There are three basic materials used to set tile.
- Mastic
- Thinset Mortar
- Epoxy
For each installation there is a specific material you should be using. Before you start any tile installation you should ensure that the material you choose is suitable for that application.
Mastic
Mastic is a latex or solvent based adhesive that cures by evaporation. It is sold in airtight containers (buckets) and requires no mixing. It is ready to use immediately. It is suitable only for non-wet applications.
Mastic should never be used for showers or floors! Ever! When mastic gets wet the water will re-emulsify the adhesive base. This means that mastic turns to goo when it gets wet. Goo will not keep your tiles on the wall. Every one of the failed showers that I’ve ever replaced were installed with mastic.
With that said typed, mastic does have its place. It is “stickier” than thinset mortar which is why some prefer to use it – for everything. It should only be used in non-wet areas such as a backsplash, wainscot, or fireplace. An area that is not consistently exposed to water or moisture. It should also only be used on tiles smaller than 6 inches square.
Think about it like this: mastic is stored in a bucket with a lid on it. This keeps it from being exposed to air which would cause it to cure (dry). If you spread it on your wall and place a 12 X 12 inch tile on it, that’s just like putting the lid back on the bucket. It will never fully cure. If any moisture gets behind that tile with the mastic it will eventually re-emulsify and lose adhesion. That means is that your tile is going to fall off the wall.
There is also a product called “premixed thinset adhesive”. This product is pushed as a suitable material with which to set tile – it is not. It is only mastic with sand added to it. While sand does help materials from shrinking as it sets, it does not make mastic suitable for showers or floors.
Thinset Mortar
Thinset mortar is what you need to use for shower walls and floors of any type. It is sold in bags and needs to be mixed with water. Sound simple? It is. Referred to as thinset, mud, mortar, or a number of other things, it is a combination of sand, portland cement, lime, and other stuff that makes it the preferred setting material for elves everywhere.
When mixed properly (read the directions, no, really, read the directions) it is stable, not compromised by water or moisture, and rock solid. Thinset must be mixed with water, allowed to slake, then remixed before use. Slaking refers to letting it set for a specific amount of time to allow the chemicals to interact and become workable.
Thinset cures through a chemical process, not by evaporation. Air is not required for it to set. It will cure in the bottom of a bucket of water, really. This means that no matter the density or type of tile you use it for, it will fully cure. No worries there. The tile will stay where you put it.
Unlike mastic, thinset will not be compromised by water or moisture. If it gets wets the thinset will remain cured and will not be reactivated. It’s similar to your driveway. The concrete on your driveway was mixed with water but it doesn’t turn to mush when it rains. It’s the same stuff.
Thinset mortar will be the correct setting material for nearly every application.
Epoxy
Epoxy is a chemical based glue that cures through chemical interaction. It is almost bulletproof and not user-friendly. To be frank, it’s a pain in the ass. It is usually a two or three part product which, when mixed together, form a very stiff, very thick putty-like substance. When cured it becomes a permanant part of whatever is attached to it. That’s great on the back of the tile, not so much if you get it on the front. Use with care, it is nearly impossible to get off of anything once it’s set.
There are not many applications which require the use of epoxy setting materials. Certain exterior applications need it, swimming pools, certain types of stone and glass tiles. While epoxy can be used for any application, only specific jobs actually require it. It’s expensive. I mean really expensive. If you don’t need to use it, don’t.
If you are unsure whether or not your product or application requires epoxy, just check the manufacturer’s recommendations. If it is required, they will make sure you know about it. You can also ask me, just leave a question in the comments. I’ll reply, I’m a fairly sociable guy when I’m not crawling around on a floor.
Which to use
The general rule of thumb is to use thinset mortar. Unless your specific application requires epoxy, thinset can be used. Anywhere you can use mastic you can use thinset instead. It is more durable, water resistant, and cheaper than mastic anyway. As far as I’m concerned, the only thing mastic is good for is a free bucket.
Big mistake I used thinset on my shower floor I did not grout it yet will epoxy grout help or do have to remove the tile?
