One of the most asked questions by do-it-yourselfer’s is whether they should use caulk or grout in the corners. Industry standards state that a flexible material be used at all changes of plane. But! – if you ask a hundred different professionals you will more than likely receive fifty of each answer. While there are pros and cons of each, I am in the camp that uses caulk. That being the case, I will discuss using grout first. I’m backwards like that.
Using Grout at Changes of Plane
While the phrase “changes of plane” may sound a bit uppity or technical – it’s not. It simply describes the corner or edge of any surface that changes direction such as a corner, a wall to a floor, or a wall to the tub edge. Many professionals simply grout that corner as they do any other space between the tiles. There are a couple of things that must be taken into consideration before choosing this method.
- Your walls and the framing of your shower must be absolutely rock solid. I do mean absolutely. Grout is a cement-based product and as such is not meant to flex. If your wall moves your grout will eventually crack – it’s that simple.
- The space between the tiles at the change of plane must be large enough (for sanded grout) or small enough (for non-sanded grout) to be able to support the grout. That simply means that if you are using sanded grout you cannot butt the tiles against each other at the corner and expect to be able to force grout into it. It will not stay if the grout has no grout line to hold onto – if it is simply attempting to grab onto the face of the tiles at a 90 degree angle. There must be a grout line at the changes of plane.
- You must decide you are going to use grout at the changes of plane before you install the tile. You can then make sure to leave a line for the grout as well as adding additional support for any spots that may move even the tiniest bit (which it should not do anyway).
If you have taken the above points into consideration and still decide to use grout in the corners – go ahead. The big advantages of using grout here is that it will match all the grout lines and it will never have to be replaced. So although extra care must be taken to properly use grout at your plane changes, the advantages for some people are worth the extra time.
Using Caulk at Changes of Plane
There are several advantages to using caulk in corners and any other area where there may be a plane change or where tile meets another material such as your bathtub or sink.
- Unlike grout you are able to use caulk in a corner where tiles are butted against each other. It will stick to the face of the tile rather than needing a space between the tiles to grab.
- Caulk is flexible. If there is any movement the caulk is flexible enough to move with it and remain in place. It will not crack out or fall off.
- Caulk is waterproof – grout is not. Water will collect in corners such as where your tile meets the tub more than it will on the face of the tile.
- If your caulk does crack out or need to be replaced it is easily done.
The only two disadvantages to using caulk instead of grout are that you need to periodically remove and replace the caulk and, depending on your choice of grout, you may not be able to find a caulk that matches exactly. The first reason I consider to simply be regular maintenance and the latter is less of a problem since most major grout manufacturers sell matching caulk.
When to Use Grout
The only time I will use grout for a plane change is when I am using epoxy grout. Epoxy grout is bulletproof! OK, maybe it’s not bulletproof but you can hit it with a hammer a couple of times before it chips. (Don’t do that.) If you are using epoxy go ahead and grout the corners and changes of plane as well. Although it is not flexible it will grab the tile well enough to prevent it from splitting or cracking out. Precautions must still be taken but the Epoxy is strong enough to withstand normal structural movement.
How to Decide
Given the above parameters I believe caulk to always be the best choice. What you must understand about tile installation is no matter where you are installing the tile, it is always a structure that moves, no matter how minutely. Concrete moves, (the ground beneath it) that’s why it has expansion joints – to control where the movement goes. Most shower installations are over a wood structure of some sort. Whether you have drywall, backerboard, or a membrane, if you go far enough behind the tile, you’ll find wood. Wood moves, it’s just a fact of life. Humidity, weather, even the structure’s foundation all affect how much it moves. By taking proper precautions you can minimize the movement, but it’s still gonna move. Taking structural movement into consideration caulk is, for me, the logical choice.
Hi Roger,
Thanks so much for all this great information. I have a 5 year old home and the grout in my tiled shower (walls and floor) is in bad condition. With the info here, I’ve decided to replace grout with caulk in the corners and change of planes, instead of regrouting the entire shower. My problem is the grout line varies anywhere from 1/8″ to 1/2″. That’s alot of grout removal and caulk to fill. Was going to use an oscillating tool to remove the grout, clean up my dust with denatured alcohol and use a *silicone* based sanded caulk (if that exists) to fill the lines. My hesitation is that in order to remove the cracked grout I may have to go 1/2″ wide in many parts of the corners. With an inconsistent line of caulk, I can’t imagine this is going to look very good. I assume that’s why the shower was originally entirely grouted. I’m a complete newbie here. Am I misguided here?
Hi Leyda,
Nope, you’re correct. That’s gonna look like hell.
