. :D If I go AAAHHHHH!!!!!! I’ll usually just delete it.

Reply

NewRoticSlob December 11, 2011 at 4:02 pm

It’s my codename. My wife just calls me Slob or some name to that effect. However, if I told you my real name, someone would have to die, most likely me. And we don’t want that, it’s the Christmas season. :guedo:
Also, curious about vinyl flooring. It’s the existing flooring. We have bamboo flooring that meets the threshold of the room. The bamboo flooring is 5/8″ thick. (Bear with me as I know the probable answer, but would like to hear it from an “expert”.) Should I rip it up to eliminate/lessen the height difference between the 2 flooring materials? 
Again, thanks! It’s a good thing that it’s not imperative to move the washer and dryer, quickly. ;) I can share my experience with you if you want. I can take pictures and post them as I go. You can point out all the “oops’s” I make and share them on your flawed page. :bonk: I’m figuring it’ll take about a month to do it all. I’m going Lone Ranger. So, yippee-kai-yay!
Let me know if you’re interested. If not, no biggie.

Reply

Roger December 11, 2011 at 10:52 pm

Yes, you should remove that flooring. Now that someone else has told you what you already knew you can force yourself to do it and blame it on me. :D

I would love photos of your project as you go along. I’m setting up a page and methods for reader’s photos and projects but I’m doing it in my spare time so it isn’t moving quickly. You can email them to me at Roger@FloorElf.com and I’ll stick ‘em in my file.

Reply

NewRoticSlob December 12, 2011 at 6:19 am

YAY!! Deconstruction! I’ve already started some deconstruction. Trim and cabinets are out.
I should tell you that the project began as, “Let’s replace the vanity and mirror.” I pulled the vanity and wasn’t paying attention to the valve placement and how that would affect the new cabinet. It’s funny how drawers and valves won’t exist in the same area. Perhaps if I watch enough Star Trek episodes, I could find a solution. Instead of that, “Let’s remodel!”
I’ll send you the pics I take as soon as I take them. :) (Now, how the hell does the camera work and where the hell is it!?) 

Reply

Lee December 7, 2011 at 9:59 pm

Hi Roger,
Thanks for your tips. You provide one of the best tiling resources out there! After reading this article, I have a new question for you. I have installed 20″ porcelain tiles in my bathroom over Ditra using unmodified thinset, per Schluter’s instructions. Under the Ditra (installed with modified thinset under) I installed Thermasoft in-floor heating in a SLC bed. Since you noted above that you should wait 3-6 days to use the infloor heating, now I am wondering about the drying time for the thinset and how long I should wait until I grout the installation. Do I need to wait longer than the usual 24-48 hours to ensure the thinset bed has fully cured? Thanks in advance for your advice again!

Reply

Roger December 7, 2011 at 10:18 pm

Hey Lee,

Nope, no reason to wait. Unmodified thinset does not require air to cure, it’s all done though hydration. It will actually cure underwater – and it will be stronger. (Really) You can grout it 24 hours after you set your tile.

Reply

Lee November 26, 2011 at 7:40 pm

Hi Roger,
I’ve really enjoyed referring to your site for information for some of my tiling projects, and I like your writing style.
I have an enquiry/request for confirmation regarding a similar bathroom floor project like this one you have described:
One difference is that I purchased the Thermasoft in floor heating product many months ago when I was early into my 100 yr. old house reno. So, I plan on going forward with this brand. I am planning to install it on my new double layer of 3/4″ plywood subfloor (which is actually installed over the old 3/4″ plank flooring). So, the base I will be working with is solid and new and relatively flat. I was wondering if there is any significant heat loss in the in floor heating system when installed over plywood vs. a layer of hardibacker, if it is imbedded in SLC or a bed of thinset? I would think being in either of these mortar based materials would maintain the effectiveness of the infloor heating system. My plan is to either use thinset or SLC (probably the easiest choice) and spread same out to keep the entire bathroom floor as flat as possible before installing Ditra on top of the heating cables (imbedded in the SLC or thinset). My final floorcovering is 20″ porcelain tile. So with Schluter’s recommendations, I would be installing the Ditra over the substrate/ heating unit with modified thinset and the finished tile surface on top of the Ditra with unmodified Mapei Kerabond. Sound ok to you?

Reply

Roger November 26, 2011 at 8:14 pm

Hey Lee,

Your plan sounds just fine. The SLC will be the easier choice installation-wise. The heating elements will lose no more heat when placed over wood as opposed to backerboard. They will be the same.

Reply

Deb November 22, 2011 at 5:34 am

Okay, so I’ve only just discovered your wonderful instructions AFTER I have installed a heating cable underneath a layer of Ditra. I was not patient, and walked and kneeled on the Ditra right after I layed it, so I could measure and cut tiles. :oops: (In my defence, the Ditra instructions said that you didn’t have to wait for the stuff to dry before tiling – I guess I should take manufacturer’s instructions with a grain of salt!). Now I am left with dents and uneven sections on the floor and am worried that when I lay the tiles they will not be level, and the tiles will crack. :cry:

Is it possible to even out the dents with a thick layer of mortar in between the Ditra and the tile? It is a small bathroom floor (30 square feet), and I only have the cable in 10 square feet of it (in front of tub and sink), so it is a small area that is uneven with the rest of the floor. I’m really hoping that will work! Unfortunately, it is the area that everybody will be walking on, so it is important that it is level.