Hi Jeri,
Not sure I understand – you’re supposed to use thinset to install your shower floor tile. Do you mean you used thinset to create the shower floor substrate? Epoxy grout will not fix anything wrong with an improperly installed shower floor substrate. It just makes it easier to clean off the mold.
O.k. I’m sorry I used mastic to install the tile will epoxy help with the water getting under the tile it is a guest bathroom and I don’t get alot of them
That needs to be removed and thinset used. While epoxy will limit the amount of water getting beneath the tiles at first, over time the mud bed will be saturated. Once that happens the mastic will re-emulsify (turn to mush). Mastic is not approve for submerged areas, a shower floor is a submerged area – epoxy or not. The re-emulsification is the reason for that. On top of that mastic is an organic-based compound, which means mold can feed on it if it remains wet. If it is on a shower floor it will remain wet. It really should be replaced.
There is a photograph in your latest tile tip entitled “Blocking for your shower doors”. I have a question regarding the portion of the tub deck that is inside the shower stall area.If that area is completly flat, doesn’t water accumulate there, or is it sloped somehow to prevent this.
I normally slope that ever so slightly just enough so water does not collect in there. Normally about 1/16″ or so.
Doesn’t the tile edge sit higher than the tile next to it if it sloped down?
Nope, the edge is the same, the rest of the tile slopes down. The entire row so they all sit evenly. Keep in mind I’m talking about less than 1/16″, you wouldn’t even know it’s there unless you put a level on it.
Thanks!!!
Hey Roger, I’m remodeling a bathroom shower. I’m putting 12 inch tiles on the walls. I was told to start tiling in the center of the wall. One, do I have to start in the center? Two, if I start in the center, what do I do to prevent the tiles from sliding down the wall?
Hi Jesse,
Starting in the center of the wall likely meant the horizontal center of the wall rather than beginning in the corner – not the vertical center between your base and ceiling. You want to do that so you have identically sized cuts in both corners.
I am planning to use 12X24 porcelain tile for both floor and shower. Read somewhere about large tiles might have isssues with ‘crowning’. What does this term mean and how to deal with it….Thanks
Reply
Hi Kevin,
Crowning means the center of the tile is higher than the outside edges of the tile. It is due both to the manner of cooling the heated tiles and purposely integrated to add strength. If you are laying the tile with no pattern it’s not an issue. If you are setting it with a running bond (brick pattern) it causes issues because the lowest part of the tile (the corner) is directly next to the highest (the middle). To compensate for this the TCA’s new standard states that any running bond pattern with large format tiles be offset no more than 1/3 tile rather than 1/2. This simply means rather than putting the edge of a tile at the halfway point of the tile next to it, you only place it 1/3 of the way. This minimizes the cupping or crowning of the tile.
Hello Roger,
Great advice.
I am looking to put 16×16 slate tiles in our back mudroom (small area – 40 sq feet). The floor joists are 12 in on centre with 3/4″ T&G plywood glued and screwed.
My questions:
do I need to have anything down other than a plwood-adhering thinset?
do I need to seal the slate prior to grouting with a follow-up seal later?
Many thanks,
Doug
Hey Doug,
You’ll need an additional layer of 1/2″ plywood over that as well as a proper material as your tile substrate. The subfloor needs to be a minimum of 1 1/4″ and tile should NEVER be installed directly to plywood. Once you have the additional ply on there you can use products like 1/4″ or 1/2″ backerboard, ditra, or a number of other tile substrate materials.
Sealing your slate prior to grout makes it tremendously easier to clean up the grout. Sealing afterwards adds a thicker sealer layer to the slate as well as sealing the grout.
I am planning to use 12X24 porcelain tile for both floor and shower. Read somewhere about large tiles might have isssues with ‘crowning’. What does this term mean and how to deal with it….Thanks
So everything is going well so far, I put down a floor warming system and I think I may have to use a floor leveler. Are you familiar with floor leveling and if so do you have any tips or a brand recommendation ?
Thanks in advance, you’ve been extremely helpful with all of your answers.