You may be able to scrape out a consistent line leaving a portion of the grout in the wider areas. It should stay there. Just scrape out a consistent 1/8″ line and you’ll at least have a consistent caulk line. I would use 100% silicone, it will retain it’s elasticity for a longer time than any acrylic-based caulk. Those sanded caulks are normally hit or miss with how long they’ll last before they shrink away from the tile.
I just looked at your photo (I’m tired, gimme a break
). I would just scrape all that out and fill it with silicone. I thought you were describing the area along the corner of a wall from the ceiling to the floor. Those areas will not even be very noticeable (after a week or so – stop staring at it).
Thanks so much, Roger!
Hi Roger! Another question. So I’m in the middle of grout removal and in all of the “stained” places on the shower floor corners, I have hit this grey muddy stuff and below that, water! I let my shower dry for 5 days to ensure it was a really dry shower. So what I’ve hit is the water that has been seeping through the cracks every day and just pools under my shower. I keep shop-vaccing up water, grout and this muddy grey stuff. Is this grout that never cured, thinset, or caulk that I never new existed (I doubt the latter)? So now I don’t know if once I remove all the stuff that needs removing if its OK to caulk over, knowing its wet under there. I don’t see it ever drying under there. I’m a little worried–any advice!
Here’s what the stuff looks like if it helps: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwLKIbAfgPc
Hi Leyda,
In all likelihood you don’t have a pre-slope beneath your shower floor. The water is due to hydrostatic pressure, the water will never fully drain. The gray color is likely just from the thinset color or grout/caulk leaching into it. It’s just water, the gray has nothing to do with it. You can caulk over it if you want. In a perfect world your shower floor would be torn out and replaced with a properly built mud bed with a preslope. But I know the world isn’t perfect.
You have beautiful nails.
Thank you and thank you
I can live in an imperfect world. I’ll proceed now that I know my shower isn’t going to implode. Gracias again!!!
Hi Roger,
When working with an outside 45 degree corner on a shower wall using large tile (16″ or 18″ square tiles), would you recommend grouting or caulking the joint with sanded/color matched silicone caulk? This is a bit of an unusual “change of plane” that I hadn’t seen a recommendation for yet.
Thanks in advance!
Hey Brian,
I normally grout those. You can, however, do either.
Thanks Roger. Go Broncos!
Hi Roger,
My husband and I just bought a house that was remodeled, after about 1-2 months the grout in the corner of the shower and along the tub has cracked. What would be the best way to repair this? Thanks!
HI Jen,
Scrape the grout out of those areas and replace it with silicone. All changes of plane (corners, along the tub, etc.) should be siliconed. They will move in different directions, silicone can compensate for that, grout can not.
Hi Roger,
I used Laticrete sanded acrylic caulk at the tub/tile transition gap. The spaces were about 1/4″ all around. About a month after the install, the customer complains it is cracking out so I checked it out and find the caulk to be soft (almost mushy) and easily pulled away from tile and tub. What do you think happened? When I installed it I used a wet finger to smooth it. Is that a no-no? Some other possibilities I come up with are 1. 1/4″ gap too large, 2. Not fully cured before exposed to water. Wat ya tink
Should I replace the acrylic with silicone?
Thanks,
Jim
Hey Jim,
I’m always one to recommend silicone instead of acrylic. 1/4″ is very large, it should be 1/8″ or less. It could also have been exposed to water too soon. It may also be some sort of contaminate on the tub when you installed it – is it a new tub? They sometimes coat them with some sort of ‘lubricant’ (for lack of a better term) to ensure stability through whatever sudden weather and temperature changes it may go through from the factory to wherever it ends up. You should clean all along your space with denatured alcohol before silicone or caulk is installed. Did you fill the tub or place weight into it as you installed it until it cured? This creates a resting state at the most extreme stress on the tub rather than subjecting the bead to stress every time the tub is filled.
roger,
I’m tiling a shower over kerdi, caulking the changes of plane with silicone and using spectalock grout. My question is would i need to leave weep holes, due to the silicone sealing my changes of plane, and if so, one on every wall ? Thanks so much.
Lawayne
ps. i forgot my floor is tile also…thanks again
Lawayne
Oh. Then no.
Hey Lawayne,
If you are tiling over a tub then yes, you need weep holes in your silicone bead. One on each end wall should be fine. If you are tiling an entire shower including the floor then no – you don’t need them. The water drainage from the wall is built into the system down to the drain beneath the tile.