Reply

Roger November 23, 2011 at 11:10 am

Hey Deb,

Did the instructions state that specifically when installing heating cables? It is correct that when using ditra over a flat substrate (no cables) that it can be tiled immediately. If they stated that with regards to heating elements as well it is incorrect as far as walking on it (and I’ll make a phone call to remedy that). It is true that it can be tiled over immediately – just not walked on. :D That’s difficult to do, though.

Yes, you can flatten it out with a layer of mortar. Skim over it to get it flat, let that cure, then install your tile. It’ll be fine.

Reply

Deb November 26, 2011 at 6:08 am

Thanks Roger – I have applied a thick layer of mortar, and then my tiles – they seem pretty solid, so hopefully no cracking. I sure used enough mortar (almost all of the 50lb bag on just 30 sqft), so I hope I never have to take off those tiles!

The Ditra instructions weren’t wrong, but I got conflicting instructions from the person at Home Depot, so I made a mistake. What I should have done was install the heating cables, then apply a layer of self-levelling modified thinset to even out the floor and let it dry completely, and THEN use a thin layer of unmodified thinset to apply the Ditra (which is what the Ditra instructions say). But that was so many layers of mortar, so much time waiting for it to dry, so much patience required…sigh. OR, of course, I could have followed your fantastic instructions above and not walked/kneeled on the Ditra before the mortar dried – had I found your site before I did it! Lesson learned, for when we renovate the other bathroom next year. :)

Now I’m going to thoroughly study your tips on making a shower niche and installing tiles in a tub surround, before I actually do the work – thank you so much for taking the time to help all us DIY’ers! If you are ever visiting Ottawa, Canada, I’ll pay you to do some work on our house :) .

Reply

Roger November 26, 2011 at 4:11 pm

Hey Deb,

Mistakes aren’t really negative things if you learn from them – right? :D If you have any questions don’t hesitate to ask.

Reply

Greg November 21, 2011 at 9:43 pm

Great site; great tips! One thing I was not clear on was why HardiBacker was used below Ditra. Assuming a good subfloor exists, why would it be necessary to use both? You’ve stated HardiBacker is not effective to strengthen floors, so what is the benefit of using it, if you’re intending to use Ditra? it appears to be needlessly making floor thicker.

Reply

Roger November 23, 2011 at 11:01 am

There is no real advantage to using hardi beneath ditra. Provided you have the proper 1 1/4″ subfloor you do not need hardi in the equation at all. The only time I do that is when I have in-floor heating beneath the ditra, I prefer to have the heating element over cement backerboard.

Reply

Bill - St. Louis, MO November 12, 2011 at 7:55 pm

Nov 12, 2011
Roger,
Great site! I already have Ditra bonded to 3/4″ plywood subfloor with Versabond in a 5 x 10’ bathroom. Will it really make a huge difference if I put the Suntouch heating element OVER the Ditra since it is already there? And, no I didn’t plan on in floor heating until AFTER the Ditra. (Rrrr).
I am planning to use Flexbond to bond the heating element to the Ditra and possibly a layer over the entire Ditra area to keep the floor even from having a slight bump were the heating mat will be. It’s a 30″ x 6′ mat. I will then let the Flexbond dry and then use unmodified thinset mortar to install the 12 x 12 porcelain tiles. I know it would be preferred under but I can’t see it making that big of a difference on a small area. Your .02 cents would be welcome. ~ Bill – St. Louis, Missouri USA

Reply

Roger November 13, 2011 at 10:03 pm

Hi Bill,

You will lose some of the lateral dissipation properties of the ditra since the tile is not directly on the membrane, but over a small floor it’s not really enough to make too much of a difference. You should be just fine. And I would use the modified to install the porcelain.

Reply

mountain eagle April 29, 2011 at 9:48 am

When heating a Kerdi shower what is your preferred order of build and method of getting through/over/under the curb transition?

Reply

Roger April 29, 2011 at 7:51 pm

Hey Mountain,

I’ll usually run the wire between the first and second 2×4 I use for the curb. I’ll install the first 2×4 then use a chisel to cut notches for the wire up and over the top of the board so it lies flush with the top of the 2×4. When I pour my pans I’ll let it cure for a day then go in and carve grooves into the top of it in a spiral the depth of the wire. Then I’ll run the wire over that first 2×4, run it into the grooves and skim coat the wire with thinset to hold it in place. Once it cures you can install your second (and third if needed) 2×4, backer and install the kerdi as normal.

Or the short answer – use a chisel. :D

Reply

Porky February 28, 2011 at 6:47 am

Hi Roger:
I was planning on putting a Suntouch electric mat on my basement slab. The slab is in good condition. I have some Mapei Aquadefense ( waterproofing & crack isolation membrane) left over, that I was going to apply to the floor. I was wondering if it was ok to do that or if the Mapei would get gooy or something with the heat setting on top of it. The Mapei company didn’t think there would be a problem, but I wanted to double check with you or somone else that may have done it. Thanks

Reply

Roger February 28, 2011 at 7:14 pm

Hey Porky,

I’ve never done it but I don’t see a problem with it. Once cured it would take a very high heat to cause the Mapei to ‘melt’, so to speak. It should be just fine.

Reply

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