The days of grabbing a three dollar bag of “thinset” and sticking floor tile right to the plywood in a bathroom are long gone (for professionals, anyway). For a proper tile installation you need a proper substrate. One of the most readily available are cement backerboards.  These include products such as Hardiebacker, Durock, Fiberboard, wonderboard and a host of others.

When properly installed on your floor it is an ideal tile substrate for a quality and lasting installation. Notice I said typed “properly installed”? Laying them down on the floor and shooting drywall screws through them does not constitute proper installation.

Choose your weapon. I prefer Hardiebacker or Fiberboard. Whichever you choose make sure you get the proper thickness. With rare exception the 1/2″ variety would be the best choice simply because I like to overbuild stuff. With proper floor framing and deflection ratios, though, you can use 1/4″ to minimize height differences. This is not to say that 1/2″ adds significant sturdiness to your floor – it does not.

Dry fitting Backerboard on floor

Dry fitting Backerboard on floor

You need to realize that cement backerboards, or just about any tile flooring substrate, does not add deflection stability to your floor. That is the up and down movement in your floor when you walk, jump, or use a pogo stick on your floor. The backerboards will not significantly diminish that movement. This needs to be addressed by adjusting your floor joists and framing – not by adding stuff on top of them. If your floor is bouncy without the backerboards it will still be bouncy with them.

Bouncy is not good for tile. (There’s a sentence I never thought I would say type.) I will, however, address deflection ratio in another post.

Start by ‘dry fitting’ all your pieces. This simply means cut and lay your pieces into the room without attaching them. Get all your pieces cut, holes cut out, and doorways undercut to fit and lay everything in there just like it will be when installed. This saves a load of time, mess, and headaches.

Backerboards dry fitted into room

Backerboards dry fitted - notice gaps in seams

The joints in backerboards should be staggered. that just means that none of the seams should line up across the room and no four corners should be placed together. By staggering the seams you add strength to the installation simply by not having a significant weak point in the substrate.

You also want to leave 1/16 to 1/8 inch gap between each sheet – do not butt them together, and around the perimeter. If you butt them together you leave no room for expansion. The backerboard will not expand, but your walls will. If everything is butted tight and your wall expands into the room guess what happens. That’s right, your dog may burst into flames and no one wants that! It will also cause your floor to pop loose and possibly ‘tent’ or peak at the seams.

Beneath the backerboards you need thinset. Just about any thinset will work but you need to have it there. skipping this step virtually eliminates the purpose of preparing your substrate for tile – you may as well go grab that three dollar bag and start setting tile now. You need it – really.

Installing thinset beneath backerboards

Installing thinset beneath backerboards

Now that you have them all laid in there properly pick one side of the room to start on and pull a row out. You should only pull out one row at a time to place thinset beneath. That way you can replace them easier and in the proper position. If you pull out the entire room you may get to the last piece and discover everything has shifted 1/2″ and the last piece needs to be cut again. Not really a big deal but you won’t realize it until the backside of it is covered with thinset and you now need to pull it up, wipe the thinset off the wall from pulling it up, cut it, clean the thinset off your saw, snuff out the flames engulfing your dog (again), and replace it. It’s a bit easier just to pull one row at a time.

You need to trowel thinset onto your floor. I cannot overemphasize this (well, I could but you’d get sick of hearing it). This step is imperative for a proper tile installation. The thinset is not meant to ‘stick down’, adhere, or otherwise attach your backerboard to your subfloor. It is simply put in place to eliminate voids beneath your backerboard. Once laid into the thinset bed the floor becomes a solid, fully supported substrate for your tile – that’s what you want.

If you have an air pocket or some certain spot in your floor that is not level or flat with the surrounding area and you simply screw your backerboard onto it this will create a weak spot in your floor. Constantly stepping on that spot will, over time, loosen the screw and your floor will move.

When your floor moves your grout cracks. When your grout cracks your tile may become loose. When your tile becomes loose your tile may crack. When your tile cracks your dog will burst into flames – again. Put thinset beneath your backerboard. And put your dog out.