Hi Roger,
Hello from Canada! We are so excited because after reading several posts on your site it looks like we got all the steps right for our tub and tiled shower walls with a window in it project. I am so proud of us! Now onto the floor and my question. Here is our situation: plywood subfloor, fiberboard with thinset below it and backer board scews NOT screwed into the joists. Ok, got that. Now, do we need to waterproof the bathroom floor? If so, can we red guard it? That is my question.
But, since we’re here I will tell you that after we sort out the “to waterproof or not to waterproof ” question, then we will be installing a heated floor mat ( so happy because it is cold in this part of Canada!) and then we’ll be tiling. We’ve read your tips and tricks and appreciate so much all the info, we’re just stumped on whether we need to waterproof the bathroom floor or whether that is home reno overkill. Thank you so much for your help. Molly
Hi Molly,
You can if you want to, but there’s no real reason to unless you plan on turning it into a swimming pool.
You can just begin installing your heating right over the fiberboard.
Hi Roger
It’a time to grout/caulk the tub/shower I tiled for my daughter. Many thanks to you for all of the courteous, professional advice. I don’t know how you find time to do your tile business along with this forum. Again, Thank You. I’m going to caulk changes of plane and use a sanded grout on the rest. Here’s
my question: Which to do first, grout or caulk. Also will they have a seamless blend where they meet? I’m using MAPEI’s Keracolor S. I can’t find the exact color match in MAPEI’s flexible sanded product, but can probably find one very close to it. I didn’t know how pass’e 1/4″ grout lines were until after I had set some of the tiles…Oh well.. After the grouting is complete , I’ll start on the bath floor. The sub flooring is 3/4″ plywood over 10″ or 12″ joists. Seems to be very rigid. I’m going to bed 1/4″ Hardiebacker in MAPEI’s Ultraflex ll using a sq. notched 1/4″x 1/4″ trowel leaving 1/8″ gap to tape with alkaline resistant tape and thinset fill. Silicone perimeter… Screws every 8″…
Another question: What do I do for a transition between the new bath floor, now nearly 3/4″ higher than the carpeted hallway floor, (which was about even with the old bath floor?) ALSO – THANK YOU for your service to our country!! THANK YOU for what you do for the wounded warriors !!
Hey Stephen,
I normally grout first then caulk. It usually leaves a better, cleaner transition. That said – you can do it either way. If you caulk first you must let the caulk cure before grouting. If you grout first you can caulk right away.
No need to silicone the perimeter of your floor, you can simply leave it open. I use Schluter transition strips for most of my transitions. They make a LOT of different ones – including sloped pieces which can make that a smooth transition.
Thanks for the thanks!
lowes sells a sanded acrylic caulk to match the grout. I plan on doing what you say for the corners…1/8″ on one wall then 1/16 on other wall in corner..I think I got that right…you will correct me if I messed up! PLEASE!….will the acrylic caulk work or does it need to be 100% silicone? The above post you said to run a 1/8″ bead of caulk then grout..can I just use the 100% silicone…small bead..then use regular grout over that?…
Chris
after reading about epoxy grout..I think its the best for the entire shower..including the corners…you agree? structure is solid as is the cbu etc..am I wrong using epoxy grout? besides being a pain in the ass to use!?
Hi Chris,
I usually do not recommend anyone use epoxy in the corners of their shower. I do it in some showers, but I know every intricate detail of how my showers are built and I warranty them. Your shower? I have no idea. You can, if it’s built correctly. It may or may not crack. I cannot guarantee that it won’t. In the post above I’ve also outlined several things that absolutely must be done correctly to make this a viable option. If your shower is built correctly, according to the above guidelines, then yes, you can use it and yes, the only real problem is that it is a pain in the ass.
It does not need to be 100% silicone – that’s simply a better option. Acrylic loses it’s elasticity much, much more quickly than silicone, so it won’t last as long.
I have absolutely no idea where or why or when I may have suggested to you that you use two different sizes of gaps in the corners. I also have no idea where or why I may have suggested grouting over caulk (I know for a fact I have NEVER suggested that one – it won’t work). I’m afraid I have no answers for either of those two queries.
Here’s the problem: When you posted these two questions you posted them as new questions rather than replies to your previous questions – I have absolutely no frame of reference for your questions, I don’t know what you’ve already asked nor what advice I’ve given you. I do remember answering questions for you before, I remember your email address because I’ve already moved one of your questions in order to keep the reference intact. If you read the notice right above where you post a question – the one that says ‘Please read this first!’ I request that you ask any additional questions as a reply to my answer. I request that in order to keep the reference intact.
If you have any more questions can you please post them as a reply to this one so that I can keep track of your project and what we’ve discussed? I have answered (literally) over 10,000 questions on this site – I cannot memorize everyone’s individual projects and can’t really take the time to go searching should I need reference to what you’re asking. Please help me help you! Thanks.
