Another request from one of my readers, this time concerning weep holes. As you may know I answer every question I’m asked here on my site when I sober up get home from work. I have tried to explain in the comments section several times where to create weep holes in a tub or shower (acrylic base) tile installation and now realize it’s a difficult thing to do with words.
So when Kurt asked me to clarify exactly where they go a stroke of genius hit me! (Yeah, I’m slow sometimes) I have pictures. Well, not exactly pictures of the weep holes themselves, but I can at least let you know where they are.
When you have a tub which does not have specific spaces for a weep hole you need to ‘create’ them in your caulk line. Let me back up here a second and explain what weep holes are and why you need them.
A weep hole is basically an open space which allows moisture that makes its way behind the tile a space from which to dissipate. This is the spot that moisture can run out. When moisture gets behind your tile it will always end up at the bottom of your wall (tile installation). When it gets there it needs some place to go – to get out from behind the tile and into the tub or shower basin. That’s what the weep hole is.
Some tubs, and most acrylic shower basins, have these built into them. There is a spot about 3/4″ long that dips down from the plane of the edge and back up. It’s a dip in the edge of the tub or shower basin. When equipped with these built-in weep holes – DO NOT FILL THEM WITH CAULK! Everyone does that – they are there for a reason and no one seems to know what it is. They are weep holes. If you caulk them in it defeats the purpose of them – that will seal in the moisture.
If the moisture is sealed in behind the tile it has no place to dissipate and will simply sit there. Beyond that, the level of that moisture will continue to build with every use. The moisture cannot dissipate at the same rate that is gets back there. That’s gonna lead to a problem. You need weep holes to eliminate the moisture.
When you caulk or silicone the change of plane between the tile and tub you should leave an open space – a space without caulk – in each side wall about an inch out from the back wall. If you click on that little bitty picture to the right you will see two pretty pink lines on it – that’s where those spots are.
Each of these spots are about an inch long (this doesn’t need to be exact) and contain no grout, caulk or silicone – they are simply open space. These are your weep holes.
These spaces will allow moisture to dissipate. These do not need to be the lowest spots on the tub. In other words, if your tub is not entirely level and those spots are not the lowest, it doesn’t matter. The water will end up there and run out – it is the only space to release the pressure the water will build up. It’s a whole physics thing and I haven’t had enough beer Pepsi to properly explain it – but that’s what happens. And yes, you can put them wherever you want, that’s simply where I put them.
When you have an acrylic or fiberglass shower basin without built-in weep holes the same technique applies. Depending on how your tile and shower door lay out you may choose to put the weep holes toward the front of the basin, entirely up to you.
If you click the photo of the shower to the right, and ignore the fuzzy toilet seat cover, you will see the two pretty pink lines in the back as well as pretty blue lines toward the front. That’s where I put them when I don’t put them in the back. They sometimes look better toward the front if there is a shower door there – the frame will make the weep holes less noticeable.
That’s it – longer than I expected but much easier than trying to explain with just words. If you have a question or just need something clarified do not hesitate to let me know! My blog is here to help you and the fact that I do this stuff every day will, at times, blind me to certain basic things. I do a lot of this stuff without even thinking about it and don’t realize that what is basic to me is not basic to you. If you want a post about a specific subject just let me know in the comment section of any of my posts or shoot me an email at Roger@FloorElf.com. Or, you know, send up smoke signals from your dogs back – he may have just burst into flames again. 
There you go Kurt, tell mom you win this one and she owes you a six-pack.
UPDATE: I finally got off my ass and actually took some photos of weep holes in the silicone bead around a tub. These are what I’ve described above and can be used in either a tub or a shower base. There is one on each side of the tub towards the front.
Great site, and way more fun to read than actually tiling. I’ve spent most of the day reading your info and yelling out to my husband all the things he should be doing to remodel our kids’ bath. Anyway, about the weep holes. Doesn’t it allow mold to grow behind the tiles? I’m not saying I don’t clean often, but if sometimes I don’t get around to it…
Thanks.
