There are three basic types of grout available for your tile installation. They are:
- Non-Sanded (also known as Unsanded)
- Sanded
- Epoxy
Choosing the correct grout for your particular installation will not only complete the job correctly, it will also cut down on maintenance. Properly installed and sealed grout will last for the life of your tile. So which to use and when?
Non-Sanded (or Unsanded) Grout
Unsanded grout is made specifically for grout lines smaller than 1/8 inch wide. This is a general rule. I use unsanded grout only in tile with grout lines smaller than 1/16″. Unsanded grout (all grout to different degrees) will shrink as it cures. The reason for only using it in smaller grout lines is the wider the grout lines, the more grout must be used to fill them. The more grout you have, the more it will shrink. If you try to fill grout lines that are too large the grout will shrink enough to pull away from the sides of the tile.
Unsanded grout is easier to work with, especially on vertical surfaces such as a shower wall, because it is “stickier” than the sanded variety. You can spread it onto the wall and it will stick there while you force it into the grout lines. It is also much easier on the hands than sanded. Although it is easier to work with, you need to make sure that the application for which you are using it is correct.
Sanded Grout
Sanded Grout is used for any size grout lines 1/8″ and wider. Although the specifications state unsanded grout be used in grout lines that are exactly 1/8″, you really should use sanded for them. It will ensure proper adhesion to your tile and guard against too much shrinkage. No, not Seinfeld shrinkage, grout shrinkage.
Sanded grout has fine sand added to it. This prevents the grout from shrinking too much as it cures. That’s why it is used for larger grout lines and should be used for the majority of tile installations.
If you have a polished stone such as granite, marble, limestone, and some polished travertine, you should be careful about using sanded grout. While sanded may be the correct choice for the size of grout lines, it may not be the best choice. Depending upon the polish of the stone the sand in the grout may actually scratch it. If you decide to use sanded make sure you test it in an inconspicuous area first to ensure it will not scratch your finish. Or use epoxy which would be a better choice anyway.
Epoxy Grout
Epoxy grout is the top of the line and best choice for any tile application. It can be substituted for sanded or unsanded grout. It is more sturdy than both as well as being waterproof and stain resistant.
Epoxy is a two or three part chemical consisting of the base and the activator. With some brands the color is an additional part that must be added. Once the parts are mixed a chemical reaction begins. From that point, depending on the brand of epoxy, you have only a limited amount of time to get everything grouted before the grout becomes stiff enough to be unworkable. When it reaches that point, if you do not have everything grouted you are SOL.
To help slow the cure time you can mix your epoxy then put half of it in the freezer. The cold air will slow the chemical reaction and lengthen the working time. You can then work with the other half until it is all used. Clean it up, wipe everything down, then grab the second half out of the freezer and finish up. When you first pull it out of the freezer it will be, well, frozen. It thaws quickly, though, so should be workable within a few minutes. This essentially doubles the working time of your grout and ensures you don’t have to rush through it.
Since most epoxy grouts do not contain sand (or at least not in the classic sense of sand) it will normally not scratch your tile. If you have highly polished granite or marble that’s important. Be sure to test first anyway!
Different brands of epoxy have different working times as well as some being more difficult to work with than others. The brand with which I have had the most luck and the only brand I ever use is SpectraLOCK from Laticrete. It has a longer working time than any other epoxy grout (at least any I’ve ever used) and is virtually stain proof. Please don’t take that to mean the you can grout a jacuzzi with it, fill it with cherry kool-aid, and expect it not to be pink (Don’t do that). It just means that for all intents and purposes it will not stain without concerted effort. In my opinion it is the best on the market.
The only drawback of epoxy grout would be the price. It is fairly expensive. When weighed against the upside, however, it is well worth it. Low maintenance demands and high durability of epoxy grout make it well worth the money.
Picking the correct grout for your application is a key part of a proper tile installation. If you choose incorrectly you could end up with a multitude of problems and headaches. Grout, chosen and installed correctly, will complete your tile installation and push it from a good tile job to a great one. Do not underestimate the power of the grout.
Hello Roger:
I am removing the old caulk in my shower since its moldy and was not installed properly. This is where the tile meets the plastic tub so a joint. I would like to know what should I use to re do the whole thing? Grout and then caulk? Just caulk? There are parts where there is no caulk and even no grout anymore (erosion?). What would be my best course of action.
Thanks,
Kay
Hi Kay,
All changes of plane – that includes the tile/tub junction, should have silicone only – no grout. Just remove everything that is currently filling that space and re-fill it with silicone only.
Thank you Roger for your prompt and professional response!!
Hi! – we are doing a custom steam shower. On the long wall we will have regular glass tile – but on the two side walls will be a custom application that incorporates very small shells.
Any idea of what material to cover the shells? a particular epoxy that should be use?
help!
Hi Evelyn,
Are you going to be installing the shells open side out or in? The biggest issue is your substrate – it needs to be properly built for a steam shower. As long as that is correct nothing is really going to hurt the shells – they actually don’t need to be covered at all. The thing you need to be concerned with is that there aren’t any small spaces which can trap water or moisture without the ability to drain. And I don’t know where you bought the shells but they should be cleaned really well and stripped of any finishes placed on them. Hot water vapor will do this for you once they are installed in the steam shower, but you probably want to strip them before – it’ll be easier to clean up any mess it makes. I don’t know that they have anything on them, but better to be safe than to have something being stripped off inside your shower.
Removed cracked grout and caulk from corner of shower wall (where tile meets tile). Can I just re-caulk with silicone or do I need to re-grout it first?
Hi Doris,
No grout – just silicone those corners.
my interior designer has selected some tile for backsplash and fireplace surround that has me scared. It’s a stacked random assortment of 1/4″ glass and marble strips, approx 4″ long on a mesh about 1/16″ apart. What has me leery is cutting this stuff without chipping the edges or ends. Last time I worked with glass AND marble, I found it tricky to get the last little bit to cut cleanly without chipping, and now it’s ALL last-little-bits. Is there a good way to cut this backsplash?
Second, there are a couple of spots where I’m going to have exposed edges, what’s the best way to treat them? They’ll show the cut lines from the saw if they aren’t covered or polished.
Third, what’s a recommended adhesive? We’re going to be going over sheetrock, there’s no real water exposure except for the occasional splash from the sink (which is going to be under-hung on the new counter top).
Hey Geoff,
You can use a glass blade on your saw which will cut cleanly through it (glass and marble) without chipping or leaving lines. You can then use either a marble polishing pad or something similar to polish the edges, it will work on the marble as well as well as the glass. Always, always use (white) thinset behind glass unless a different product is specifically recommended by the manufacturer.
any tips on how to cut through a sheet of the thin pieces without having them twist and get all unaligned?
Hey Geoff,
You can get some clear contact paper and install that to the front of the tiles before you cut them. It will hold them all in place as you cut, then you can install the piece on the wall and peel the contact paper off after the thinset cures.
It depends on the specific type of mastic. Normally the easiest is to scrape it off with a stiff drywall knife. That usually takes it off fairly well.
Hi Adam,
I am just finishing tiling a shower with tumbled limestone. I have 4x4s, 3x6s, 6x6s and 1x1s incorporated in some geometric designs. My nominal grout width is 1/8″, but I have variable from <1/16" to 3/16" in different areas due to tile variances and tumbled edges, etc. The floor is a mud pan with Durarock walls, all taped and sealed with thinset. I then have a coat of the Laticrete paint – Hydronban covering everything up to 5'. Additionally I am using 16x16s on the floor with a 3×6 border all the way around-planning 1/8". Lots of grout lines!!
I was going to use unsanded grout due to very thin clearance on some gaps, but it sounds from reading here that you would recommend sanded or epoxy grout . Any comments? The limestone has lots of varying size holes that will be filled with grout as well (looked great in the showroom!!)
Also, I was told to seal the limestone both before and after grouting. That sounds like overkill – particularly when I see the cost of the natural stone sealant! If I seal before grout and use epoxy am I good to go?
Do you ever mix types of grout or are they too obviously mismatched in color/texture?
Thanks,
Brian
Hey George.
(I’m Roger, not Adam – no worries, I’ve been called worse…)
You are correct – I would recommend sanded or epoxy. While the non-sanded will look good in the very thin grout lines and the very small holes – it will shrink in all the larger stuff and absolutely destroy the look of everything you’ve done. I use sanded in everything except nubbed tiles – less than 1/16″ – and I’ve used sanded for those at times as well. It will work.