Installing thinset beneath backerboards

Installing thinset beneath backerboards

Once you have the area fully covered with thinset you can lay your backerboards into the bed of thinset and screw it down. DO NOT use drywall screws! Let me repeat that – THAT! Drywall screws are not made, nor are they sturdy enough for your flooring. You will either bust the heads of the screws off or be unable to countersink them into the backerboard. Hard to get a tile to lay flat over the head of a screw.

There are screws made specifically for cement backerboards. You should be able to find them at any hardware or big box store. They have grooves on the underside of the head which will dig into the backerboard and create its own ‘hole’ in which to countersink the head as it is screwed in. How cool is that?  If you look closely at the photo you can see the ‘grooves’ beneath the head. They are more expensive than drywall screws – just so you know. But you need to use them.

Backerboard screw packEach manufacturer has their own specific spacing instructions for screwing down the backerboards – follow them – really. Some say every 12″ and some want every 6 – 8 inches. The board you use will determine the spacing. (And its right there on the sticker so don’t tell me you couldn’t find it.)

Start your screws in the center of the board and work out. This eliminates undue stresses on the boards. If you screw all the way around the outside and it is not perfectly flat you are going to have to release that pressure somewhere and it

Backerboard screw

Backerboard screw

won’t happen until you have all that pretty tile on top of it. Working from the center out eliminates that. It would probably never, ever be a problem but if you’re anything like me your installation would be the millionth one for that one in a million occurrence.

Backerboard placed into thinset and screwed down

Backerboard placed into thinset and screwed down

Your floor is probably too thick (should be) for the backer screw to actually penetrate into the floor joist. If not, or just to be safe, do not place screws into the area above the floor joists. The plywood or chipboard which makes up your floor will expand and contract at a different rate and, more than likely, in different directions than your joists. If you screw your backer into the ply and into the joist six inches over it will cause inconsistent movement – no good. Do not screw your backerboard into your joists.

After I have all my floor down I will go back and double the screws around every seam. Just put another screw between every screw along the seams. It helps me sleep better at night.

The last thing you need to do is tape your seams. Get an ‘alkali resistant’ mesh tape – similar to drywall tape – and place it over all your seams in your floor. Then mix up some thinset and trowel it over the tape with the flat side of your trowel. Just like taping and mudding drywall. This will make your floor one large monolithic structure and lock it all together. You want alkali resistant tape so it will not break down due to chemicals present in most thinsets. I do not have photos of this because I do it as I set tile.

That’s it! Congratulations, you now have a perfect floor for your perfect tile installation. When installing floor tile – or any tile for that matter – the most important aspect of the installation is always the preparation. Everything beneath your tile is important, if any one aspect is done incorrectly it may compromise the integrity of your installation. Take your time and do it correctly, you will be much happier for it.

Now go put your dog out.

{ 1721 comments… add one }

Leave a Comment

  • Troy Sullivan

    I have read everything here. Why am I still trying to find a way to not use cement board? I’ll tell ya why. My kitchen has a half inch plywood with 5/8 particle board on top of that. I have removed the particle board and installed 3/4 plywood (glued and screwed) on top of the half inch. If I now install 1/4 cement board and then the tile my floor will be to high for the front door. So what are my options? I have educated myself about Ditra and have also found another product called GreenSkin. Will the GreenSkin suffice? If not I guess I’ll have to find out if my fiberglass front door can be cut to make room for the higher floor…….

    • Roger

      Hi Troy,

      Yes, greenskin is a VERY good product. It will work just fine for your installation.

  • RUSSELL

    got a 1935 house. planning to tile front room. it appears to have the original floor boards . i would say about 1/2 inch. tiler has started by just screwing some cement boards down. the screws have not been fully counter-sunk.i want to think what o should do next. he has not started tiling yet. i would be very grateful if you could tell me what to do.

    • RUSSELL

      the tiler has took up his cement boards and gone .i do have gaps in my floorboARDS. IS IT BEST TO FILL THIS IN FIRST BEFORE I PUT DOWN SOME THINSET.I WAS THINKING OF THIS STUFF CALLED STOPGAP OR THE ACRYLIC WHICH THEY BED DOUBLE GLAZING FRAMES WITH ON THE OUTSIDE. IS IT NECESSARY. I WOULD APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENTS.