Hi Deborah,
No because they shouldn’t have standing water in them at all. Every time you use the shower it will cause water to run out of them. This will seriously diminish the possibility of mold growing – along with regular cleaning it will eliminate it. If they were not there you would nearly guarantee mold growth since you would have standing water (in your substrate) without the ability to clean it.
Hi Roger,
One more question for you and then hopefully I am DONE!
My shower floor is going to be river rock which has been cut flat on the bottom. The wall tile is already on. Since moisture is supposed to run down behind the tile into the drain, do I silicone caulk the wall/floor corner too? Won’t this block the moisture from getting to the drain?
Any “all-knowing” suggetions on installing and grouting the rock?
You should just write a book and be done with it. I know a good ghost writer.
Many thanks.
Hi Kathy,
Yes, you should silicone that plane change as well. It will only block the water if you stuff silicone in there all the way back to the membrane – don’t do that.
Most caulk or silicone beads will only seal to about the back of the tile unless you are actively attempting to fill it all the way back into the wall cavity.
I am writing a book – actually seven ebooks, I’m just really, really slow because I don’t have a lot of time to write – I’m busy playing with tile.
Roger,
I’ve got a master shower with a cement slab. I had to bust up part of the slab around the drain to repair/replace the old drain and pipe beneath it. Dry fitting my new drain base I realized that it isn’t going to be level with the floor. It’s currently sitting about 1/2″ to an inch below the floor, is this an issue? Do I need to extend it up to be level with the floor before I cement it in?
Thanks,
Justin
Hi Justin,
You do need to raise that to about 1/2″ ABOVE the cement floor. You need the extended 1/2″ to compensate for your mud deck at the drain. (You ARE installing a mud bed and don’t plan on using the concrete for your shower floor – right?)
Thanks, Roger.
Yes. I am installing a mud bed. Unfortunately the reason I’m redoing the shower is because of a leaky pan. Whoever did it before didn’t have a pre-slope they did it directly on the slab. Along with that there was no vapor barrier. So here I am attempting to correct what someone else screwed up.
Welcome to my life.
You need to find a way to get paid for that.
Hi Roger. I have a question about bullnose tile. I’ve installed tiles vertically on the inside & outside of the shower curb. The top of the curb will have sliding shower doors. I’m planning on using bullnose tiles on both sides of the top of the curb (will require additional tile between them to make-up how thick the curb is). Do I place the bullnose directly on the vertical tiles that are on the inside & outside of the curb, or do I leave a grout line here (or does it really matter?)
Thanks again!
Hey Dave,
It doesn’t really matter. Normally I place the bullnose directly onto the side tiles – which, by the nature of the manufacturing process, will leave about a 1/16″ grout line there anyway – then I grout it. You get the best of both worlds!
Now I am confused and scared.
I am at the point of putting up the cement board. and here I read about weep holes.
So when I put up the cement board and the put the silicone seal between my shower *cast iron* pan that is going to go all the way around.
Then I am going to tile the cement board and then I should leave 4 separate small (1″) places with no caulk ?
Wont water get into them?
I won’t put sealant on it either right? this seems to contradict everything. I want to make sure I do this right.
Thank you,
Hi Anita,
I’m assuming that you have a vapor barrier behind your cement board? If so then you do not need to silicone around the bottom of the walls, simply silicone the back of the barrier to the tub/shower flange. If you are using a topical membrane you would silicone around the base of the cement board and leave weep holes in the finished silicone or grout line for the tile.
You basically want open channels from your waterproofing, whichever method, into the tub or pan. Your waterproofing method dictates where and how many weep holes you need. If I’ve just confused you more please let me know. Water does not run into weep holes, it runs out. Regardless of that fact, your weep holes only run to your waterproofing, not beyond.