You want to seal it before grout to prevent the grout from staining the surface of your limestone. You seal it after grouting to seal the grout (as well as a second coat of sealer on the face of the tile – not always necessary, especially if using a solvent-based sealer). If you use epoxy grout you do not need to seal it after you grout.
The different types of grout are ALWAYS mismatched in texture – sometimes in color as well. And – that’s a hell of a lot more work than you’ll want to do with grout, trust me on that.
Thanks for the reply Roger! I will stick with the sanded, and I am leaning towards the epoxy as well. Do you think the epoxy would pose any additional difficulties for this very hole-y limestone tile? I have a few grouting experiences under my belt, but usually with smooth ceramic and perfectly straight (ok nearly straight) grout lines. If the epoxy is particularly hard to clean off I thought it could pose a problem for the limestone faces and crevices.
Also, I have read to use a silicon caulk in the corners. Would you recommend that for me? This is a 30 year old house with wonderboard screwed to old stable(?) studs for the walls, and a mudded in shower base.
Thanks,
Brian
Hey Brian,
If you use spectraLOCK (Laticrete) it won’t be very much harder than normal sanded grout provided you follow the directions and you seal the limestone before grouting. It should clean off fairly easily.
Use silicone in all changes of plane – all the corners inside the shower. Those are the places any movements will be in opposing directions. Silicone can compensate for that – grout cannot.
Hi Roger,
I am so confused and it sounds like you are giving really good advice and I would like your opinion.
We are placing tile over an outside concrete front patio as an alternative to rebuilding the entire thing. My question is simple but the answers seem to be very mixed and complicated. Should we use epoxy grout. We live in Chicago so temperatures can range from freezing to very hot and because the patio is not covered it will get a lot of rain as well as standing snow in the winter.
The tile is already down and now we need to pull the trigger on what type of grout to use. Can you please help?
Thank in advance,
Tony
Hey Tony,
Epoxy grout would be your best bet in my opinion. You do need to ensure that it is a brand that is UV stable if there is sun shining directly on it for periods of time. If it isn’t UV stable it will tend to fade over time.
Hi Roger,
I like the freezer tip for epoxy grout. I plan on using Spectralok for 1/8 inch grout lines on 13×13 ceramic floor tile. I’ve heard there’s a special grout tool used for epoxy grout. What is that tool? Also, do you have any tips on how to apply and clean up epoxy grout?
Thanks.
It’s an epoxy grout float.
They are made from a harder material than normal grout floats and pack the lines better. I can’t think of another special tool you may be speaking of. Doesn’t mean there isn’t one, just not one I use or can think of right now.
Ok thanks Roger… any tips on installing and cleaning up epoxy grout? I like the benefits of the stuff, but hear it’s sort of tricky to work with.
Thanks.
SpectaLOCK from Laticrete is the easiest to work with. It comes with cleaning packets and very specific amounts of time for initial wiping, final washing, etc. As long as you follow the directions to the letter it is fairly easy. Other brands – not so much. A bit of laundry detergent in your cleaning water will help clean up tremendously.
Hi,
I am installing honey onyx for the first time in a bathroom shower. What type of thinset and grout would work the best to keep the onyx look.
Thank,
Shawn
Hi Shawn,
White modified thinset and non-sanded grout. Sanded grout may scratch the onyx. The lighter the better. The look of onyx comes mainly from the translucence of the stone. This includes light which shines through the SIDE of the tile before it is grouted. Many times people will grout onyx and claim the grout changed the look of the tile – it did, but not for the reason they think. It’s normally due to using a darker shade of grout and limiting the lightness or translucence of the tile, that will change the look of the face of the stone.
Hi
We re having a steam built using 8×8 glass tile. The tile manufacturer recommends a non-sanded grout but our grout lines will be 3/8″ wide. The contractor wants to use sanded grout but it seems that will likely scratch the glass. Will an epoxy grout be a good solution for us?
Thanks for your help.
Holy shit. Umm, I mean – Hi Ian,
Glass tile is not normally a good idea in a steam shower. Unless it is a ‘cast’ glass, which means it’s the expensive stuff, it may lead to problems. The main issue is that glass will expand and contract at a considerably higher rate than anything else around it – especially in a steam shower. The heat will have those tiles dancing. Not normally a good idea. And 3/8″ grout lines? Those are huge. But if you like them they normally won’t negatively affect the installation, but a steam shower is an entirely different animal – the expansion of that glass is going to create a huge amount of pressure on those very large grout lines. It will likely begin to slowly crack the grout lines.
Lecture over…
Yes, you can use epoxy in that situation. Although you may need to check with the glass manufacturer to ensure that epoxy is an acceptable product for use with their product. Some glass manufacturers don’t recommend it, due to the aforementioned expansion issues. In that case the glass is more likely to crack than the grout. That said, non-sanded grout is not going to work with grout lines that large, it’ll shrink to no end. Sanded grout pushes it, most are recommended up to 1/4″, but it would be about the only solution short of epoxy. Test the sanded on an extra piece of the glass to see whether it will scratch or not.
Hi
Thanks for your answer although it didn’t make me feel too good.
The tile was very expensive – about 3 times what the “cheap” stuff costs. It’s made by Interstyle in Canada and sold here under the ann sacks name. I don’t know what the “cast” style is but the compan’s website does say their glass tile can be used in heated environments such as steam rooms and saunas.
I emailed the company today and , without making a specific recommendation, they told me that they had received very good reports about a Laticrete epoxy grout and a StarGlass urethane grout.This is how I ended up on your website as I was not familiar with that type of grout.
Maybe glass tile was a mistake but I’ve bought it now and need to use it. In light of the manufacturer’s partial endorsement would you try the epoxy?
Thanks again
Ian
Okay, Ann sacks by interstyle – you have cast. That’s more reassuring. It can be used with spectralock (laticrete’s epoxy). I’m not a real big fan of urethane grouts, although I’ve heard they’ve come a long way since I last used them about five years ago. I do know the spectralock is the only thing that goes in my steam showers.
You have the correct product, didn’t mean to panic you.
Most people don’t check and buy the $4/sqft crap from the big box store and stick it on the wall with mastic. Glad you aren’t one of them.
Hi
I really appreciate your fast reply. I was nervous. Glad to hear the tile type should be ok.
I hope I’m not asking too many questions but I do have a couple more. Would I use epoxy grout because it’s a steam shower and it’s more water resistant or because it’s glass tile and the sanded grout would scratch it or both? Trying to figure out if the risk of the tile cracking instead of the grout is offset by benefits of water resistance and no scratching.
Also, on shower floor can sanded grout be used. The floor is just regular tile.
Thanks again.
Ian
Hey Ian,
Never too many questions if it leads to a properly built shower, eh? Epoxy for both reasons. It’s simply a better, more durable product. With cast glass the tile cracking is not really too much of a possibility, ann sacks is good stuff. Epoxy is definitely the way to go. Yes, sanded can be used on the floor.
Hi
Thanks for your reply. I’ve been away for a few days.
I’ve been researching the thinset mortars. The manufacturer website mentions both mapei granirapid and laticrete 254 platinum. Also, I saw on the Laticrete website a new one called glass tile adhesive. I wonder if you had any thoughts on these choices.
Thanks
Ian
If you can get the glass tile thinset from laticrete that’s the way I’d go. I know the 254 platinum is great stuff and will work just fine for your shower. The glass thinset is so new I really don’t know the specs on usage in a steam shower. BUT! you can call laticrete’s support line and ask them. These people know their stuff and will be more than happy to help you out. If the glass thinset won’t work or isn’t readily available I would go with the 254 Platinum. Keep in mind when ordering and purchasing that the glass tile adhesive is sold in 25lb. bags rather than 50lbs. Check the coverage calculator for the one you choose.
Hi,
you might remember an earlier post a few months ago that discussed the installation of my marble floors, which included, cracked grout lines, cracked tiles, missing tiles…only to name a few problems. Now the (big company) has decided that it was their subcontractors fault and will reinstall the floor. The options are: option 1:removing all new cabinets, then the floors (including some tiles under the cabinets), reinstall the floors, and then the cabinets, or option 2: allow them to take out the existing marble flloors, and not remove the cupboards (removing the kickplate and trying to hide some of the grout line). There are pos and cons to both, but we are unsure as to how to continue. What is your opinion. Remove the new cupboards or work around them.