– Ken
Hey Kenny,
On the rare occasion I use SLC I always use Laticrete. The different ones I’ve used all work well provided you follow the directions exactly. Be sure to block off the entrance, any vents and place an expansion strip around the perimeter.
I need to even up my bathroom floor and not level it. The floor has a 1/2″ dip in the middle of a 9’x10′ floor with a slope of 1 1/2″ down at the door. I’ve applied 1/2″ pts plywood over 3/4″ fir flooring that was put down in 1934 when the house was built. I’d like to know if there is a product that is slow setting to apply on the plywood for tiling.
Hi Larry,
Why would you want a slow setting thinset? If you’re planning on installing directly to the plywood you NEED to have 1/8″ expansion gaps between sheets, it NEEDS to be perpendicular to the fir flooring, and you NEED to prevent thinset from getting into those expansion gaps. The thinset you need to use has to be approved for tile installation directly to plywood.
Hi there! I am wanting to lay porcelain tile in our mudroom. Currently there is linoleum that was placed over concrete. Is it possible to lay the tile over the linoleum without having to remove the old linoleum? The linoleum is in good shape except it is missing in 2 very small spots….we bought Mapei ultra flex 2 thinset at Lowe’s. Wondered if this would work over the linoleum?
Thanks in advance
Hi there!
It depends on the coating on the linoleum. If it’s shiny you’ll need to scarify that to remove the shininess. If it’s shiny it’ll have problems with the thinset sticking to it. It also depends, of course, on how well the linoleum is adhered. Any installation is only as good as what’s beneath it. That decision is entirely yours – I can’t see it from here.
I believe ultraflex II will work in that application, but to be sure I’d check Mapei’s website. I always remove the linoleum so I’m not sure what works and what won’t. I do know manufacturers do make thinsets for that application.
Ok, hopefully this is the last question I have.
So I have the sanded grout for my tile, the tile I have is natural stone and a bit pricey,
The Finish is a very shiny, almost glass like, is it best to use the sanded grout or will it
Scratch the tile when I grout, what is your professional recommendation ?
My professional recommendations is always this: Test the grout on a spare piece of tile first. Always.
There are so many different grouts with different sand and different stones that the only way to guarantee the grout will not scratch it is to actually test the grout with the stone. I do use sanded grout 95% of the time on natural stone, but I still always test it.
I have a concrete bathtub and wanted to get some tile and break it up and apply it to the inside of the tub floor and wall to make a mosaic. Do I have to use epoxy? If so how should it be used?
Hi Angie,
I’m assuming your concrete bathtub is already waterproofed? You would be best off using epoxy to ensure proper adhesion. It can be used and troweled on just like regular thinset.
Im installing natural stone, what is the common gap between tiles. I was told 1/4″ but it seems a bit large to me, but i could be wrong. im installing 12′ tiles, about 70 total. 1/4″ or 3/16″ ? what do you recommend ?
Hi Kenny,
With natural stone (with a square edge) I normally use 1/16″ or 1/8″. 1/4″ is absolutely huge – don’t do that.
And that makes perfect sense to me, one last question; if I’m
using an 1/8″ gap, should I be using non-sanded grout? There
Seems to be a little controversy over this, my professional tile center
gave me sanded, Irish cream grout when I’ll be using an 1/8″ gap.
Could they have given me the wrong grout?
You can use either sanded or unsanded in a 1/8″ grout line. Sanded grout shrinks less and is normally a better option. I use sanded grout in everything 1/16″ and larger. The 1/8″ will be no problem at all.
I am installing a thin App. 1.5 x .25 x 5 feet marble threshold on top of tile base at the entrance to a handicaped shower. It will be rolled over by wheel chairs. Someone suggested to me to use epoxy. If so what type?
Latapoxy 310 made by Laticrete is the only kind I use. I’ve never found ANYTHING it won’t adhere to anything else – even, and especially, the stuff you don’t want it to.
I previously asked a question about sub flooring, however; now I have actually begun the work and have a question.