Hi Roger……….. I’m really confused now. I was reading the thread about the caulk/grout issue. I’m copying one of your previous responses where you told JAMIE its ok to caulk and then grout…
“Roger
Hi Jaimie,
You can run a bead of caulk down the corner and let it cure before you grout. Don’t fill the joint there, but just a 1/8″ bead or so. Once it cures fill the rest of the grout line with grout. When cured you’ll have a solid grout line filling the space and you’ll still have the caulk there to compensate for movement in the changes of plane.
Steve asked below if its ok to grout everything and then caulk…..
You didn’t recommend that.
But, i just want to be sure its ok to silicone caulk a small bead in the corners and then, once cured, grout on top of that. This could be “the ticket” if there is a concern about matching color, appearance etc. thanks!
Hi Sherry,
No, it isn’t okay to grout on top of silicone. The grout will not stick to the silicone. You are referencing three completely different types of installations – you need to read the question they asked as well as my answer.
Jaime has a 3/8″ grout line in the corner – I advised her to run a 1/8″ bead of caulk down the corner, let it cure, then grout. This would leave a 1/4″ grout line (with grout) and a 1/8″ bead of caulk next to it (NOT over it) as a solution to the huge gap which was left there. If you have a 3/8″ grout line in the corner of your shower and need to remedy that – this is how you can do that.
Steve was asking about installing epoxy grout in the corners – then installing silicone over the epoxy. I do not recommend that. If you are using epoxy grout in your shower – do not do that.
If what you are concerned with is just a color match of the silicone to your grout most manufacturers make a matching silicone or caulk for each grout color. If they don’t you can give me the brand and color and I can cross-reference it for you and let you know which brands and colors of silicone will match your grout color. Regardless of color, though, your grout is not going to stick to your silicone.
Can i grout everything, including corners and where the tile meets the tub, then caulk it?
Hi Steve,
You can, but the grout will still crack behind the caulking and break the seal of the caulk bead. So it doesn’t solve any problems and may actually create more.
Hello,
After reading this thread about calking vs. grout in the corners I’m concerned about my existing project. I’m doing a tile job from the tub up to the ceiling. I installed the side wall tiles with a 3/8 grout line where the side walls meet the back wall. I was planning on grouting that vertical line until I read this article.
I’m not sure what to do now? I purchased a sanded silicone caulking that matches the grout. Can you please advise on what I should do as I have not started grouting any of the project yet.
Hi Jaimie,
You can run a bead of caulk down the corner and let it cure before you grout. Don’t fill the joint there, but just a 1/8″ bead or so. Once it cures fill the rest of the grout line with grout. When cured you’ll have a solid grout line filling the space and you’ll still have the caulk there to compensate for movement in the changes of plane.
I read your very insightful article on grout vs caulk. I’ve had a problem with my shower. The contractor redid the shower and grouted the corners over the next year the bathroom roof fell down the tenant’s bathroom downstairs. We checked the cause and found that the grout had cracked and water was seeping through so being a novice DIYer I applied silicone and presto the leaking stopped. Being a novice I didn’t properly clean the tiles from built up soap scum and dirt and sure enough the silicone came off. Now after removing all the silicone (what a pain!) some grout in the corners came off and I thus decided to regrout. Now after this whole intro I have two questions how much grout do I remove before applying new grout? 2) After reading your article I was wondering can I get the best of both worlds? Meaning can I grout then apply silicone on top of the grout? Thanks in advance and I apologize for the lengthy post.
Hi Rapelo,
You do not want any grout at all in the corners. It is not waterproof! All it’s gonna do is fill space and eventually crack. The pressure and movement between the planes continued to compromise the grout behind the silicone so it was likely not just soap scum that busted that seal.
Also – if placing silicone in your corner stopped a leak then the shower is not properly built. A properly constructed shower is completely waterproof before any tile is installed into it. If silicone stopped or slowed a leak then you have no waterproofing behind your tile or what is back there is compromised and useless. The shower should be replaced with a properly waterproof substrate.
If you are only going to address the corners then you should remove all the grout and use 100% silicone only for any and all changes of plane.
Roger,
You mention using silicone caulk on the CBU at the corners (see I really can read :-) ) I have 2 questions related to this that may have been previously answered but I could not find…
#1. Is it ok to use a good siliconized latex caulk also or is the 100% silicone the only and best way to go.