Oops I forgot! I am putting up RedGard painting it on top of cement board, so as per your instructions no water barier under the cement board. I am right no?
You are right. Silicone at the base of the wall between the cement board and shower base then paint your redgard all the way down to the base (over the silicone). Then you will leave two weep holes, one on each end of the shower, to let water which has migrated back behind your tile to run down the redgard and out into the tub. Make sense? The silicone bead around the base of the wall does not get weep holes, it is completely sealed.
Hi Roger,
You’ve helped me on another post thread and thank you for that. We are currently renting a new construction home. We feel pretty certain backer board was used. We don’t know what kind if any vapor barrier was used (recently talked with a rep from a national building chain and they don’t use a vaopr barrier at all but agreed to for us they build for us).
We have made the mistake of chaulking all around the base where the tiled wall meets the tub and have been in the house a year. How can we correct this and how much damage might have been done? Do we just pull the chaulking out?
This shower is not one we use daily. Our other shower is a stand up with a tile floor and undertand there is no need for weep holes, though questioning if a vapor barrier was used for this one as well. Small local bbuilder I may need to contact about that.
are there other places in bathrooms that weep holes are used? We chaulked around “missing” grout or chaulk (depends on location) around the toilets and where the tile floor meets the tub.
Lastly, trying not to make this too long.. when tiling bathroom floors or any tile floor where there will be moisture, do you tile over waterproof substrate of some sort? I read where you posted about a kerdi product. Are there others? Would redgaurd work and then how do you manage the wter between tile potential? Do you make weep holes in the grout in floor tiles?
Thank you for this great resource!
Hi Robin,
Just pull the caulk out of that area and recaulk with the proper weep hole spots. Since it is not used every day, it’s over backerboard and it’s only been a year or so you shouldn’t have any problems in that shower. It takes a while to completely saturate everything.
Showers and tubs are normally the only areas weep holes are used. When I caulk around a toilet I leave about two inches in the back open so if there’s a leak it shows up on the floor before completely destroying all the floor joists. If it is caulked all the way around you won’t notice it until you fall through the floor.
You normally don’t need to have a waterproof barrier beneath your floor tile. You can if you want to, and yes – redgard will work, but it isn’t necessary. The only time weep holes are required is when floors see a large amount of water. On a bathroom floor where a little bit of water gets on the floor it will end up evaporating – so no real need to provide weep holes or anything else.
Good Day Roger,
All is moving along well, thanks to your help.
I am ready to start tile.
!. I notice my shower drain a a bit out of level. Tile is not going to set evenly around it. I am considering using a tile square ring to smooth out the transition. Do you have any other suggestions?
2. I’d like to set the shower floor tile first, then overlap with the wall tile. Floor is 2″, wall tile is 12″. Seems this would be a cleaner look.
Thnaks,
Paul
Hey Paul,
The only other suggestion I would have would be to fix the vertical pipe coming out of the p-trap so that it’s level. Other than that a square frame is likely your best bet.
That’s normally the way I do it. I agree, I think it looks cleaner.
What a wonderful resource you are. All great info. I do have a question.
I’m redoing a small 5 x 8 bathroom. I removed the old tub & surround, and am replacing with a shower only. I’m making a custom pan (concrete w/ sloped top, liner, overlayment of concrete). 1/2″ hardi on the walls. Will coat with Laticrete (thanks for the tip on this one) and no plastic behind the hardi.
How far from the pan should the hardi backerboard start? What should I fill the gap with, and how do I create the “weep holes”? (never heard of these before, but thanks to you I now do). Want to do it right (would need more brew than my fridge can store if I have a moistrue build up & problems down the road).
Any advice would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance!
Hey Dave, (Congratulations! You are the 1000th Dave to ask me a question!