I’ve removed my vanity, began removing the linoleum and found that the builder has used 1/4″ lauan over 3/4″ ply, so it goes as so, 3/4″ ply then lauan then linoleum. Should I remove the lauan and install concrete board or ditra, or should I remove the linoleum only and then install the ditra over the lauan? If I were to remove the lauan it would allow me to add a few screws to the wood to help prevent creaking and it would lower the floor by
A 1/4″ as well.
Hey Kenny,
Yup, get rid of the luan. It has no business anywhere near a tile installation – it isn’t stable enough.
Dear Floor Elf,
i recently tiled from my bathtub up to re-surface the shower stall. I used hardibacker board, waterproof mortar, and some really nice 3×6 tiles with a 1/8 gap. Unfortunately I’m a do it yourself homeowner and followed the instruction of my friend who is a contractor. Obvious now is that he left off the part where you put up a vapor barrier. Apparently a critical step. At this point I have all the tiles up but no mortar in the gaps. Tiles are glazed.
Any suggestions short of starting over? Epoxy Mortar?
Thanks,
Ben
Hey Ben,
No such animal as ‘waterproof mortar’. Epoxy grout will slow the water from getting behind the tile, but won’t prevent it totally. Since you used hardi you are a lot better off and your shower may last a very long time. Be sure, however, to keep a close eye on it in places such as the drywall directly outside of the tub, any loose tiles, etc. Anything that would indicate excessive water in your wall cavity.
Hello,
I’m going to remove the existing linoleum from my bathroom and install
Either ceramic or stone tile. My question is; can I remove the existing product
And thinset over the wood or do I need a membrane or a more sturdy material
To be put down first, it’s a small area but alot of the tile would need to be cut
Due to the angle of the room. The house is about 8 years old, so I assume there are
1×6 or 8 with 3/4″ ply. I’m also assuming most of the settlement has already
Occurred.
Thanks
P.S. iPhone auto correct sucks….
Hey Kenny,
You need to have some sort of proper substrate to adhere the tile to. That can be cement backerboard or a sheet membrane such as ditra, the plywood is not it. Even 1/4 backerboard with thinset beneath it will be 100% better than attempting to adhere it to the plywood and have it last.
Hi, I have 14 ceramic tiles that were cracked and which I chiseled out. I have warming wires in my floor and some of them are now exposed. I tested the floor and it still warms up so I didn’t damage any wires while chiseling out the damaged tile. What I have now is thinset which I can’t get off due to embedded wires in the thinset and several gouges in the floor from some of the thinset coming off. Do I even the gouges with regular thinset and then apply a light skim coat to the new 14 tiles with epoxy thinset, because in some of the locations, the old thinset is high and I can’t apply very much thinset to the new tiles or else I will be higher than the rest of the tiles.
I talked to several tile people and I get all kinds of different anwers. Please give me your suggestions, you have given people very good answers on this site.
Hi John,
The epoxy will work but you should first figure out the reason they cracked in the first place. If it has something to do with your substrate (which is likely) you may end up having the same problem with the new tile.
We have a cabin in MN and we do not heat it in the winter time, so everything in the cabin gets below freezing. Should we not install tile? Or if we do, is there something we should do differently than a normal tile install?
Hey Nick,
Tile won’t be a problem at all. The only thing you need to make sure of is that you use a thinset recommended for freeze/thaw (exterior) conditions. It will state that on the bag and/or on the manufacturer’s website. As long as you have expansion joints and perimeter joints (very, very important) you won’t have any problems with it at all.
Hi Roger,
Just wondering I am doing a kitchen backsplash it will be 3″ x 6″ beige glass subway tile and 12″ x 12″ panels of slate and small glass tiles on a mesh back installed on sheetrock. What would be your recomendation on setting material?
Thanks Dennis
Hey Dennis,
I would use Laticrete 253 silver or 254 platinum in white for that. You want a high-quality white thinset with the glass – it will work for the slate as well.
We just finished laying a cermic tile floor and it was brought to our attention that on our thin set motar we were supose to add adhevise but we just added water to the thin set and no adhevise, do we need to pull up all the tiles and start over?