B. On the change of planes, like at the ceiling, where the CBU will meet XP Drywall I am using how would I finish that corner? It will be a painted ceiling with tile up to it. My thought was if this is also to be a siliconed corner that the paint would adhere to the siliconized latex if any caulk got out past the tile coverage (I know it shouldnt, but after a few barley pops things tend to get sketchy). Or if this should be a taped inside corner, should it be thinset on the CBU and drywall mud on the drywall side. I will be putting redguard over CBU prior to tile.
Thanks!
Hey Deuce,
1. You want 100% silicone. Over time acrylic-based or latex-based caulks tend to lose elasticity, which means they won’t stretch as much. This may cause cracking or create voids where water can pool in your wall (very small pools, but pools nonetheless). While it won’t create problems with waterproofing (unless you’re using a topical liquid) (which I just noticed you are – so it can actually compromise your waterproofing as well) it can lead to mold or similar issues. You don’t want non-moving water anywhere in your shower for any period of time.
B. Paint the ceiling first – then paint doesn’t need to stick to anything but the ceiling.
Thank You Sir, You are the Tile God!
As Always, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer mine and others questions!
Roger,
I have finally started to tile the tub walls. Them little bastard tiles like to move down the wall, when im not looking and smash the grout joints tight together, hence the nails holding them up in pic that I cant figure how to attatch. Sadly this will put tiny holes in my 2 layers of redguard, but I only have had to use a dozen nails or so. The spacers just wouldnt cut it, it would just compress the lower joints. I thought I could get away without so many spacers due to the tile being in sheets. 2 3/4 x 2 3/4 tile 12 x 12 sheets. I put spacers at each tile sheet seperation, but quickly abandoned this when the tile in the sheets was moving togather also and went to the nails (which I just tapped into not thru the hardibacker just to support the tile where needed), and duct tape also to hold to tile above or below for support till mortar dries….. Anyway after all that, I have a question related to change of plane again..sort of.. I took a picture to show my question, but still cant figure out how to attatch it.. I have a window in tub area that I have the bull nose not on the wall surface but on the window jamb surface with the rounded edge overhanging the tile on the walls on all 4 sides, this puts my grout joint on the wall with the rest so FINALLY I am getting to my question, I hope you have not dozed off reading all this, do I grout this or caulk this joint? The joint will be on the wall with the rest of the grout joints, but you know that already if I hopefully described this good enough.
Thank You!!
Hey Deuce,
Grout the outside corner. If you aren’t using non-sag thinset then it’s normally easier to begin at the ceiling, nail those sheets up, then tape the sheets below it to each sheet above. You can go here and upload photos. Just click on browse then upload. That’s it.
Awesome idea about starting at the top! I wish I would have asked yesterday before I started! I ran out of cuss words in the first few hours and had to reuse them again :-) I have about a third of the tub left and will start at the top this time. I uploaded a pic in regards to the caulk or grout area for the bullnose, but you already answered it, you can see if the pic matches what I tried to describe. I will upload more pics of the project from start to finish when I am done. Thanks Again!
All ‘ya gotta do is ask.
Yup, the window was described correctly – grout that joint. You do want to make sure you silicone between the bullnose tile on the sill and the window frame.
Another question I thought of, I hate to keep bugging you… I will be using the 511 impregnator sealer over the tile and grout, do I apply this over the grout color match sanded caulk, or do I seal it and apply the color match caulk after? The starting from the top down worked better for me on the wall tile, I did not run out of cuss words today, so it must have went slightly better :-)
It’s better to seal first then caulk. If you ever run out of cuss words again let me know – I’ve even invented some.
I almost had to take you up in the new cuss words today when doing the floor tile when it came time to cut the tile under the door jamb with a 45 on opposite corner for decorative 4×4’s in a dimond pattern in the 12 x 12 corners. I cut out for door jamb right, i just had tile in wron direction when i did, suddenly my 45 was in the wrong corner….
Anyway, the floor is tiled!! And of course I have another question… where the tile meets the tub, do I grout, use color match sanded caulk, or silicone? Thank You once again for all of your help!!
Silicone is best, sanded caulk will work also. Do not grout it, it’ll crack fairly quickly.
Roger,
I have a question about tiling the corners. I saw a youtube video where the guy spaced both the right and left side tiles away from the corner by the tile thickness plus the grout width. That would leave a large void in the corner. My thought is the set the first side wall closer to the corner and leave a grout space on the second side only. That space can then be caulked and probably look neater.
I’m sure you covered the best method to do this someplace but I haven’t stumbled across it yet.
Thank you for this very informative site and diligent and timely responses to all the questions.