Thanks.
Hey Shelley,
It depends on what you have on your countertops. If you have something that is not easily removed and replaced, such as granite or tile countertops, then I would be more apt to leave them in place and remove the toe kicks. If you have something like laminate counters I would have them remove it. Depending on how pissed you are at them I would make them remove everything and do it right from scratch, but I’m an ass like that.
You might be an ass, but I’ve turned out to be a bitch! The counter tops aren’t even in place yet. They started the job on March 28th and it’s June 2nd! I don’t want to let the fact that I’m tired of my kitchen being a mess outweigh getting it perfect. I’ve also brought up the fact of being compensated twice and they did not reply. I did not push it as I want it done right. It’s looking like we are going to tell them to remove evertyhing, and put it back in place perfectly. I’m assuming (and I will tell them this), that any damaged cupboards will be replaced. I have been the nice person up to this point, but no longer. I don’t think that they realize that I’m done being nice, and I will get things perfect, and I will be compensated, even if it means having a 8month pregnant lady picketing outside their entrance.
Good! I’m glad to hear you’re not letting them off easily.
An update,
tiles were replaced and look great…except for the fine lines that you can see in the grout throughout the floor. We asked the installer if we should spray the grout with a water mist for a day after it was layed so that the grout wouldn’t dry so fast and create cracks. He said no. So why the fine lines?
Hi Shelley,
If there are fine lines in the grout right after it was grouted then it was quite simply grouted incorrectly. The lines are likely from shrinking, and indication of:
1. Non-sanded grout being used in grout lines which are too large.
2. The grout being mixed with too much water – not per manufacturer’s instructions
3. The grout curing too quickly (you were correct about the misting in hot or dry conditions. Always a good idea in any conditions).
They screwed up your grout. Jump in somebody’s ass!
Another question:
A person looking at the fine lines in the grout, on my floors, suggested that they may need to be filled with siliconized grout. What are your thoughts?
How can fine lines in grout be fixed?
Not sure what person that would be but if you want to use siliconized grout you will need to remove all the grout currently in there. If the cracks are due to shrinkage in the grout then it was not correctly grouted. If it is due to movement then you have larger underlying issues with the installation itself. Filling it with siliconized grout is not a viable solution. Using it with the existing grout may cause the silicone aspect of the grout to leech into the regular grout and discolor portions of it. Your entire grout installation will look splotchy.
ok, yet another question…
Can you please tell me what solutions there might be to fix fine lines in cracked grout. This is truely unbelieveable and frustration is not even the right word to use to describe my feelings/thoughts.
Hi Shelley,
I know you are frustrated – understandably so. After reading through all your questions and replies it seems to be that the cracks in the grout lines are due to improper installation of the grout. Since these are just hairline cracks the only solution that will last long-term is to have the grout removed and have the floor regrouted. Simply filling the grout lines with more grout in hopes that it will fix it will lead to the fill eventually cracking back out – it won’t stay.
I believe the suggestion made to use siliconized grout derived from knowledge of this – the siliconized grout is more flexible and will remain for a longer period of time (filling the cracks) but may lead to other issues, as I’ve stated above. The only solution is to remove what is currently there and replace it with whatever type of grout you desire. Once it is removed you can use siliconized grout, epoxy, or just regular cementitious grout – as long as it is correctly installed it will be fine.
I can’t wait to see how this situation plays out.
Roger, great info on this site!! I have a specific question/problem.
Last week we finished a bathroom remodel. The shower has aquarium glass walls on 2 sides, 2×2 stone on the floor and 3″ x 12″ glass tile (intended for use as an accent tile) all over the other two walls (each wall is covered 5 feet by 8 feet high). There is a rain head in the ceiling and a handheld shower on one tile wall pointed at the other tile wall (on a 45 degree angle).
The tile surface has alternating strips of wave texture running the length of the accent tile. The grout joints are 1/8 to 3/16 of an inch on every side (the ends of the tiles resemble a notched trowel due to the wave pattern). The tiles are laid horizontally with 3 offset starting points (to create a subway tile effect). The installer used white sanded grout and then we sealed the joints twice with a breathable sealer. Each time we soaked the grout joint with the sealer.
On the second day of use, water began to appear behind the glass tile in a spot where the handheld spray was hitting the glass tile wall. The water dripped down generally following the vertical grout lines but also spread behind the tiles near the top of the stain. It most resembled a mushroom cloud from an atomic test, but I might be projecting here…
We found a few pinholes in the grout joint, but the leak seemed to be larger than such a tiny hole would allow. We suspect the water was seeping through the sealed grout or where the grout met the glass tile.
Over the last 2 days, the contractor has been out and cut out the grout lines where the stain is. We have had fans and a small heater on the spot for 36 hours. The moisture stain IS fading and is almost gone; however, the permanent solution to the problem is the real reason I am writing.
We have considered re-sealing, silicone or latex caulking the grout lines, a white waterproof paint or covering and re-grouting again with more sanded grout. We are also considering a complete tear down and rebuild with regular (non-transparent) tile. The contractor’s best suggestion is to remove all the sanded grout he can and then re-grout with epoxy. He has stated this will create an impermeable barrier and should eliminate the issue of the intrusion via the spray. BUT…he cautions that because it will be impermeable, any trapped water (either existing or yet to come) will be trapped. I read that ALL shower walls leak or absorb water to some degree over time. I fear a visible, moldy disaster beautifully highlighted by $2,500 worth of accent tile which we should never have used for this application.
Do you have any thoughts on the proposed corrective plan? Is a glass tile shower wall simply a bad idea given the wet location?
Thank you.
Terry
Hi Terry,
Sealer does NOT make anything waterproof – ever. Sealer only makes tile and grout stain-resistant. You can apply 100 coats of sealer and it won’t stop the water. Glass tile is a very specialized installation technique, and they differ depending on the type of glass being installed. Your glass accent tile can be used in a shower – as long as they are properly installed. Since they are transparent steps should have been taken to eliminate the moisture behind the tile from being seen from the front.
Epoxy will work to keep most of the moisture out of there. Since it isn’t a steam shower (you didn’t mention that) it would likely eliminate any moisture from penetrating from the front. You will still see moisture entering from the top, however. IF you can get the epoxy installed all the way back and in 100% contact with the substrate you may be able to eliminate moisture entering from the top. That, however, leaves open the possibility of moisture above that epoxy grout being permanently trapped above it with no way to drain. That may create a whole different set of problems.
Your contractor is correct about the trapped water issue, it will have no way to dissipate. I think at this point he is correct about the method, grout it with epoxy and that should resolve most of it. I would let it dry out and keep the fans on it for about a week to get rid of as much moisture as you possibly can. After epoxy is used it should eliminate most of the water back there. Any that does get in there will likely drain down and at least not collect in one particular area like it is now. It sounds like the best solution at this point.
A question:
We recently bought a condo that sat unoccupied for approximately 2 years since built new. The issue I am running into is with the tile showers. In both cases they used what seems to be a stone type tile, its definitely not ceramic (I think) for both the floor in the bathroom and walls of the shower. Where the tile meets the tub in one bathroom. It looks like the grout has shrunk ‘dried out looking’ and pulled away from the tub leaving a gap. Similarily this has occurred between some of the tiles. It looks as though this may be because they used the wrong grout as mentioned above in other posts, and it just shrank as it cured.
After reading through many of the comments. It seems that I’ll have to get some one in to remove the grout in place, and replace with the epoxy grout you speak of? The floors in the bathroom do not exhibit the same issue, however the grout gaps seem smaller, its a horizontal plane, etc.
Does this sound about right? I would send a picture, or post one, however have to find a place to park it so I can link it to a post.
Further, after reading through the Carmen exchanges (good way to learn); for the spot where the tile hits the horizontal surface of the tub (a plane change?) Would I use a silicone here as opposed to grout? The tub surface is some form of acrylic or other polycarbonite.
Thanks.
Adam
Hey Adam,
The cracking grout at the change of plane is common – that’s why changes of plane should be caulked or siliconed. The movement in different directions will crack grout – but you already knew that.
So yes, the joint between the tile and tub should be siliconed.
The cracking between the tiles could be a number of things – incorrect grout included. The grout should be replaced but you should figure out the exact cause of that cracking before doing that – otherwise it may just happen again. The grout does not necessarily need to be replaced with epoxy grout – although that would be ideal. Regular sanded grout will last just fine provided the substrate is properly constructed. Just a shot in the dark here, but are the cracks in the grout lines every three or four feet in a straight line, or are they all over the place in random spots?