)
You can start the backer about 1/16″ to 1/8″ from the top of the pan and fill that gap with 100% silicone. What you are doing is simply creating a barrier so the backer does not wick water up from the pan (yes, they wick water). When you install your Laticrete paint it down over that bead of silicone all the way to the floor. This way you have absolutely no gaps in your waterproofing layer on the wall to the pan.
When using a topical membrane like the Laticrete (you didn’t say which one – hydroban?) you do not need weep holes around the base of your shower. That is only for showers and tubs with acrylic bases. In a site-built mud bed they are built in beneath the top layer of deck mud at the drain.
Great! But now I’m considering using the hydroban between the sloped & top layers of concrete in the pan instead of the vinyl liner. This way, the laticrete is one continuous membrane from ceiling (tileing to ceiling), down the wall, and pan slope to the drain.
Is this an acceptable method, and if so, which do you prefer between the concrete layers in the pan – vinyl or hydroban?
Thanks again for the great info!
If you want two layers use the vinyl. If you want to use the hydroban you only need a single layer mud deck with the hydroban over it. Tile is installed directly to the cured hydroban on the pan. Completely acceptable installation technique.
I’m going with 2 layers & a vinyl membrane. I’ll us the hydroban on the 1/2″ hardi backerboard on the walls. The vinyl liner runs over the 1st pan layer & over the curb (3 – 2×4’s). Wire mesh goes over the curb ( & obviously over the vinyl that drapes over the curb).
Question – which comes 1st – the chicken or the egg (in this case – mudding the second pan layer or mortar the curb & wire mesh — my guess is the curb)
Thanks again – time to drain the swimming pool in the shower (water tested the vinyl membrane for about 8 hrs – no leaks – whew! – time for a drink!) Once I know the order (curb or 2nd pan layer), I’ll get back to it.
Thanks again for all the great info!
Hey Dave,
You can do it in whichever order you want. Doing the curb first is much easier. I do it backwards – I’m weird like that.
Roger,
I really love your website. Great info and great delivery!! The way my tile surround meets my tub lip, it would look fine to not caulk it at all. Do you see any potiential problems with that? My tile is over cement board coated with Redguard.
Thanks
Hey Bill,
Nope, no problem at all.
Hey Roger,
Just loving this Tile-Redi shower pan. Got everything ready to go, ran my vapor barrier and cement board down into the pan like we talked about. Cut all the pan floor tile and layed them out, when I was wiping down the surface just before mixing the epoxy, I noticed a fine crack in a small dimple on the surface of the pan, when I pushed on it, it broke right through. Just a big bubble with a thin layer on top. NOT A HAPPY CAMPER ! Upon further inspection of the surface I found that there were quite a few smaller weak spots, these were maybe 1/16 deep. When I talked to the tech he said the small ones would be fine. He said that the minor surface bubbles and spider web like cracks are caused by the release agent, the larger hole going all the way through is very rare. He said if I don’t mind voiding the waranty, I can fill the hole with Loctite PL Premium polyurethane adhesive and epoxy the tile on over it and it will be fine. I’m thinking you probably have another idea ? Bill
Hi Bill,
I do have another idea, tell the tech to take his piece of shit product and give you one that’s worth the hundreds of dollars you’ve paid for it! Caused by the release agent??? Horseshit in my opinion. Why would a WATERPROOF PAN FABRICATOR use a release agent that causes spiderweb cracks and compromises the integrity of their product. Tell them you aren’t a chimney and to stop blowing smoke up your ass. Here’s what someone from outside of this (me) is seeing:
Your product, for which you’ve paid a fairly large amount of money, is damaged and/or otherwise compromised. It cannot, in the condition that you’ve received it, work properly nor as advertised. You’ve been given advice akin to a band-aid with which to fix THEIR PROBLEM. This, in turn, removes all liability from them – forever. Once you use a polyurethane adhesive on that it suddenly becomes and installation which was not installed per manufacturer’s instructions – it’s your paperweight, no longer theirs.