Jim
Hey Jim,
I normally place the first wall to within 1/8″ of the corner then place the tile on the adjoining wall to within about 1/16″ – then silicone that line. While 1/8″ isn’t a very big line, trying to fill it with silicone and get it to look good is usually a chore. It looks better with a smaller space there, it isn’t really expected to be the same size as the grout line – it looks huge if it is.
Roger, I am wanting to use the spectralock grout but i am having trouble finding a matching caulk. I like the hemp or the marble beige grout colors for my tiles. Any suggestions on what brand of caulk would match? And where to find it? I prefer silicon over acrylic.
Hey Scotty,
I know that laticrete makes both acrylic caulk and silicone in the marble beige, and I know they make the hemp in acrylic – I think they also have silicone in the acrylic, but I’m currently on vacation and don’t have my charts in front of me. There are several places online you can order it, just google latasil – there may be something close to you as well.
Roger,
Just a quick question for you. I’m going to be using matching caulk at all the changes of plane in my tiled shower. Should I grout first or should I caulk first?
Dan
Hey Dan,
Doesn’t matter. I like to grout first, that way you know there’s a good seal at the grout/caulk transition.
Roger,
can i put grout over caulk? the guy that put tile down on the stairwell landing used caulk instead of grout. my dog’s toe nails keep putting holes in it. do i need to remove the caulk or can i just put grout over it?
thanks for your help,
chanda
Hi Chanda,
You need to remove the caulk, grout won’t adhere to it. Grout actually bonds to the sides of the tile, not what is beneath it. Get a utility knife and it should cut out fairly easily.
thanks:).
Roger,
I have read a lot of your “How To” manuals and they have helped immensly! I have one issue that my wife and I don’t agree on though. I am redoing a tub surround with tile and I want to caulk the cornerwhere the walls meet. I plan on leaving the same space as the grout lines for the rest of the walls but my wife thinks that I should grout them. My question is..can you embed grout in a freshly laid caulk line to give it the same color and consistency of the grout lines?
Thanks,
Chuck
Hi Chuck,
You can but it ends up with mixed results. If what your wife is concerned with is the color-match you can get either sanded caulk or silicone that matches your grout. Most manufacturers make matching silicone for their grout colors. If they don’t let me know what brand and color of grout you have and I’ll cross-reference it for you and let you know what to get that will match your grout.
Hello, I just had my custom shower built, with tiling along the walls and floor of the shower.
I am unhappy with the variation in the grout lines of my larger tiles but am told it cannot be done any better because of the size and type of tile (ceramic 9×13) I had asked the designer for as tight grout lines as possible for a sleek smooth look. I am disappointed that she picked these tiles which apparently cannot be grouted any tighter.
Is this indeed the case?
Also, they put in the floor tiles 2×2 tiles and grouted all within the same day. I read that the tiles should set before grouting. They look straight enough but the cuts along the wall look sloppy, uneven and as such the grout ranges in thickness where the floor tile meets the wall. They tell me they will be caulking in my shower. You have mentioned caulking versus grout…but not grout and caulking, is it okay to caulk over grouting? They also used darker grout on the floor and as you mentioned to the above reader it looks odd riding unevenly up the white tile and grout that exists on the wall. (grey floor and white walls). So I agree totally with you, but perhaps if they caulk there it will remedy that.
I have one worrisome concern that I would like to know if I need to address with the company. When I opened the shower door to look at the tiling yesterday – over 24 hours. I also noticed that water from the shower head was dripping and had been all night on the newly placed floor and grout. I wiped the shower head and turned the nozzle. I called the project manager he said that it is not a problem that water was dripping on it. It will dry fine. I have to assume it had been dripping since the tile was put down and grouted at least overnight. I am worried. Should I be?
I have lost confidence as after the install whenever I turned water on in the house there was a huge bong bong noise. The company insisted it was “normal” and was likely there before the any plumbing they did. It was only after much nagging and insistence that it was not they sent another plumber out who diagnosed it was a broken balancer in the plumbing they put in. They did change it and the noise is of course gone but again it took quite a bit of effort to convince them that the noise was directly related to the project. So I feel the need to double check everything. Kindly let me know now if I have anything to worry about re tiling. Thank you so much for the time you take to answer all these questions. Anne
I forgot to add the range of variaton is 2/16 to approx 4/16. I have accepted this as perhaps my fault for not asking the right questions…but I had no idea that type of tile affect grout lines till after. Again thank you for your patience with those like me who do not even know what end of the hammer to hold. Am learning though.
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That is quite a large variance. What brand and type of tile was installed?
Hi Anne,
The minimum allowable grout joint is dictated by the variance in the chosen tile. It may indeed be the case that those particular tile cannot have tighter joints. If you do not follow that standard the grout lines may either drift apart or squeeze together extremely noticeably.