Ahhhh sheeting behind the tile vs some other issue you mean? I do notice that on the shower wall the tile, and these are some what larger rectangular tiles (should have mentioned) aren’t quite flat. There is some variance in them I might uneducatedly attribute to adhesive thickness, nothing horrible, but not perfect.
In double checking, nothing with any regularity, except that accross most lines I can get a fine powder off of the grout with finger nails, and it seems more like its just in random spots. The worst is where it meets the tub. The other spots just seem more like a bit of shoddy application or that its breaking down or something. There is no movement at all in the wall to push on it. And ofcoursr now that I go looking for them… harder to find the defects I saw before.
From the slight powder that I get from the joints, is there a way to determine if it was sanded or non sanded grout? Would the particulate feel more coarse?
Mainly I am concerned with protecting the wall in behind the tile, secondary concern is that if I pay to have someone come in to fix, I want it done once properly so that its not a reoccurring theme.
Thanks.
Adam
In that case it is likely simply incorrect grout type or poor installation. The easiest way to determine the type of grout is to run your finger over an area that is not compromised. If it feels rough it is sanded. If you can scratch it with your fingernail fairly easily and it is not rough it is probably unsanded grout. If it is unsanded that is probably the problem. It is commonly mixed incorrectly, cleaned with too much water, or not packed into the joints well enough. Any of which can lead to powdery grout over time.
Since the worst areas are at the tub – which should have been caulked to begin with – simply regrouting it will likely solve the problem. I would regrout it with either epoxy or regular sanded grout.
About to tile my kitchen/breakfast area with 20×20 tiles (400-500 ft2). Under the table doing a different tile (13×13) turned in a diamond patter, with border tile strips all the way around, so that it looks like a ~7×9 ft rug. So there will be 2 different grout colors. Every forum site i’ve read with installers contributing seem to recommend Spectralock as their favorite grout. I called Lowe’s to check on price, and the guy mentioned that for a job this size, epoxy grout might not be the best because of the working time. He said when you mix different batches, you make get color variations. Also, on Lowe’s website, they showing sanded grout Laticrete products (not Spectralock) & reviews were terrible about color accuracy. Comments on job size and color accuracy please? Job being done next week! Thanks!
Hey Sharon,
The regular laticrete grout is good stuff, too. Most problems with inconsistent grout color, or splotchy grout, are simply from improper mixing, installation, or cleaning. This would likely be expounded in those particular reviews as just about every one of them is someone that likely is using grout for the first time and is not familiar with the product nor the importance of following the instructions very accurately.
I can say that I have NEVER had a problem with spectralock being inconsistent from unit to unit – ever. Advice to not use epoxy due to working time is simply ludicrous to me. That is true with normal cementitious grouts if they are not mixed together first, but not with spectralock in my experience. Another example of a big box employee having just enough information to be dangerous.
I have grouted a 2500 square foot (that is not a typo) floor with spectralock – and it is consistent throughout. I even jumped from room to room and tied them together – all using different units. Nothing was mismatched. If you are worried about it you can always take all the powder from all the units, mix them together, then weigh them out and separate them back into individual units. This will ensure consistency no matter how small a batch you choose to mix at a time.
Hi Roger,
I am planning to install Porcelain Tile on my Kitchen. I am going with a contractor and he suggested to use Tru Grout. Its a premixed product and we have to never seal it. It is a bit expensive. Whats your opinion on this product?
Also,can you please let me know what would be the the best type of Grout to use with porcelain tile. And if i have to seal it what kind of sealer to use.
Your response would definitely help me in making the right choice.
Thanks a lot
Raghu
Hi Raghu,
I have never used tru grout. From what I gather it is a polyurethane based product. Any of those products I’m familiar with require a looooooong time to fully cure and I honestly do not know about the long-term durability of them. I also have a very strong dislike for anything in a bucket that remains workable until installation. Although with grout you are not placing a tile over it – grout is subjected to constant dirt, cleaning, abrasion and stresses. I simply don’t like it.
If it were mine I would install epoxy. It’s still a bit expensive but it’s essentially bulletproof, never needs sealing, consistent color and stain resistant. With epoxy you will, literally, never have to worry about your grout if the installation is cleaned and maintained regularly. I think that would be the best route.
Hello,
I was wondering whether one can pack the grout well in 1/16″ joints of 3/8″- depth between rectified tiles using ultracolor plus from MAPEI (sanded polymer coated cement). I plan to remove the powdery sanded grout between the tiles myself using the thin diamond blades 3/32″ and a Fein supercut and I have some questions about the grout application.
I will hire a tile installer to apply the grout by sections of 15 sq. ft to ensure that there are not problems with the 30 min-60 min pot life and the cleaning after the application (according to the manufacturer’s instructions). The installer mentioned that he will not be able to completely fill the 3/8″ depth of the 1/16″ joints. I don’t have a problem paying to apply the grout in small sections, but the tiler seem to expect problems filling the joints well.
Could you please comment on the possible limitations to apply sanded grout in 1/16″ joints with 3/8″ depth?
Thank you very much
Hi Carmen,
I use only sanded grout in any grout lines larger than 1/32″. I install most of my showers with 1/16″ grout lines and do not use unsanded grout – can’t stand the stuff. It does take a bit of practice but it is entirely possible to fill those grout lines with sanded grout. Rather than using a normal grout float an epoxy grout float will make it considerably easier.
Here’s what I’d be concerned with first – why is your current grout powdery? Most grout problems are due to movement of some sort which is indicative of improper substrate preparation. Make sure you know what is causing the problems and have that fixed first. Otherwise you may very well have the same problem on your hands a short time down the road – sanded grout or not. It will become powdery due to movement as well, it’s just a more coarse powder.
if you use the standard 4×4 tiles like you’d pick up from the big box store and install them lug to lug, what size grout line would you expect to see?
Normally 1/16″.
Hi Roger
Thank you very much for your prompt reply.
I am pleased to know that I will be OK applying sanded grout in 1/16″ joints of the walls and that an epoxy grout float will be helpful to fill the joint with grout. I believe the grout should have a peanut butter consistency and I was a little concerned about working the gout in the joint.
I appreciate very much the warning about the powdering resulting from weakness in the substrate preparation. The walls were remodeled about 6 months ago as follows:
a-An old wall made of bricks was covered with plaster weld, thinset (ultraflex LFT from MAPEI), and large 2′ x 4″x 3/8″ rectified porcelain tiles.
b-Others were made with studs and covered with Durock cement board, aquadefense from MAPEI, thinset, and 2′ x 4″ porcelain tiles.
c-Another was made with studs and covered with plywood, Durock cement board, thinset, 2′ x 4″ porcelain tiles.
The grout comes easily from some joints using the fingernails in all the walls. There are also regions within certain joints in which the grout is hard to remove. I have only tested a few joints, but I observe routinely some powder on the floor and the fixtures. The fact that the wall’s grout and tiles are sand color and the floor’s grout and tiles are charcoal color helps me to see the powdering effect. I believe I sent some pictures a while back when I was considering to hire a tiler to apply epoxy grout. The extent of the repair has been increasing as I observe more problems in the area surrounding the tub. In light of that, I have decided to do part of the job myself to cut costs and do it as I want it.
Coming back to the powdery behavior, I am strongly inclined to consider that the growth (ultracolor plus from MAPEI) was prepared, applied, and clean without taking into consideration the manufacturer instructions. I may still be wrong. In light of that I am considering to apply first the grout in the floor and see the behavior for a week or so.
Is that a reasonable plan?
As far as evaluating whether there are problems in the substrate preparation, I have been always concerned that weakness in the structure of the bathroom may produce fracture in the porcelain tiles some years from now. I do have pictures that show some of the process preparing the bathroom.
Could you please comment on the substrate preparation?
Thank you
Carmen
Hey Carmen,
Not sure about that brick wall being covered with plaster weld. It says right there in their FAQ’s:
)
8. Is Plaster-Weld® a water retardant or water barrier?
Once the new plaster is completely dry, Plaster-Weld® is unaffected by humidity or condensation. It is not intended for use as a water barrier. It is not recommended for use where hydrostatic pressure is present.
Hydrostatic pressure is constantly present in shower walls. I don’t know how much that would affect your tile, though. I’m not familiar with the product at all since, you know, it isn’t made for showers.