Sorry, bullshit backpedaling by manufacturer’s rather than simply solving the problem is one of my BIGGEST pet peeves. Call them back and tell them to send you a proper product in pristine condition which will not disintegrate when a slight breeze stiirs up. The ramifications to a structure (your home) due to a compromised waterproof barrier (which that is supposed to be) is extraordinary. The product you currently have in your bathroom is not going to last. If it busted through when you pushed on it, what’s it gonna do when you stomp all over it twice a day for five years??? Call them back and tell them that solution is absolutely unacceptable and to send you what you paid good money for.
Rant over.
Okay, I’ve calmed a (little) bit.
I realize you already have everything installed over the pan, it’s installed, and all that. BUT, with the pan doing that I really wouldn’t trust it to last long-term. I honestly think you would be better off removing it and replacing with another pan, or simply fabricating your own. I know it’s a hell of a lot more work, but not nearly as much as a replacement of the entire shower and whatever structural damage is done if it does fail. Pain in the ass, I know, but you’ll sleep better at night knowing it’s done correctly and without questions of waterproofing integrity in the pan.
Hi Roger,
Put down 1×1 mesh tiles on shower floor. Around drain left about 1/16 in between tiles and drain. Is this okay? 1×1 a hair above drain.
Also I am not sure where but I may or may not have left some of shiny paper on back of mesh and placed down inadvertently(big word for me). Another way of saying I screwed up. Some of 1×1 were loose but I took out and they are now all solid after setting agin (individually)
First tile job on floor and do not want to screw up. Also Leave gap between tile and hardi and do not grout.
Right? Thanks Roger
Hi Dick,
As long as they are good and solid now that you’ve reset them you’ll be fine. Yes, leave about 1/16″ gap between the tile and hardi and caulk it.
thanks for the reply. One question I asked that I am curious about is tile and drain. I am slightly above drain with 1×1 tile . Not quite flush. Is this okay?
I am also using 1/8 grout lines(on wall tiles (81/4.) I know you say where plane meet I should caulk. Why do people say grout and others caulk. What have you had the most success with(I am assuming caulk from your forum). Thank you for everything.
Dick
Yup, just a touch higher than the drain is fine. Standards state to use silicone or flexible caulking at all plane changes. And it makes sense since that is where there will be considerable movement relative to the rest of the installation. People say grout them either because it’s easier or because they are simply unaware of the requirement.
Thanks Roger,
Grouted floor of 1×1 in shower and was pleased until I looked closely and in some areas.)4-5 tiles the thinset (mortar gray) it has come through and can see slightly through lt. gray grout.99% is covered but because I did the job I noticed up close when cleaning. I had scraped prior to grouting but clearly I missed some.
What do you suggest- Thanks for your answers and help
Dick
You can take a grout saw and saw the grout and thinset out of those areas and regrout them. As long as you do it in the next couple of days you’ll be fine.
Thank you for all your help
Dick
Hi Roger regrouted today and it has been about 6 hours. The grout is a light gray and the regrout is presently a slight darker gray because I had to dig out due to some mastic seeping through. (6 hours). I did have to cover some of the other tiles with grout while redoing. Any suggestions? Will the grout lighten? This is a new floor I grouted yesterday and you suggested I use grout saw to take out certain areas.
Thanks Roger.
Dick
It should lighten up over the next 24 hours or so and match the rest of the grout. Ummmm, you mean thinset, not mastic, correct? I hope you didn’t use mastic on a shower floor.
Thanks Roger. I did mean thinset mortar.Thanks again it has lightened up.
Dick
Hey Roger,
Are you familiar with the Tile-Redi pans ? The top edge of the pan does not have the verticle part that slaps up against the studs like the acrylic ones. The instructions say to bring the backer board down just short of the top edge of the pan and silicone the seam, no vapor barrier. The pans floor, curb and the walls first coarse are applied with an epoxy because of the whole adhesion thing, but I know you know all that.