Hey Laura,
Regular unmodified thinset can always be mixed with an ‘admix’ or latex polymer – I believe that’s what you are talking about. It does not, however, normally mean that it MUST be mixed with that. It simply turns your unmodified into a modified. To give you a more precise answer I would need to know exactly what brand and type of thinset you used. But as a general rule – no, you do not need to remove it and start over. You simply have unmodified thinset under your tile – which is just fine.
Hi roger,
I have Laticrete Mega Bond thin set motar, which reads on the bag :
For installing all types of ceramic tile and stone, fortify with lactierete, mega bond
additive for enhanced performance. Also reads for best results mix with mega bond additive.
there is instructions on the back which says for interior use and exterior use, the last line says
must mix with additive, but not sure if they mean interior or exterior.I did go back to Lowes
and talked to the manager, because they are the ones who suggested this thin set motar for
me, and he did not say we needed additive, but after talking to the manager and another person
in flooring they were unsure also , I did have to remove a couple of tiles and when doing so came up
easy, there was one that when removed part of the cement board came up also , so not sure what to do
at this point .
If it does indeed say ‘must’ mix with additive then it is for exterior applications with weather exposure. Portland cement (the base of all thinsets) fully cures in 28 days. Anytime after that if you remove a tile it will either come up in pieces or the cement board will come with it. Mega bond is good stuff and, if installed properly, will adhere your tile just fine when mixed with only water. While the admix would have been ideal for your situation, it will hold just fine with just the water mix.
Thank You for all your help,and answering back so quickly, It’s good to know I don’t have to pull up the floor. after having to do both the family roon and kitchen, It would have been over whelming
to have to start over with family room, for the kitchen I made sure I got the thin set motar that just calls for water. once again Thank You
Roger,
I have a few questions regarding thinset on floors and walls.
I am using 16″ x 16″ limestone, and someone, somewhere – who seemed to have more experience than I do with stone (i.e., I’ve only done stone tiles once in a small powder bath but have tiled with ceramic tiles a fair number of times on some pretty large floors) – told me it is best to pre-seal the top surface of the limestone prior to setting it in thinset. The claim was that because the stone is very porous, any thinset gotten on the upper surface of the limestone will be hard to clean off of unsealed limestone unless gotten to right away, and even then, it might stain the stone and/or get into some of surface imperfections of the stone and be hard to remove completely. As I have once or twice gotten thinset on a ceramic tile or two while working (but only once or twice!) and – because of the tile’s glaze – had no difficulty cleaning it off, even fairly long afterward, I can sort of see the logic to this. In my (limited) experience, stone sealer has a tendency to make the surface of the stone slicker and more stain resistant, sort of like the glazed surface of a ceramic tile. Though it will add some time to the job, I’m so late on completing this bath remodel already, I really don’t think the wife will care at this point, but I am not a big fan of doing extra work, either, so… What do you say?
The second question is more regarding the type of thinset to apply for setting limestone. I see a type of material that is labelled as being for marble and stone, so this is what I was planning on using. Opinion?
Next, I have heard that it is best to use a white thinset for stone as regular grey thinset can darken the stone. Since I want the stone to be as light colored as possible, I was going to try to make sure to use white thinset. Is this necessary?
Finally, two questions relating to the thickness of the thinset I need to apply for my limestone. I’ve normally used a smaller 1/4″ x 1/4″ notched trowel for my ceramic tile work (never bigger than 12″ x 12″ tiles), and even for the stone in the small powder bath (it was 12″ x 12″ sheets of smaller stones on backing material). For the 16″ x 16″ limestone, I see varying opinions of what size notched trowel to use, and do have a 1/2″ x 1/2″ one I bought once and have never used. What would you recommend? I am pretty sure the floor and shower walls are reasonably level and plumb (I used an SLU on the floor after removing the old 12″ x 12″ ceramic tile I put down years ago, and I built the new walls and applied hardibacker on them using very straight 2x4s and a 4″ level).