The walls coated with Aquadefense should be just fine. The one made of ‘studs and covered with plywood, Durock cement board, thinset, 2′ x 4″ porcelain tiles…’ though, I don’t see anything indicating a vapor barrier nor waterproofing membrane – is this inside of a shower as well? (For that matter – are any of them?
The last is the one with which I would be most concerned. That durock is gonna get wet – when it does the plywood is gonna get wet – when it does your dog is gonna explode! (OK, maybe just a light smolder to begin with, but it’ll get worse).
I don’t know if or how much that may have to do with your powdery grout. Ultracolor is fairly touchy stuff and the directions should be followed precisely (as well as any other product, come to think of it). That in itself may be the problem. You can do the floor first and observe it but I would be more inclined to do a wall first – the plywood one as a matter of fact. You’ll likely get the most movement there if it is moving.
Hi Roger,
The wall with the plywood and the wall with the plaster weld are not shower walls.
I will have to check with my GC because I realize that they waterproofed the walls surrounding the tub up to the top edge and the walls that cover the main plumbing.
By the way, the wall with the plywood sits next to the sink and covers some plumbing and it may have been waterproofed.
Do I still have to be concerned about humidity getting into the walls without waterproofing (in particular, the wall next to the sink if it was not waterproofed) that do not surround the tub?
I was considering to get a dehumidifier for the Summers which are very humid in Manhattan.
Will that help minimize the mold growth in the Durock/plywood?
Thanks again
Aaaah, I gotcha. Humidity should not affect that wall negatively at all. You will have humidity on both sides of the wall anyway – inside the wall cavity contains moisture as well. A dehumidifier never hurts anything. All the areas you’ve described, even next to the sink, are considered dry areas so no need to worry. I would still test on a vertical surface, anyway. Gravity can assist you in determining whether or not you have a more pressing issue.
Good to know. Thanks Roger
Roger:
I am installing a ceramic tile shower, using 2″X2″ mosiac tile with 1/8″ cut for the floor. Contractor used unsanded grout for floor and it was noticed that a lot of the grouting had cracks. The grout has not yet been sealed. Should the grout be removed and replaced with sanded grout? How much of the grout has to be removed before using sanded grout?
Please help
Glenn
Hey Glenn,
The ‘cracks’ are likely due to the grout actually shrinking. Although non-sanded grout is specified for grout lines 1/8″ and smaller I rarely use it in anything more than 1/16″. It has been my experience that it is simply too unpredictable from brand to brand, and even within the same manufacturer’s line. In other words, sometimes it’ll shrink a lot and sometimes it won’t. If the grout is still ‘fresh’ – grouted less than four days or so, he may be able to go back over it with more unsanded and fix it. The grout should be mixed a bit on the thick side, though, to minimize shrinking.
If you do want to take it out and use sanded the grout lines need to be cleaned out to at least 2/3 the depth of the tile.
I have had a new granite counter top installed (highly polished black) and have a large gap 1/4″-1/2″ between the counter and the tile backsplash . Instead of caulking this myself I am going to hire a local tile company to do the caulk job. They reccomended using laticrete siliconized acrylic caulk. Is this the best material to use?
Hey Scot,
Yes, absolutely, no question about it. And I’m not even being a smart ass, I’m serious. They can also use the 100% silicone Latasil by laticrete, either one would work well.
Cool thanks!
Yes, Roger, still rereading since the tile guy sent by God is supposedly behind on his last job so hasn’t started yet. So, for a person who doesn’t like recaulking often, would the Latasil stuff be better?
Thanks,
Ceci
100% silicone is always better. And latasil is normally better than the others (in my opinion).
Good. The way things are going, I might actually end up doing this whole thing myself. OK, almost the whole thing, not getting into the plumbing. Yes, Roger, I can do it, remember I’m a grasshopper. I figured out how to fix my furnace so there should be no reason I can’t do this and not have it fall apart.
Roger, I know I ask lots and lots of questions so some may get missed which I completely understand so hope you don’t get a red face since I’m asking again. Is there anything “special” that you do when laying down glass tiles on a floor? Am mostly using ceremic, but hope to put in liners that are 1/2 wide and about 6 inches long between the ceremic. I called the manufacturer again and they said Redguard can be used as the anti-fracture membrane and I have the correct Laticrete thinset for glass. When laying down the second piece of plywood on the floor, should it go perpendicular to the first piece?
Hope Sparky is doing well.
Thanks,
Ceci
You just need to make absolutely sure that you have full coverage of thinset under the glass.
Each piece of plywood is installed perpendicular to the underlying layer and the seams overlap a minimum of 1/4 the length and width of the board.
Me again. Should there be a gap between the floor plywood and the lower wall plate or whatever that thing is called? Sorry if I missed the answer to that one. Could have. Also, should there be a gap between the hardiebacker and the corner wall stud? I would think there should be to allow for the stud to do its thing.
Thanks,
Ceci
Hi Me again,
Yes, there should be a 1/8″ gap in both those areas to allow for expansion.
Thanks, Roger. No filling with anything, correct?
Ceci
Correct.
Roger, since it’s getting close to the end just wanted to tell Sparky and you how much I appreciate the patience you both show to people who have never ending questions. Yes, people like me. Also, very much appreciate the devotion you and Sparky have to helping others. Not as common as one would think, hope for. Today, also noticed something else. There is no “machoness” in your responses like some other site that I shall not name. Long story. Yes, I often seem to have long stories.
Thank you,
Ceci
Morning Rog’!
My husband’s jealous ’cause I luv u…anyway…
I will be mixing tile types on my bath floor & shower walls. Porcelain & polished flat natual stone on my floor & porcelain w/linear glass tiles in my shower. Do I need to use epoxy grout for the stone on the floor then switch to sanded grout when I get to the porcelain areas? Same for the transition from glass tile to the porcelain on the shower walls?
Help Ol’ Great One!!
Lori
Hey Lori,
The only place you may run into problems with epoxy grout is in the glass tile. That is only a problem if they are large format glass tiles (larger than four square inches each in this case) then the difference in expansion and contraction between the glass and adjoining tile or stone with epoxy may place undue stress on the glass and crack it. If they’re small glass tiles there’s no need to worry about it. You can use epoxy for the porcelain as well as the stone, no need to switch from one to the other.
Can’t just use sanded grout on the whole tile job?’
Lori
Sure you can. I thought you were asking about the viability of using epoxy for the whole thing – you can absolutely use sanded for all of it. Sorry, I haven’t had enough beer yet…:D
I need lots of help! Fast!
We are doing a whole kitchen reno (big company) and the subcontractors have screwed up my marble floors. 7 cracked tiles, scratches, grout lines off, holes in marble tiles filled with grout, all tiles uneven (no level used) and now cracking of grout lines. The only water source he used was the shut off hot water tap = grout cracks – maybe. What to do, I don`t know. Should I let them try to fix it, or should they start over. Please give me advice as I haven`t signed off on anything yet and they are coming back in two days. thanks so much.
Hi Shelley,
When you say the subcontractors, do you mean that this ‘big company’ has contractors that do their tile work or that the ‘big company’ has their guys do everything including the tile? If it is the former you should begin with the general contractor for the company you hired. If the latter you should begin at the chain of command above whomever installed the marble. Either way you need to start by going back to whomever is in charge at this company and let them know what is happening. If they disagree or argue with you about it simply remind them that you are footing the bill for that mess. Or, more precisely, not footing the bill if the problems are not resolved.
The bottom line is that you are not satisfied with the work that was performed. And if it’s as bad as you make it sound you probably should have thrown their asses off the job long before now – but that isn’t really something that you should be responsible for. You hired the company to perform a service – they have not done that to your satisfaction, period. It needs to be fixed or you will not pay the bill. Absolutely do not sign a damn thing until you are 100% satisfied with the work. Go up the chain of command at that company and don’t let them tell you it’s right if it isn’t. If need be get a third party involved in the form of a professional tile contractor and have them take a look at it and list all the things that are incorrect. Document everything! You are the one that must live with this – they only want a paycheck. People like that give my profession a bad name and piss me off to no end.
Hot water isn’t gonna affect anything you’ve describes except perhaps the look of the grout. Grout cracks mean either incorrect grout choice or movement. One barely chipped tile is absolutely unacceptable with marble, let alone 7 cracked tiles and/or scratched stone. Uneven tiles are a sign of someone that doesn’t know what they’re doing. I wouldn’t let them touch the tile again, they obviously don’t know how to correctly install stone – it’s entirely different than ceramic or porcelain.