      • Roger

        Hi Russell,

        The stopgap will work, as will an additional layer of 1/2″ ply if that is what you require to reach the minimum 1 1/8″ thickness of your subfloor.

    • Roger

      Hi Russell,

      You need to have him pull those up, place thinset beneath them as the article above states, then use the proper screws for the backerboard countersunk into the boards. He’s doing it incorrectly, you need to stop letting him do that. :D

  • Russ Stangl

    Hey Roger: I’m about to install 30″x30″ porcelain tiles in the master bathroom of about 170 square feet. The floor has been stripped to the 5/8″ sub floor. I intend to add 1/2″ fir plywood to arrive at 1 1/8 finished subfloor thickness. Then I will be using Ditra, whether it be 1/8″ or 5/16″, using modified thin set under the Ditra and non-modified thinnest for the tile layer. Does one need to employ an expansion type material around the perimeter of the room. Please comment.

    • Roger

      Hi Russ,

      You need a perimeter joint, but it doesn’t need any type of material in it. It can simply be open space (1/4″ or so) that is covered by the baseboards.

  • Steve

    Should I screw down the backerboard as I go or should I wait until all are laid down over the thinset?

    • Roger

      Hi Steve,

      Either one works fine. I do it as I lay it down.

  • Mary

    Hello Roger,
    Thank you for your information on Tile Flooring!
    Here is my scenario: Laundry room on first level of home. Previously linoleum over press-board & tar-paper under the press-board. This was laid directly on the sub-flooring (6″ wide looks sort of like tongue and groove with lots of groove) with the joists below that. (Clearly you can see that I am a home-owner doing the project and not an amazing tile-guy like you. :wink: ) SOOOO, I have removed the linoleum, press-board, tar-paper and vacuumed every speck of dirt and dust from the sub-floor).
    Here is my multi-level question… Do I merely thinset the sub-flooring and lay the concrete board over that, OR do I put down plyboard then the thinset and concrete board, OR OR do I put down fresh tar-paper then thinset and concrete board, OR OR OR do I do something different?
    If you could you please provide a wee bit of clarification I would be over-joyed.
    Dogs are in the house, but scared to walk on the sub-flooring so I really want to put them back at ease. :cool:

    • Roger

      Hi Mary,

      A 1/2″ layer of plywood over your t&g flooring, then thinset and backerboard.

      • Mary

        Thank you, Roger. We’re on it!

  • Robert B.

    I am planning to tile my kitchen which currently has 1″ x 8″ pine boards on top of the joists(the boards have a 1/4″ – 1/12″ gap between them) ; then tar paper; them 1/2″ pressboard (1959 construction). I was thinking of removing the pressboard and just leaving the 1″ x 8″ boards ; then putting thinset and backer board over that . But what about the gags between the boards ? Could I reinstall tar paper over the boards and then thinset abd backer board ? I am trying to match height of adjacent rooms and not end up a lot higher . I guess question is …. can I apply the thinset over the tar paper ? Or is there something else ?? Thanks

    • Roger

      Hi Robert,

      As long as you screw down your backer correctly then yes, you can put down tar paper and go over it.

  • Cruz

    Hi Roger,
    I am tiling the upstairs bathroom. I removed the linoleum floor. It came right off it was not glued properly. There was a under-lament floor which is 1/4 inch. Do I need to remove this before I lay down my thinset and backer board?

    • Roger

      Hi Cruz,

      Yes, it is likely luan which does not have the strength to support your installation (it will compress).

  • Scott

    Hi Roger,

    Remodeling the bathroom floor. I have 3/4″ plywood down. Will I need 1/2″ more plywood or can I lay the thinset down then the Hardie for tile? :corn:

    • Roger

      Hi Scott,

      Another 1/2″ is *technically* required. 3/4″ is fine most of the time, but without the 1/2″ you may not be one of the ‘most of the time’ floors. And that sucks. :D

  • Moose

    My kitchen has a 7/16 plywood base over 16″ spaced floor joists with 7/16 OSB sub floor on top of the plywood. I’ve been told I can’t apply thinset to the OSB so that I can lay the cement board. You say not to even bother with the cement board without the thinset. What are my options? Can I apply thinset directly to the OSB and then lay the cement board or do I need yet another layer of sub flooring over the OSB? If so, what material should that be? Also, did I understand you correctly that ditra can be used instead of the cement board? Not that that solves my OSB/thinset problem…

    • Roger

      Yes, you can install ditra over the osb with a REALLY good modified thinset like mapei ultraflex 2 or 3 or laticrete 254.