Whether or not tile can be grouted the same day is dictated by the thinset used. It can be grouted the same day – that’s completely acceptable provided the correct materials were used. Caulk should NOT go over grout. The purpose of using caulk is to compensate for movement – grout will crack, caulk or silicone will not. If you grout it and install caulk over it – the grout will still crack. Caulk can compensate for some funny looking things, and most installation don’t look anywhere near what they will look like once completed before they are caulked. So that may eliminate some of the visual issues. This is all dependent upon the skill level of your contractor.
If there are no visual problems where the water was dripping it’ll be fine. The only real problem that may cause is the dripping washing grout out of the spot it was dripping. It won’t affect the thinset beneath the tile.
Everything you’ve mentioned seems to be mostly aesthetic issues, which is a direct result of your contractor’s skill level. It comes down to this: Once finished, are you happy with what you see? If not, then you need to address the issues with either the contractor or whomever is in charge of your project. Do not pay anyone until you are happy with the result – it’s your money, eh?
Thank you Roger for your reply. I have been told by my project manager not to go to the internet to learn about the industry (reno/construction) as you are all out of touch with the industry – whatever that means. But as you can see I am a maverick and am doing it inspite of his warning. lol. I have downloaded some pics of my job. I may have repeated some because I was thought I found more clear photos in a seperate file (but they may in fact be repeats). Sorry. I titled the download Anne’s shower tiling. I did throw in a pic of the floor in the corner by the door casement….which I did not like, the first is the complaint the second is the remedy….which I still do not like. They simply saw it as incomplete grouting and now that the grout is in its okay ???…I think the cut around the casement is sloppy.. The other side of the doorway is acceptable. They are wearing me down for sure but the job is a fair bit of coin so it keeps me motivated to press on. I did not go with the cheapest quote at all. I hope the pictures will help determine if I have lost perspective in terms of what I should expect. I know nothing about the” industry standards” they keep referring to in regards to the finished job, I only know what I see and the simple test of comparing the job to other tile I have either lived with in my previous homes or that I see elsewhere. It simply pales in comaprison. Thank you for all our information. My tile for the shower was Supplier -Ceratec , Series – Eliane Color White forma Branco. Ceramic. 9×13. Hope you got my downloads
Anne
I forgot to mention they are using a clear silicone caulking and the PM is insisting that caulking over grout is okay and that they do it on all their jobs and all the bathroom contractors do it in the city. (this is the part where he told me to stop going on the internet – I had told him I had read that it was one or the other). In fact I did not realize they had already clear siliconed the grouted vertical shower corners. To me what you say makes perfect sense, I have paid 2/3 of this project but still have 1/3 to pay….its my only leverage. thanks again.
Hi Anne,
We’re all out of touch with the industry? I do it every day, that’s a pretty sweeping generalization. Tell him maybe he should go to the internet every now and then.
From the photos you uploaded it looks to be highly inconsistent. I cannot, however, determine the consistency of the tile, but I will say it a tile required that amount of variation in adjacent tiles it would have been sent back to the supplier in short order. That is ridiculous in my opinion. As is the grout lines where it is shallow in some spots and overfilled in another spot – in the same grout line. Grout should be highly consistent, that isn’t what you have.
The casing looks like crap, another sign of poor workmanship – nothing else. One particular photo you uploaded has a close-up of a grout line where it looks as if the single grout line, over maybe 7 inches (?) goes from 1/8″ to 3/16″. There is absolutely no excuse for that – consistent tile or not.
Stating that I cannot tell how consistent the tile is, it is blaringly obvious to me that most of the issues you are seeing is likely due simply to poor workmanship. The door jambs should be undercut and the tile slid beneath it. The cuts against the wall are inconstent – that has absolutely nothing to do with the tile. It simply looks like inexperience. That’s probably why he doesn’t want you (learning proper methods) going to the internet for information.
As I always tell people – just because he always does it, people he knows always do it, or all ‘bathroom contractors in the city do it’ does not mean it is correct! The fact that they, or someone they know, always does things a certain way DOES NOT mean it is an industry standard. The industry standards are set forth in the TCNA and ANSI manuals. If what they are doing are industry standards – have him give you the method number. Every standard has a unique number. None of what you’ve described are industry standards.
Hi Roger,
I am planning to use a sanded caulk for the corners and transitions where the tub meets the backerboard.
Is there any issues with using a sanded caulk vs. a non sanded caulk? (it is a matching color to my grout color).
Roger,
Not sure if I gave enough info, but to clarify, I am referring to after the tile is set.