If you need more in-depth answers, have specific questions or need someone to actually take a look at it if it gets that far feel free to email me at Roger@FloorElf.com and I’ll do anything I can to help out.
Roger,I agree with everything you said. It would be good to take pictures of the defects.
One thing you said piqued my curiosity: What are the main differences between working with stone and ceramic/porcelain?
Hey Geoff,
Most stones have rectified edges – they’re not rounded or ‘pillowed’. The recified, or square, edges coupled with the fact that you normally use very small grout joints leaves very little wiggle room for error. If it is even just a tiny bit off with regards to differing heights (lippage) it is immediately noticeable. Also given that natural stone tiles are actually cut to final size from the slab rather than baked or heated leaves them with an almost zero variance in sizing from tile to tile. If the grout lines are not perfect that also stands out right away.
Tolerances with installing in those regards are demanding. Coupled with the need for a stiffer or more durable substrate which will properly support the installation as well as compensate for given loads it requires a much more demanding installation technique and greater knowledge and problem solving skills on a job to job basis. Every one will be different.
I only used stone once, 12×12, over some small areas. One thing that drove me nuts was the natural veins. when cutting the tiles, I would get nearly to the end of a cut and it would take off down one of the veins. They are so much more fragile than tile!
Thanks for all the advice,
considering I have 281 square feet (minus the area they didn’t do under the cupboards that were paid for) of marble (12 by 12 tile, diamond pattern), the height difference from one tile to the next is greater than the thickness of a dime on every one (no level was used), and almost every grout line is cracked, should it be ripped out along with the hardiboard, and started fresh with something like detra as a new subfloor. A little note, this ‘big company’ (national chain) required us to pay for the job upfront, however the job is not paid to the subcontractor until we are satisfied. It took them a week and a half from the time they screwed up to even schedule an appointment to come back and I’m doing dishes in my bathroom sink as they didn’t tile fully under the dishwasher or fridge. This was even before the cracks in the grout and I have left a message with the “big company’s” installations supervisor. I have become the squeaky, pregnant, wheel.
Shelley,
If the tile and grout are cracking it means that the substrate was not properly prepared and strengthened for a stone installation. It’s really that simple, the people setting the marble obviously do not know what is needed to set stone successfully or correctly. National chains – any of them – contract through companies who hire nearly anyone with a trowel as a ‘professional’. Granted there are a lot of good professional installers contracting through that company but there are also just as many non-professionals. They make crap (seriously – about 1/2 of what you paid for the installation portion is what the installer will actually make) and rarely get actual training for the job. It’s all about the bottom line – period.
On the plus side since it is a national company you always have someone else higher up on the ladder. If someone doesn’t give you a satisfactory answer go higher. Don’t worry about being the squeaky wheel. If the installation is done improperly it’s on them – not you. You can be damn sure that if I spend thousands of dollars on anything it will be completed to my satisfaction – that’s a lot of money. Big companies tend to lose sight of that. It needs to be torn out, the substrate needs to be prepared properly according to TCNA and MIA substrate standards regarding natural stone, and re-installed by someone who actually knows what the two previous acronyms stand for.
Tell them to make you happy or you’ll make their life miserable until your unborn child graduates college! 
At least I can still laugh, and you are funny. I will forward the acronyms to the company’s supervisor as I have no clue what they stand for. Are you willing to fly three time zones east and one country north to the newest location of this national chain? Ha! I’m thinking of giving this website to the company. I would actually like to start a rate your contractor website for my province. I’ll get on that during my maternity leave. Wait, I’ll probably still be dealing with this mess during that time.
Thanks for all your help. I’ll let everyone know what happens.
Tile Council of North America and Marble Institute of America. Just had to show off a little. Now don’t let the big box guys know where to find this.. Let them google it for themselves.
Hello. Our master bath shower floor is being tiled with 12X12 meshed pebble rock. The tiler completed about 15 sf of grouting and we don’t like grout color with the rock. The total area to be grouted is about 55 sf. He used a sanded grout which was done about 24 hrs ago. I volunteered to remove the grout from the 15 sf portion but the tiler said I would have to remove all the stone as well and start over again. Can’t the sanded grout be scored to 1/2 the depth and the correct colored grout be applied over it? The other suggestion he had is to finish the grouting job with the new colored grout and then use grout color on the 15 sf section we don’t like. What do you think? Thank you.
Hey Kim,
No need to remove all the grout and stones. You can remove the grout down to the mid-point of the stone and regrout. If you try to use a colorant on only a portion of the grout it won’t match. Just remove grout until you get to the edge of the stones (the middle of the stone in the grout line depth).
I’m getting ready to re-grout the tile around the top portion of my in-ground swimming pool. I have 6 rows of 1 inch ceramic tile around the perimeter of the pool and approximately 2 bottom rows of tile will be under water at all times when the pool is in use. What type of grout should I use to be certain that the grout will not crumble away after it has been exposed to water for a long period of time?
Hi Brian,
I would use and epoxy grout on that. I don’t do swimming pools so I don’t actually know how chlorine affects regular cementious grout but I know that epoxy grouts are used in swimming pools all the time – so that’s likely your best bet.
Hi Roger,
I am installing a marble countertop. After reading your explanation of grouts, I think that epoxy will be best in my application. However, I went to SpectraLock’s website and they say use vinegar to clean the excess grout. Since marble is basically calcium carbonate and vinegar is an acid, will the vinegar dull or damage the marble tiles? If so what would you recommend?
Thanks
Dave
Hi Dave,
White vinegar when diluted at 10:1 (for epoxy cleaning purposes) is not acidic enough to negatively affect your marble. If you are worried about it you can use dishwashing detergent (the kind for the dishwasher) and add 1Tbsp to 2 gallons of warm water – it’ll take the excess grout haze right off.
When using the spectralock pay careful attention to the cleaning times listed in the directions – it makes cleaning so much easier and leaves you with little or no excess haze at all. Your spectralock will come with two packages of water additive for each cleaning stage. If you use them and heed the cleaning times you shouldn’t need to worry about an extra cleaning solution at all – vinegar or anything else.
This is Carmen again. Hope not to become a nuisance
.
I reviewed the brochure of the Fein multimaster that you suggested for grout removal and called tech services about the blades for joints that are either 1/16″ or in between 1/16″ -1/8″ like ours.The rep recommended:
1-thin carbide blade is a circular blade (# 63502125010) for the 1/16 (Fein does not offer the same thin blade in diamond)
2-carbide segment saw blade (#63502118016) for the next size of 2.2 mm (Fein offers also the same blade in diamond).
I noticed that they have blades made of carbide or diamond. Since some of our grout joints (utracolor plus from MAPEI, a sanded grout for 1/16″ joints) are powdery and others are hard to remove with a finger nail (I did not try to remove the grout in the shower area to avoid surface exposure to humidity and I suspect those joints are harder), would you recommend carbide or/and diamond blades
?
Looking at the brochure, it occurred to me that removing grout from the horizontal joints where the planes change like floor/wall, wall corners should be done carefully to avoid scratching our rectified porcelain tiles with matte finish. Luckily they are colored throughout and quite forgiving to scratches. Since It seems that Fein lists the diamond segment saw blade instead of the circular diamond blade to use throughout the bathroom (page 14 of brochure) and the thin blade 1/16″ comes only as a circular carbide blade, I was wondering whether the removal can be done with two blades:
a-the thin circular carbide blade for removal throughout the 1/16″ joints
b- the diamond segment saw blade slightly bigger than 1/16″ (2.2 mm) for all the other joints and some corners.
That leaves some 1/16″ corners where the floor or tub meets a wall corner to be done by hand. Does this picture looks right to you
?
I also noticed that Fein offers a flexible scrapper blade to remove caulk. Since the perimeter of the bath tub should be re caulk well and it is a rather small area (the original installer may have fill the joint first with the ultraflex LFT thinset from MAPEI, in which case it would be bound to crack and it should be also removed. I would not be surprised to find more skeletons in the closet
), would you recommend to remove the caulk manually using a scrapper 
?
Would you mind if I ask you later about an odd repair (typical of a 1925 building) that needs to be done also in our bathroom
?
carmen the pest
Hi Roger,
I was wondering whether you can give me guidance about what is the best to fill expansion joints in the bathroom. I mean an alternative that I could do again by myself like caulking every year.