  • Moose

    My kitchen has a 7/16 plywood base with 7/16 OSB on top of that. It doesn’t squeak or bounce. I’ve been told that you cannot put thinset over OSB before installing cement board. You say not to even bother with cement board without the thinset. What are my options here? Can I apply the thinset to the OSB and then lay the cement board or must I add yet another layer to the sub floor?

    • Roger

      Hi Moose,

      I don’t know who told you that, but it’s bullshit. :D Probably someone who believes the thinset must bond the osb to the backer – it does not. Just install thinset with your backer over the osb.

  • Mark

    Thanks Roger for an informative article. I am replacing a vinyl floor with 12″ California Gold slate tile in a foyer and adjacent mud/laundry room. I appreciate the clear and concise directions. You mention that just about any thin set will work under the backer. I seem to have read somewhere that there are thin set products which help to bond concrete backer to plywood. Is that helpful or necessary?

    • Roger

      Hi Mark,

      Not necessary at all. The thinset beneath the backer does not need to bond to anything, it is only there to fully support your backerboard.

  • Jeff Daly

    Hi Roger,

    I have a 60 by 60″ shower that had been installed poorly. The drain clogged once per month and the drywall behind the tile was rotted. Some of the subfloor was rotted as well. I’ve removed all the tile, drywall, and the shower pan right down to the subfloor. I removed the rotten subflooring in a square, then extended it past the drain. I’ll be putting kerdi schluter down for waterproofing and the drain that comes with it goes into a 2″ pipe, not a threaded flange. I also took the opportunity to raise the grade on the pipe slightly.

    Because I can’t quite get the heel of my circular saw close enough to the wall, I can’t quite cut the subfloor evenly. Consequently, there are gaps in the subfloor, though they’re slight. My thought was to put 1/4″ hardie backer over the subfloor so that it would be a solid surface, but some of what you’ve written makes me wonder if the gaps and air pockets will be a problem.

    Additionally, the rotten section of floor extended under an internal, not load bearing wall. I had thought to just cut out the rotten sections and some of the studs, firm it up with fresh studs, and not worry about any holes in the floor since they’ll be inside the walls. Beyond the wall, with the drywall removed, you can see the underside of the bathtub on the other side. All of this is normally hidden.

    So…

    1) Do the gaps the subfloor matter given that there will be a solid “floor” of hardie backer?

    2) Am I safe to ignore the holes in the subfloor as they’ll be hidden by the internal wall?

    • Roger

      Hi Jeff,

      1. Nope, not under a mud deck.
      2. Yes, those won’t be a problem either.

      • Jeff Daly

        Well dang, it’s not going to be a mud deck. I figured to do a kerdi shower pan.

        So in total it’s like this: I have the subfloor, and on top of that 1/4″ hardiebacker, and on the walls 1/2″durock. I’ve made a rectangular bench out of kerdi-board and I’ve cut the 72″x72″ pan to fit my 60″x60″ shower.

        Do the gaps matter now?

        How about the gap I put into one of the pieces of shower pan? Namely by walking on one of the interlocking tab sockets…can I fill with thinset?

        How about the two foot long slit I cut from measuring from the wrong end…thinset again?

        • Roger

          No, the gaps don’t matter now. Yes, anything on the pan can be filled with thinset to repair it before putting your kerdi on it.

  • Emily

    My tile job is turning out to be the mostly cost of all the construction. I just want to make sure they are going to do a good job. The new construction has osb flooring and he plans to put thin set onto the osb before installing the hardibacker boards and then the tile wood looking planks. I am at almost at the construction and have gone way over budget. It would be expensive to cover floors first with plywood subfloor before the hardibacker. He is not planning on doing it. Stressing over his high labor cost as it is. My question is can hardi backer 500 go down on the osb board. I do worry a little as that floor got soaked this winter but it has dried up. Oh, it also got damaged twice where contractors dropped tools from loft area but they patched holes. Your thoughts. Thanks, Emily

    • Roger

      Hi Emily,

      With any backerboard you need a double layer of plywood totaling 1 1/8″ minimum. A single layer of osb may work, but it may not. I can’t guarantee a failure, but I can guarantee if it’s done correctly it won’t fail.