I’m not thrilled with the multiple adhesives etc., but they bought it and it’s already here so here’s my plan. I want to build out the studs so that the backer board comes down inside the pan, with the 4 mil behind it, just above the epoxy tiled floor. Then I do the whole caulk and weep hole deal. This way I get the vapor barrier and I don’t have to deal with multiple adhesives on the walls. It doesn’t sound like the epoxy has much open time, a little bit nervous about that.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts or do’s and don’ts. Bill
Hey Bill,
That is exactly the way I do it when I’m forced to use them. You can also get the little aluminum “redi-flash” which you can use to tie the pan into the vapor barrier. The epoxy they shipped with my last one was latapoxy which you can work for about 30 minutes (effectively). Dunno if that’s changed or not. I usually split it in half and do the bottom of the pan, let that cure, then do the curb and remaining first course if you choose the flashing route. Dry-fit all your tile in the bottom then mix up your epoxy, it’s fairly easy if it’s all cut to fit before mixing that stuff.
Hey Roger,
Thanks for the information on the redi-flash, I think I’m going to dive into the pan with the backer board just the same. The pan I’m working with is 36×72, do you have any words of wisdom for setting it in the mortar. The foam like consistency of the pan material sounds so hollow already. I do have access to the pan from below, so I won’t have to deal with the nightmare they call a drain at the same time.
Just get as much under there as you can, stomp it down until it runs out the front, then leave it alone overnight until it cures. It’s a pain in the ass.
And yeah, the drain is a joke.
First time here, great site, one of kind, you’re awesome, etc.. etc..
I’m putting in a tile shower with a pre-fab acrylic basin. I’m planning traditional substrate; hardiboard, with 4 mil plastic behind. I’m shooting for it to look like the second picture above.
My question is that I would like to confirm what to do in that few inches of cross-section where “tile meets basin”. Here’s what I’ve gathered so far….
I get the basin installed, secured, leveled, and shimmed to surrounding framing. That framing is such that after the 4 mil and the concrete hardiboard is hung, the front of board will be vertically level with the lip around the basin. The hardiboard is hung with a gap between itself and the basin. The 4 mil on the other hand goes up and round the entire shower, and then at bottom it extends lower than the hardiboard, and I flap it over the lip of the basin, and caulk the back side of the 4 mil to the basin? Then for the “bottom” row of tile, it will be attached with thinset on the part of the tile over the substrate, but just floating above the basin lip for the rest of the tile? no caulk?
This is the question that brought me to you… looking over the web for a visual of this cross-section.
Thanks in advance!
Hey Michael, etc. etc.
The tile will simply hang over the acrylic portion at the bottom of the wall. You CAN caulk it if you want, but there’s no real reason to. This portion of the wall doesn’t receive any stresses (unless the bottom row is jammed against the basin and there isn’t a caulk line there) so it won’t cause any problems whatsoever. Thinset behind it will just crack out and will not adhere to the acrylic.
I think that’s what you were looking for, yes?
Indeed! Thank you so very much… (the only way you could have been more helpful, is if you had one of your awesome drawings showing this cross section for us visual types) :-)
Now I’m on to reading about those inserty-wall-cubby-thingys. Good pictures there…
Roger
I am planning to use tile over Kerdi over sheetrock for my shower walls. My walls are open to the studs at the moment. I am wondering how flat the walls need to be, and how I correct problems with studs out of line. Would thicker sheetrock work to provide a stronger, flatter surface, do I just need to shim as needed or what?
Also, I am thinking about using a triangular section of my unused countertop material as a corner seat in the shower. How would I install this?
Thanks for your help. I really like your website.
Larry
Hey Larry,
Standard 1/2″ sheetrock is fine. Just shim them out so everything is as flat as you can get it. Ideally it should be perfect – perfect never happens.
To install your seat you’ll install the tile up to the row right beneath it on the two walls that meet the corner, set your triangular section on top of those two rows, then cut the next row around it. This way the rows beneath it support it and it’s locked into the wall.