Thanks
Hey Chris,
Sanded caulk doesn’t shrink as much, unsanded caulk is easier to install. I prefer the sanded.
Hey Dawn Hope,
You have it all in the right order. Anytime you do two different shades of grout, especially white with a darker, always do the darker first. The white can be cleaned off the darker but the darker will stain the white.
Hi Roger! First, thanks for sharing your experience and tips in an insightful, meaningful, easy to understand explanation. Second, I’m building my outdoor bbq/kitchen and am working on the v-cap tile for the top. The product I purchased doesn’t come with pre-cut v-cap corners so I am cutting pieces at 45 degree angles. I have a couple of outside and a couple of inside corners. Are there any tricks to getting these pieces lined up to look good. I can’t seem to get them aligned to the point they look proper. Or is this where the years of experience come into play? I was under the impression you don’t grout right on the tip of the corner, is that correct or would you want to put a grout line here? Unfortunately the v-cap was not cast from the same color ceramic the tiles were and the manufacturer colored the v-cap to match so if the v-cap isn’t cut perfectly you see a little whitish ceramic along the edge of the cut. Any tips would be most appreciated. Thanks, again.
Hey Larry,
The details aren’t in getting it lined up. As long as your corner is square the detail is in the cutting. If yo have 90 degree angles and get the miter cut correctly it will lay together perfectly. Set the piece upright as it will sit on the bbq and push it through the blade on the saw. It takes practice. I normally leave about a 1/32″ space between the edges – just a sliver – and get grout in there. If it’s just a plain white ceramic you may want to check dal tile to see if they have one that matches. If you got them from home depot they likely are dal tile – call them and you should be able to get matching corners directly from them for it.
Hi Roger—
We tiled the kitchen floor. Interceramic wood look tile (walnut/dark brown), Laticrete midnight black grout with 1/16″ spacers. Still need to calk the edges.
We bought DAP premium indoor/outdoor sealant in black. It also says Alex Ultra 230. Will this work? If not, will you please recommend a specific calk we should use?
Thanks!
Pauline
p.s. The floors turned out awesome! No lipage issues that I can see! Thank you for all your guidance!
Ooops….caulk….not calk.
Hi Pauline,
The Ultra 230 is good stuff. It’ll work fine.
I’m tiling the walls of an alcove bath and adding a shower. Following the traditional waterproofing method I’m using tarpaper and then fastening the backerboard (in my case 1/2″ Hardie). I think you recommend spacing the hardie backer boards about 1/8 inch apart and filling in the gaps with thinset and tape. Do I still do this on the walls? What do I do in the corner (same thing or since it’s a change in plane, do I just use caulk for the backerboard? Please advise. Thanks in advance.
Sorry..didn’t look hard enough first. Looks like it’s documented here: http://floorelf.com/installing-cement-backerboard-for-tile-in-a-shower
Inside corners can be left without thinset or the inside corners can be filled with silicone.
Oh, yup.
Sorry, my comments in the back are answer in the order in which they’re received. Like the phone company – except funnier. 
Hey Charlie,
Yes, 1/8″ gap and tape and mud (thinset) on the seams. In the corners leave a 1/8″ gap and fill it with silicone to prevent thinset from getting in there as you tile.
Roger-
Thanks for the Red Guard bleed thru answer. As for the question I was asking about tiling around a wall from the tub area to the toilet area and how to cut the tiles around that stub wall — we determined to scrap tiling around that wall. This project is already a year long and still going. New question! In Jane’s pictures it says tub caulked. Are we supposed to caulk all the corners and where the Red Guarded Hardi backer board meet the tub BEFORE we put the tiles up?
Thanks,
Susan
Hey Susan,
Yes, you need to create a complete waterproof plane from the wall which is redgarded to the tub or shower basin. Use silicone for that. Without it any water running down the wall can just run into that gap negating your waterproofing efforts. Make sure your entire substrate is waterproofed without any gaps or spaces all the way down into the tub or shower base.
I always piss in the shower and it stains the grout so I decided to piss on every grout line to make it match but I can’t get enough force in my stream to hit the lines up top. What is a good product for removing piss stains from grout, also will this product remove semen stains?
It doesn’t surprise me that you cannot reach the upper grout lines in your shower with your urine stream. Perhaps you should check into some extendz or other male enhancement techniques, maybe work on your aim a bit. Sinking paper sailboats at 50 paces perhaps? Give that a shot.
Also, any product I recommend for you to remove urine stains from your grout will likely not be suitable for use as a toothpaste. I’m afraid you’re stuck with the semen stains. Perhaps your dentist has something to improve your smile. Sorry.
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