  • Patrick

    I am redoing my half bath and have taken up the old floor down to the original studs. I am looking to build up my floor the appropriate way to lay tile. My plumber has told me about the need for cement backer board so I am good with that, especially after reading your help here. My question is whether I need plywood underneath my cement backer board. Please let me know what you think. Thanks

    • Roger

      Hi Patrick,

      Yes, you absolutely do. A total of 1 1/8″ minimum (one 5/8″ + one 1/2″) double layer of ply. Then you can install the tile substrate. If you’re using backer that would be fine, it is also good for ditra or any number of sheet membranes. If you want to use just one 3/4″ layer you can go over that with ditra rather than backerboard.

  • Josh

    Trying to understand walls. I leave a quarter inch or less gap around the edge, but am having trouble getting a real clean edge on my cuts. Does the tile go right to the edge of the board? If my edge is ratty I don’t want my tile over voids. Especially an issue around the doorway. Should I clean the edge up with thinset while taping the gaps between boards?

    • Josh

      To be clear, I mean my backerboard cuts aren’t great (a game of fractions of an inch with a scorer). I don’t want tile hanging over the ratty board edge but don’t want my tile gapped the better part of an inch from my walls, especially where I can’t hide under trim like around my already in place shower pan, cabinets, and doorways.

      • Roger

        Use the thinset, but a 1/2 gap around the edge is never going to hurt anything. You do not want to completely fill the gap at the edges of the board, you need room around the edges for expansion. A perimeter gap is required.

    • Roger

      Hi Josh,

      Yes, thinset is the easiest way to do that. Some cement boards simply suck when you cut them, impossible to get a clean edge. Yes, the tile should go right to the edge, if not a little over.

  • Thomas Bretschneider

    I’ve been flooring for almost 5 years now. I was not taught the correct way to prep a floor for tile. I wanted to thank you for teaching me the correct way. I’m just glad I wasn’t a dog owner during those times. The poor pooch being set aflame over and over and over and…. You get the gist. So thank you again.

    Thomas Bretschneider

    • Roger

      Glad I could help Thomas! Believe me, I’ve had more than my share of pooches burst into flames. :D

      • greg

        i have been recently getting some BS about not thin setting my backer board i have been installing tile over 25 ys abd have never had any problem my question to you is is the a step you charge for or do i just do it out of the goodness of my heart :D

        • Roger

          Hi Greg,

          I charge for everything, it is included and built into the proposal. It is also compliant with the TCA tile installation standards. Build the price of the thinset and labor into the installation price of the backer.

  • Ray

    Getting ready to do a bathroom tile floor and have a question about the substrate. Sub-floor is 3/4″ plywood over 16″oc floor joists. I was planning to lay down 1/4″ or 1/2″ Hardiebacker board (yes, with thinset under it) using the proper backer board screws as you say to do, and with seams taped just like in the tub/shower enclosure before moving on to laying tile. I will be laying 14″x14″ ceramic tile with unmodified thinset onto my substrate. My question is, I also have most of a roll of Schluter Ditra that I could use. Is there any advantage to using both backer board with Ditra on top of it before laying the tile?… and if you recommend just one, which do you prefer and why?

    • Roger

      Hi Ray,

      I would use the ditra. The backer is a good substrate, but the ditra gives you much more compensation for in-plane movement, as well as vapor dissipation, etc. Neither will add significant structure to the floor, but ditra will give you more advantages.

  • Bill

    Hi Roger,
    I’m on the 2nd floor of a 2 floor condo bldg. A type of concrete sound proofing (looks like concrete) was installed over the plywood sub floor, about 1-1/4″ thick.
    2 layers of sheet vinyl are on the kitchen floor. Sound proofing seems solid. Can I use thinset over the vinyl. I cut thru around the perimeter to help in removing the kick plate molding & vinyl is bonded to the soundproofing.
    Are the #8 or 9 multimaterial screws OK to go thru the sub flooring? I need at least 2-1/2 ” screws and Hardie doesn’t make them.
    Thanks

    • Roger

      Hi Bill,

      What you have is likely gypcrete. While there are thinsets that will bond to the vinyl it would be best to remove the vinyl. You can install directly to the gypcrete.