Depending on the answer above, I have a follow-on question: How thick is the resulting shower wall going to be, i.e., what is a pretty accurate estimate for the combined thickness of the hardibacker + Red Gard + thinset + tile once I have set the tile on the shower walls? In one of those sort of catch-22 things I have run into in this project, I need to know the thickness of the combined hardibacker, Red Gard, thinset, and tile construction in order to mount the shower valve correctly in the newly constructed shower wall. The instructions for the valve say that it must be mounted so that the plaster guard on the valve is flush with the surface of the tile, but since I need to mount the valve BEFORE I apply the hardibacker, Red Gard, thinset, and tile (with the appropriately shaped and sized hole for the valve, of course), I don’t really know this yet. Also, I can’t get behind the wall the valve needs to be in after the tiling is done since the wall it will be on precludes this without destroying a finished wall on the other side of it. I am getting a little ticked at the whole valve thing as I already had to create a specially carved up 2 x 4 to mount the valve on between the shower wall studs to make the thing mount in a solid and secure way. The valve has an odd shape (it is a Moentrol pressure/temperature regulated valve) which I couldn’t figure any other way to mount securely using the mounting screw holes that it has built into it
. Not exactly what I would call user-friendly!
Anyway, any help or advice on all my questions will be, as always, much appreciated.
small typo above – meant 4′ level, not 4″ – that would be one small level….
Hey Tim,
Sealer on the face of the tile isn’t going to make any difference in how it reacts to the thinset beneath it. It will, however, prevent the grout from getting in the pores of the surface and will assist (a LOT) in the grouting process. Limestone should be sealed – always – at some point in the installation process. Whether it is before or after installation is entirely up to you. The easiest and quickest would be to install it, then seal, then grout. Simply keep a bucket of water and a sponge handy when installing and wipe off any thinset as you get it on there – don’t let it cure. It’ll wipe right off.
Absolutely use white thinset. If it is made specifically for stone (and/or marble – which is a stone ???
) then you’ll be fine. But use the white version – it is necessary.
If your substrates are completely flat then you can use a 3/8″ x 3/8″ trowel. The 1/4″ is way too small. The 1/2″ would be a better option, it allows more play to get the tiles just right.
Don’t know which size hardi you have but the redgard will add about 1/16″, a 3/8″ trowel would be 3/16″ or a 1/2″ trowel would be 1/4″, plus the height of your tile. Any shower valve normally has about 1/4″ depth of play, which means you can be up to 1/4″ off with the flush measurements. I don’t know if yours does or not, but most do. Your depth (or height on the floor) would be the size of your backer + the size for whichever trowel you’ll use above + 1/16″ (redgard) + the thickness of your stone.
Roger,
So, my never-ending bath remodel is getting down to the final step, which turns out to be the shower, since I was using the 4′ x 6′ area it will cover as my ‘sawing booth’ for the tile and the trim, etc. Since it was all lined in HardiBacker, all the spray from my tile wet saw, and most of the sawdust from my table and chop saws didn’t hurt anything there.
I cut the trench for the trench drain into the slab last weekend with a 6′ diamond blade on an angle grinder (what a mess! even with a reasonably tight dust booth I constructed to contain the dust, it still managed to escape a bit into the bathroom and adjacent bedroom), and the drain fits perfectly. I tested the drain I constructed outside the shower and it drains well, and I plan to test the drain and the arm that leads to the old/existing drain standpipe in combination to make sure the slope I have for the arm portion is sufficient – it ought to be as it is sloped > 1/4″ per foot and is as large as the old drain pipe. Once that is done, I will cement it in place permanently.
Regarding what I have left to do, I have a few final questions:
1) What would you recommend I use to set the trench drain and the connecting arm into the slab with? I was considering thinset or SLU cement, but am open to other suggestions.
2) Once I complete the above, and then build my mud bed (in my case, one sloped uniformly 1″ down from the back wall to the front of the trench drain I will have set in – a pretty easy thing to do, I think), apply my Red Gard with all the appropriate change of plane fabric, # of coats, etc., what order is recommended to set the tiles, i.e., floor tiles first and then walls, or the other way around? My guess would be floor then walls, but I’d like confirmation.