Our installer used grout in the vertical and horizontal expansion joints in our recently remodelled bathroom. The horizontal (1/16 to 1/4”) expansion joint, where the floor meets the wall, was the first one to crumble about two months after being grouted with Ultracolor plus without having moved back into our remodelled apartment. Then, the grouted vertical and caulked horizontal joints around the bath tub, which are located near a window, cracked badly.
I got two proposals from installers:
One proposed to use Keracaulk U to fill the 1/16″ joint with 3/8″-depth in two stages using tape to get a final clean joint in all vertical and horizontal joints.
Another proposed to inject first acrylic unsanded caulk from Laticrete to fill the 1/16″ joint with 3/8″-depth and secondly, to apply epoxy grout (spectra lock pro) from Laticrete to match the grout joint throughout the bathroom.
It seems to me that the powdering of the horizontal joint floor/wall was linked to structural settlement after the gut renovation, but the cracking around the tub seems to be linked to seasonal changes going from Summer to Winter temperatures/humidity.
Since we are seeking to repair (re-grout and recaulk) the bathroom, what will be your recommendations as far as the 1/16″ expansion joints? I understand that caulking deep joints require backer rod but our joints are too thin for that.
Thanks in advance for your help.
Carmen
What you are describing are the changes of plane rather than expansion joints. Standards state that any change of plane be caulked or siliconed (silicone is the better option) rather than grouted, specifically for the reasons you’ve stated – grout will crack. Grout is solid and will crack with excess movement. Any change of plane, where two different surfaces meet, will have movement over time due to seasonal changes as well as different materials expanding and contracting at different rates (where your wall meets the tub). The tub will also move fairly significantly every time it is filled and drained – water’s heavy. Grout cannot withstand this movement – silicone will, it’s flexible.
The grout needs to be scraped out and replaced with caulk or silicone – the entire depth of the tile. They should be filled and, if the caulk or silicone shrinks significantly, filled again with a second bead. You don’t want grout in there, sanded or unsanded. Epoxy is not flexible but it should withstand these movements. The grout will not crack but it may pull away from the tile. Either option is viable but the silicone (or caulk) would be the norm and, in my opinion, the best.
Thanks for all your explanations. They help me a great deal to make better choices and it crossover with the bits and pieces of information that I gathered surveying sites and reading technical data from manufacturers.
Reading your comment, I am getting the impression that silicone is more flexible than caulk to fill areas where planes change like horizontal and vertical joints. Is that right?
Once, I proposed to an installer to use silicone (like Otto seal S70 from OTTO CHEMIE that I happened to have from recent work in the kitchen) to repair our bathroom and he stated that it was difficult to apply compare to caulk (Keracaulk U from MAPEI). That was odd because he seemed very careful and intended to make a clean caulk application with the help of tape. I did not know better and left it as such. After receiving your reply, I reflect on the fact that most of the bathtub’s perimeter was originally caulked with Keracaulk U and only the horizontal joint region that faces a window between two vertical corners cracked after about 5 months of application and 3 month of shower-use. I always thought that it was due to seasonal changes (late summer to winter) but it could also be that the caulk did not bond well with the tile and tub due to dirt/humidity. In fact, the caulked area around the whole tub is soft to the touch and one of the installer who came to evaluate the repair did not even believe that the area was caulked but I happened to be on site while the first installer was caulking. Does it make sense that the caulk would not perform in the wall area that faces weather changes and endures more mechanical stress?
Now I am wondering whether MAPEI or LATICRETE caulk properly applied around the tub will withstand temperature changes and mechanical stress (this is a 1925-structure that has been gut renovated and as said before, one of the walls around the tub has a window between two nearby corners ) or whether I should place my foot down and ask for a deep silicone application and a second application of silicone on top of it. I don’t know how easy would be to get coloured silicone (OTTO CHEMIE’s silicones are apparently not available in the US) to match the spectra lock pro grout from Laticrete. Could you suggest manufacturers of high quality coloured silicones for bathrooms?
Thank you again for your comments
, carmen
Silicone is more flexible than caulk. Caulk, or acrylic-based sealants, will begin to dry out and get brittle over time. If there is movement it will increase this. Silicone does not dry out. Silicone is more difficult to apply than caulk, but not significantly so. Anyone that has experience and knows what they’re doing will be able to apply silicone. The mapei product you’ve mentioned (keracaulk u) is an unsanded caulk which means that it will shrink significantly. The sanded version won’t shrink as much (that’s why sand is added) but either one is still an acrylic-based product.
I am unfamiliar with the OTTO products you’ve mentioned but I’m assuming they are both simply 100% silicone products? It is very easy to get a 100% silicone to match your spectra lock – laticrete makes it. It’s called Latipoxy and you can read about it here: http://www.laticrete.com/architects/products/caulk/latasil.aspx You should be able to find a dealer near you or a company from which to order it online. If your ‘installer’ lacks the ability to install silicone at the changes of plane you need to not only put your foot down – you need to put it on his ass as you show him the door. If he cannot install silicone correctly he has no business installing tile in my opinion. Find someone that will do what you want done, you know, since you’re paying for it and all.
Thanks Roger and for pointing out the Laticrete product. It is encouraging to hear what to expect from a good installer. Actually I check againt the caulked are and Keracaulk has shrinked instead of cracking. You are absolutely correct about it. Thanks.
Carmen
Roger,
I went through the brochure of Latasil and I found some relevant limitations such as:
1-For perimeter sealing or expansion joint design, the ratio of the joint width to sealant depth should be roughly 2:1
2-Joint width should not exceed 1″ and be narrower than 1/8″
Since the joints between changing planes in our bathroom go from less than 1/16″ (a quarter coin does not fit but a penny goes in loose) to about 1/8″ then it would be almost impossible to keep a 2:1 ratio of width/depth. I was wondering whether decreasing the width/depth ratio will increase the curing time to more than 24 hours and whether the lifetime of the joint will be substantially short.
What I have learnt so far is:
The keracaulk (siliconized acrylic) from MAPEI is more forgiving than the Laticrete as far as the width/depth ratios and one could get away placing one application on top of another in 1/16″ joints as long as it does not exceed 1/4″ of depth. The bad side is that it may shrink/pull from the tiles in the vertical corners near the tub and in part of the perimeter around the tub, both of which suffer quite a bit of expansion/contraction due to the weather.
Both the acrylic and silicone from LATICRETE are more demanding as far as width/ratio (2/1) and it would be impossible to keep that ratio in 1/16″ joints. The good side is that silicone properly applied will resist expansion and contractions and keep their integrity longer than the acrylics.
The worst joints to caulk or siliconize will be the 1/16″ vertical joints and the the 1/8″ perimeter joint which meet the rounded edge of our tub. So I would appreciate your opinion on the following:
3-Would it be wise to use the acrylic caulk from Laticrete in the vertical 1/16″ joint that I could easily re caulk myself?
4-Would it be wise to replace the tiles that meet the tub, increase the joint to 1/4″ and apply silicone from Laticrete?
Thanks a lot
carmen
I believe you are confusing perimeter sealing and expansion joints with what you need. These apply to flooring applications: the perimeter sealing is the space needed between the tile and wall or framing all the way around a floor tile installation and the expansion joints are required in larger flooring installation to compensate for increased expansion needs. You have neither of these. The ratio guidelines are for very large joints such as 3/16″ – 1/4″ or above (for perimeter joints). When using latisil on the corners and changes of plane in your shower you do not need to worry about those. They are in place to prevent people from filling 1/2″ x 3/8″ perimeter or expansion joints and expecting the silicone not to shrink at all or to remain intact through the curing process.
You can use the latisil on all of your changes of plane without replacing any tile or worrying about a width to depth ratio – really.
I do it every day. If the silicone needs to be replaced, which it will eventually (it is not meant to be permanent – none of it is), you can easily replace it yourself. Simply use the Latisil – really.
On a side note: Just a shot in the dark here, but are you or someone in your immediate family an engineer?
Hi Roger
Happy to hear that I don’t have to worry about keeping the ratios during the application of silicone in the joints around my bath tub/shower and thanks for the clarification about perimeters etc.
By the way, in the case of the real perimeter (the 1/6″-1/8″ x 3/8″ joint where the floor meets the wall in our bathroom) I don’t have to worry either about the ratio as long as the joint remains smaller than 3/16″ Is that right?