  • john

    Hello. Soooo I have a 8×10 kitchen. Backer board is down. Screwed with a bazillion backer screws. Though no thin set . The thought of pulling up a bazillion backer screws is mind numbing. The floor is sound and level with very little flex. Thanks to the bazillion screws. Do you feel it’s OK to tile or not. Thanks much for all your help.
    John.

    • Roger

      Hi John,

      I do not. Thinset is required beneath your backerboard. It may be fine, it may not. There is no way for me to really say one way or the other. With thinset I can say it will be fine. Go ahead and tile it, you may not have any problems at all.

  • Marilyn and Paul

    O.K. Got the backboard down, taped and seams and screws mudded. Do we have to wait 24 hours before laying our mosaic floor tile? Or can we start now. That 5 gallon bucket toilet in the basement is getting to be a pain…3rd day now….the dogs are fine…but bored with all of this.

    • Roger

      Hi Marilyn and Paul,

      You can begin tiling as soon as you get the backer installed.

      • Marilyn and Paul

        Thanks for the reply ELF. Unfortunately I just saw it now. Well, we used the bucket for two weeks until yesterday. Yippee! The toilet is set, the floor and wainscot tile are in along with the pedestal sink. Next we plumb for a shower and then tile the surround around the tub. Lots of work but worth it. Looking good.

  • steven

    i want to tile my kitchen floor but it is quite bouncy is there anything i can do so i dont have to rip up my old floor it used to be vinyl laid

    • Roger

      Hi Steven,

      Yes, you can add joists beneath the floor, cut down the span of the unsupported joists, or sister joists. All support comes from the joist system below the substrate. You can add additional plywood, but that isn’t really going to help your deflection level.

  • Bob

    Hi Roger,
    I am tiling my bathroom floor which is 3/4″ tongue and groove. I was going to add 1/2″ of plywood to the subfloor and then follow it up with 1/4 cement board. The owner of my local tile shop suggested that I should just use 1/2 cement board over the 3/4″ subfloor and tile directly to that. Is this a mistake? You mention above that the cement board doesn’t provide deflection stability so I’m confused as to which way to go. He also told me that spruce or birch plywood (most common in western Canada) need to be primed before putting down backerboard. He said only fir can be used with priming.

    • Roger

      Hi Bob,

      Wow, that is a LOT of misinformation. :D 1/2″ board over the 3/4″ WILL NOT be the same, you should have the ply. It doesn’t matter what type of ply, nothing at all bonds to it, the thinset is only there to fully support the backer. Go with the 1/2″ ply, thinset, then 1/4″ ply. The ply does not need to be primed.

      • Bob

        I assume you mean to follow up with 1/4″ cement board. Yes?

        I am also going to build a custom shower base. Is the 1/2″ ply sufficient below the new shower? I don’t see any reason why I would need cement board under that.

        • Roger

          Yup, not enough beer. 1/4″ backer. Yes, the 1/2″ ply is fine under the shower, no need for backer under that.

  • J Manhardt

    No one mentions the thickness of the thinset. If I put thinset under the backerboards and under the tile, what am I adding to the height? I want to match to the kitchen wood floor into the laundry room we are tiling over 12″ joists and 5/8 plywood. I am thinking I am giving up 1/8th inch, maybe more???? Let me know if you see this.
    And when to hell can I let the dog(s) back in?

    • Roger

      It depends on what size trowel you use. If you use a 1/4″ x 1/4″ you will have 1/8″ under it. Let ’em in now – put ’em to work. :D

  • Vicki beeker

    Thanks Roger, you just taught me few tricks of the trade that I did not know! You’re article brought a few smiles also.
    :)

  • isaac

    Is it possible to put tile down without backer board and will it last?

    • Roger

      Hi Isaac,

      Absolutely, as long as you use an approved tile substrate like ditra, self-leveling cement, Greenskin, etc. It will not last over the wood subfloor. If it’s concrete you can bond directly to that.