3) In thinking about the future, in case the shower drain ever gets clogged, I planned to make the tile over the connection between the arm and the existing drain a little more easily removable so the existing drain line can be accessed for clearing. It shouldn’t ever happen since I plan on always using replaceable screen strainers inside the trench drain over the exit, much like I used to use in the old shower drain that kept it clear for the last 15 years.
My idea is to hook the arm from the trench drain to the existing drain together with a sanitary tee, where the top of the tee will have a threaded plug adapter with a plug in it, the side of the tee will be connected to the arm from the trench drain, and the bottom of the tee will be hooked to the existing drain line. The drain ‘box’ built into the slab originally will be, as in the old drain, filled with sand, covered with a thin layer of concrete, and of course the mud bed, thinset and a tile (in my situation, there is one 16″ x 16″ tile pretty much directly over the connection box – sometimes you get lucky!). BUT – instead of using grout around this tile, I was considering using the matching caulk that is made to coordinate with my chosen grout. That way, if a clog ever does develop, I thought I could reasonably easily remove the caulk, break out the tile without breaking adjacent tiles, cut through the thinset, mud and concrete, get into the drain box, unscrew the plug, and have access to the drain line. Is this a good idea or overkill?
So, once I get answers to these few remaining puzzlers, I will be able to wrap up this project. The only thing I am also still needing to do is to build the Shoji-style sliding doors for the closets, but I didn’t think this was the place to discuss that, and I don’t think I need any help there, anyway – I have the carpentry/cabinetry skills up to that task!
Hey Tim,
1. I always use regular thinset for linear drains as most manufacturers recommend.
2. With a topical membrane it is always best to do the floor first to protect the waterproofing. After installed you can stomp all over it all you want.
3. It’s always a good idea to have cleanout access for a drain. However, if you do want that it’s also always best to have it in an area where you won’t need to remove tile to access it. While your idea will work just fine, if you do need access to it you will also be compromising the waterproofing when you remove that tile.
Roger,
Thanks for the answers.
I hear you re: the possible damage to the waterproofing – but this is just a (hopefully) worst case scenario option to make it so I don’t have to destroy my whole shower floor in the unlikely case that I develop a really nasty clog. Luckily, even if I needed to use my ‘access hatch,’ the new shower configuration has most of the water happening well away from the old drain stand pipe location and uphill from the linear drain, so maybe the amount of water seeping through to any repair will be minimal enough to keep things from going downhill in the even I do need to get in there.
But, as I said, once I wised-up and started using a screen strainer in my old shower drain, for the nearly 15 years since, I haven’t had any issues. Unless my wife goes bald, though, I think I will always need to have a strainer of some type to catch the hair, soap scum, and other assorted goop before it goes down the drain. When I use one, things seem to work out O.K. In the first few years of living here in Austin (before the wising-up period re: the strainer below the shower grate), the limestone/calcium in the water here – in combination with the above-mentioned stuff getting into the drain – produced some almost rock-like clogs I had to spend many unpleasant hours chipping away at with long, stiff wires, etc. to get out of the drain once I removed the grate. Where we came from before, the water was softer and I never once had a clog, which is why I didn’t start out immediately using a strainer below the shower grate here.
Anyway, just to be prepared for the worst-case scenario, what would be the best way to repair any damage to the Red Gard be if I needed to breach it? I can make the hole through this layer pretty small because I can accurately record the exact stand pipe location. I was considering placing a piece of old-school PVC shower pan liner or some other material (suggestions welcome) on top of the Red Gard under that one tile right over where the drain is so the thinset could be gotten off that area without damaging the waterproofing elsewhere. Of course, I’d still have to get most of the old thinset off under the rest of the tile once any clog was taken care of in order to replace the tile securely, so… not sure if that approach buys me much.
Thoughts? Thanks again.
If you do what you are planning it won’t do any good at all to place anything between the redgard and tile. If you pull that tile up, at the very least, all the redgard beneath it is going to peel up. You would need to apply more redgard beneath that area and make sure you have a solid contact with the existing membrane all the way around it to replace that tile once removed.
sorry, I must have hit the wrong button. Is the dog flaming yet?
here’s what I think I need to do. Could you correct me if I’m wrong?