I was wondering whether you could comment further on the tools to remove the grout.
Please read the first email on your website (carmen March 12, 2011 at 9:20 am).
Thanks a lot Carmen
PS we are scientists
Hi Carmen,
Hmmm, scientists who talk like engineers – stop that! I’m a recovering physicist myself, believe it or not.
The technical reasons for a 2:1 ratio in the perimeter and expansion joints is due to the amount of silicone in the center of a given bead – if it’s too thick the center will not cure at the same rate as the outside of the joint, it will cause the bead to curl and pull away from the tile as the inside cures. It is not usually a problem unless you have very large joints. If your joints are 3/16″ deep and 3/16″ wide you need to apply two beads. Run the first one half the depth of the joint, let it cure, then run the top bead. If you run the entire depth of the joint you have a 1/16″ bead of silicone surrounded by a 1/16″ coat of silicone. The surrounding coating will cure evenly and faster than the interior bead and as it cures it will pull the outside away from the tile.
The oscillating tools I spoke of are available with carbide-tipped round blades which vibrate back and forth in the grout lines to essentially ‘sand’ the grout out of the joints. You can see how they work here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieAum2Xm35E&feature=related That particular tool is the dremel multi-max but all the tools, the fein, bosch, harbor freight version, work identically. It may not be the fastest way, although I can now do that faster than any other method, but it is the absolute safest way to do it while minimizing the chance of chipping the tile.
You were trained as a physicist :-D. Great training! My husband is one of them but left that for programming.
Thanks for all your comments, It seems that the 2/1 ratio allows for homogeneity in the curing process. OK. Since I have 3/16″ x 3/8″, I will have to do it a few times unless I can get in a backer rod. It is great to know from your experience that I need to let it cure before applying more silicone. One needs to be patient.
Thanks for further info about tools for grout removal. It is really a great help to
know what to expect.
Thanks again and sorry about being a pest (I send another email about a horrible looking joint).
Carmen
Hi again
I still have another problem in the bathroom. It is a horrible looking joint where our recently resurfaced bath tub (from 1925) meet the wall’s tiles (4″ x 24″ x 3/8″).
Please take a look at the picture of this link: http://figueirido.net/mltj/images/bathtub01.jpg
During our recent gut renovation, the walls of the bathroom were made or covered using cement backer board. Those 2 corners where the wall meets the bath tub on the left side (please see the picture) are a result of covering the building’s old plumbing. The backer board was placed over the original wood studs and perhaps a new 2 x 4 here and there.
The tile installer applied aqua defense from MAPEI for water protection and Ultraflex LFT from MAPEI to set the tiles. The gap where the tub meets the wall (the wall’s surface is mostly cement board covered with aquadefense or the smooth side of tiles) on its left were filled with ultraflex LFT ( cementitious thin set designed for large format tiles) . The cement surface at the top was slanted to avoid retaining water while showering. Afterwards, the joint between the tiles were filled with grout and then the tub was resurfaced.
To get a better sense of the problem, the dimensions are:
1-The wavy side of the tub has a height of 16″
2-The tiles were tailored to leave a gap of 1/8″-3/16″ against the wavy side of the tub
3-The top of the tub is rounded and the gap increases at the top
4-The length of the cementitious joint at the top is about 6.5″ and the width is roughly 1″
As you can see, the cementitious joint is not only cracked along the side of the tiles but also along the wavy side in some places. The tub has also begun to peel off at the joint.
We have the opinion of a few installers. They only agree about removing cement from the joint, but do not give detail about when and how to repair the tub’s surface.
5-One proposes to rough up the soft side of the relevant tiles and fill the whole gap (3/16″ x 16″ x 6.5″) with epoxy
while placing a temporary a patch of silicone and tape on the wavy side.
6-Other proposes to remove some of the cement from the top and the wavy side and applying epoxy on both the wavy and top surface.
7-Another proposes to remove some of the cement from the top and fill the crack as well as cover the top with Keracaulk. He also proposes to remove some cement from the wavy side to apply Keracaulk in the crack and cover the leftover cement.
8-Another proposes to place new pieces of tile over the tile on the wall and use set/fill the remaining crack with epoxy.
Is there a reasonable way to address this horrible problem?
A way that does not foster the peeling of the tub after repairing it. One that allows me to remove the caulk and re caulk easily without having to clean a large gap. For instance, the application of silicones requires cleaning the gap’s surface with solvents etc and that does not seem an easy task for a gap of 3/16″ x 16″ x 6.5″.
What would you do in this case?
Carmen
Hi Carmen,
To be honest I would rebuild it.
The wall on the left should have been built out enough to hit the flat part of the surface on top of the tub. Either that or a square-edged tub should have been used. I’m not sure how he applied the aquadefense to that gap but the LFT is not waterproof so I hope he at least has the horizontal part covered and waterproofed.
Short of rebuilding it I think the best option would be the epoxy in both those gaps. It’s waterproof and won’t shrink or split. If you want to place new tiles over the old (I’m assuming you are speaking of the wall cutting back along the top edge of the tub) it would significantly reduce that gap and your line along the tub with epoxy won’t be nearly as large.
Hi Roger,
Thanks for being straightforward, but we are at the end of our rope and rebuilding is a big deal here in the city.
I believe the waterproofing was done down to the edge of the tub and we ought to be careful with all the joints between the tub and the wall. Any leak would not only be the beginning of mold in the wall underneath the tile, but also a problem for the apartment below us.
I was reflecting on the epoxy and came up with this:
1-Trimming the ultraflex on the wavy side to allow caulking for cosmetic purposes
2-Filling the thin narrow surface between the cement wonder board and the wavy ultraflex LFT with epoxy (Very concern about applying epoxy within a thin large surface 16″ x 6.5″x 1/16″ and having it bond well, cure properly and last :eek:).
3-tailor a little rectangular piece of tile with a tiny slope and set it on the ultraflex at the top edge of tub. That will look nice and it will not disintegrate like it is happening now.
4-The two joints between the rectangular tailored piece and the corner in the wall will be made 1/4″ to fill it with closed cell backer board and caulk over it.
5-Two joints (from 1/4″ to 1/2″) between the other two sides of the rectangular tailored piece and the top of the tub will be made and caulked.
Does it sound too laborious?
Could you please comment on the brands of epoxy that will be suitable in terms of curing time and having a long lifetime?
One last thing, I am a little confused about whether using epoxy or caulk in the joints between dissimilar surfaces around the walls exposed to the weather. I understood that Spectra lock pro will still crack.
Are you considering other type of epoxy besides the epoxy grout for those joints?
Thanks a lot for all your help
Carmen
It does sound too laborious – but I’m not the one doing it, eh? If that’s what you think will look best there’s no reason not to do it. Spectralock will not crack in that situation, it takes and extreme amount of movement or torque to crack epoxy – it’ll stay wherever you put it in that application. The only place I’ve ever seen it crack is in shower corners in newly built houses when there was extreme movement over time (new houses move considerably in the first year or so).
If you’re using epoxy grout I would also install all those little pieces you’re talking about with the epoxy as well (you can use the epoxy grout as setting material). The LFT is more likely to crack in those areas, or at least let go of the bond to the tile – the epoxy won’t.
Thanks a lot Roger. I am going to think everything over and how to best use the epoxy.
carmen
Roger, we have powdery grout joints (1/16 to 1/8) between rectified porcelain tiles with 3/8″ of depth and we are seeking an installer to remove the ultracolor plus grout and to re grout using spectra lock from Laticrete in both floor and walls. In light of that, we are concerned about the best way to remove at least 3/16″ of the MAPEI grout without damaging the tiles. We have asked the opinion of a couple of installers and one of them stated that the grout can only be removed upmost to 3/16″ without damaging the tiles (matte finish). What type of tool will you recommend? By the way, the tiles do not seem to be beveled.
Thank you Carmen
Hi Carmen,
I would use a fein tool with the grout removal blade. The fein is a vibrating tool with different attachments which works by vibrating the blade back and forth. The fein I have is upwards of about $300 but Harbor Freight has a similar tool available for around $50 and you can get grout removal blades for it.
There are several power tools available to remove grout but most of them are rotary type tools like a dremel and have a good chance of damaging the tile at some point. The vibrating blades greatly reduce that. Rectified porcelain tiles have square edges so they are not beveled which makes it even more difficult to use a rotary tool without damaging them. The fein, or a similar tool, would be the way to go.