First — cut about 1 inch of wall board off at the bottom of the wall all around the room to prevent it from wicking up moisturel.
over solid, flat 3/4 inch plywood:
1) apply cement board following your instructions for all areas not to be covered by an electric radiant heating pad. (leave gaps between the boards and around the walls, tape the cracks).
2) areas where the heating pad goes. install that directly over the plywood and top with self leveling cement so it’s even with the top of the cement board
— do you put spacers that you pull out to leave an expansion gap between the cement board and the SLC? Do you put something to prevent the SLC from going up against the wall to create an expansion pad
3) once the SLC dries, apply Red Gaurd to the whole surface, and run tape around all the wall edges up the wall sill plate sticking it on with and covering it with RedGaurd. (is this correct? I think this is what my friend did to water proof around the edges of the room)
4) my big question … I have a fiberglass all in one shower/bath enclosure. I’m not certain how to handle the line where the tub meets the tile. Is it just a line of caulk keeping the water out of the subfloor? Makes me nervous.
5) cut the pipe for the toilet even with the top of the backer board (this was a question I had — this is what my friend said to do. Does it vary by manufacturer? Do you tape up the siide of the toilet drain piper? leave a gap around the pipe?
Thanks
6)
Not sure what happened to the email that I thougth was sent by mistake. I’m asking aboug installing a simple, basic bathroom floor.
one more question … I’m planning on putting in a stone threshold at the door to keep any water spills from getting out into the carpet in the next room. How do I handle the joint between the stone threshold and the tile?
Great information. I also have a reditile pan (and also an in-wall soap shelf) and am dreading the use of epoxy. I used MAPEI AquaDefense roll-on for the hardiboard walls, and was hoping to roll the AquaDefense over the polyurethane pan and soap shelf (to then be able to use thinset over it, instead of epoxy). But the MAPEI advice line said it won’t adhere to polyurethane.
Another idea — could I put down the epoxy on the pan and shelf, let dry, and then use thinset over the dried epoxy? Basically, I’m looking for any ideas to avoid trying to doing the tile with epoxy. (PS I’m very competent with thinset, but have never used epoxy and am dreading it.)
Any other suggestions? I understand the epoxy has a very short work time, so I’ll have to have all the tiles precut and ready to lay.
Thanks,
Hey Mike,
Nothing to fear – really! If you’re a bit leary about it just take the epoxy and split the components in half and only use 1/2 at a time. Have your tiles cut and ready. It’s not nearly as hard as most people think. If you’re fine with thinset you should be fine with the epoxy. Nothing is gonna stick to that pan and niche except epoxy. Thinset will not stick to cured epoxy. You need to use the epoxy. It’s fairly painless – really.
Roger — thanks for the quick response and confidence boost. I’ll give the epoxy a shot this weekend!
Roger,
Good scoop! Question: I have a shower pan from tile-redi that requires an epoxy for the tile setting… comes with the kit. I guess I need to use the epoxy on the pan floor, but would like to use thinset for the “walls” for all the reasons you mention above. I have applied a liquid membrane all over the shower walls and over about half of the pan-walls, which are about 5 inches high. I know I can use thinset over the membrane…
So, can I use the thin set for the entire wall surface starting at the pan floor, or should I use expoxy for (at least) the first row of tile up the walls?
Much Thanks!
Hey Mario,
As long as you have the membrane all the way to the floor over the tile-redi pan sides you can use thinset to set all your wall tile. Make sure to use epoxy on the curb – do not cover that with the membrane and use thinset – you need to use epoxy there.
Thanks, Brother… much appreciated!
Hey Roger,
Is it necessary to mix in any additive to the thinset mortar to help the tile stick better to the shower walls?
Hi Brian,
Modified thinsets are made with what is called re-dispersable polymers. That’s just a big fancy term for powdered latex (or other) additive. When you buy a modified thinset the additive is already in there and the water activates it when you mix it with just water. You can get unmodified thinset and mix it with the liquid polymer if you choose – it’s just an extra step. If you do this use the same brand of both (made for each other). No real need to, though, you end up with essentially the same thing.