Hey Roger,
My old floor was 12″ ceramic tile on a 3/4″ plywood subfloor with joists spaced at 16″. I tore it all off and would like to use the 1/8″ DITRA for the new tile. There is a fine layer of thinset residue on the plywood, will the bottom new layer of thin-set ahere to this, or is there some additive I need to prep the surface for the DITRA ?
Hey Bill,
As long as you have scraped as much of that thinset off as you can and it is on there solidly then a modified thinset will adhere the ditra to it just fine.
Hi –
Your explanations are very clear – thanks. I have bought a place where the prior owner did a reno and I hate the marble floor they put in the kitchen. Is there any kind of flooring tile (lino, cork etc) that I can layer over the marble instead of taking it out? It runs under the kitchen cabinets they installed and would be a pain to remove.
Thanks!
Hi Julie,
No type of tile would be suitable for your situation. You can use a free-floating floor such as laminate. They do make laminate floors that look an awful lot like tile – look around for one of those. Home Depot and Lowe’s both carry some. You will lay down a foam barrier and the floor snaps together and just floats over your current floor.
Hey Roger,
Just wondering, if we were to use that floating sink counter style in place of a traditional vanity in a bathroom itself, would we still be able to use the thinset on the plywood base, or would the humidity in the bathroom cause problems with the bond between the plywood and thinset? We like the look and were thinking of doing it in another bath down the road.
Hey Bill,
I thought you were just talking about a box in a closet – not a sink. the thinset over plywood isn’t gonna work in that scenario. You need to have a suitable substrate attached to the plywood for the tile. Get some 1/4″ cement backerboard and screw it to the plywood, then install your tile to it.
Hey Roger,
the blade technique worked out great, and the damage to the backer was minimal, especially as I got better at it. New question, we’ve got a, I guess you would call it a counter in the walk in closet off the bath. It’s not a full cabinet underneath, but a 12″ high by 6′ long plywood box between the walls to support the slab. The idea was to clad the front of the box with the 12″x18″ travertine tile. I was going to screw a piece of 1″ angle iron to the back of the bottom of the 3/4″ plywood to have a 1/4″ lip in the front to support the tile, and just silicone or liquid nail it up without grout lines. I have been told the liquid nails can stain through in time ? What would you suggest? Thanks again for all your help.
Just to let you know. The 12″x 18″ Travertine wall tile that the wife hated WAS installed correctly. The two teenagers trying to sleep in last Saturday can attest to that
Hey, I’m all for anything that wakes teenagers up on a Saturday morning.
The urethane in liquid nails can leech through your travertine and stain (show through) the front. Use thinset if you just want it stuck there. If you just want it stuck there and easily removable use double-sided tape.**
**Only do that if it is only in a closet and just there to make your plywood look pretty. It is by no means a viable installation technique! (I put that part there for the next person that wants to ask if they can use double-sided tape to install their shower – NO! )
Great site, helped to clear up a lot of misinformation. I have a question about sealing the plastic vapor barrier to the tile flange on the tub edge under the cement board. Do I need two layers of plastic? One layer over the wall insulation ( exterior wall of house), and the second layer that will be sealed to the inside edge of the tub tiling flange. I retiled my shower two years ago using the traditional method and found out the hard way that unless the vapor barrier is sealed inside the tub tile flange the moisture runs down the poly and collects under the tub. The tub and board manufacturere’s all tell you to leave a 1\4″ gap between the tiling flange and backer board then seal the gap with silicone. The problem is you are accually sealing the cement board to you vapor barrier and not the tiling flange. Care to comment?
Cheers
Hey John,
You should have plastic over the insulation below the top of the tub up to about two inches. Then the moisture barrier for the wall itself can run down and over the lip of the tub. You can have just the one sheet below the tub for the purposes of the insulation (keeping moisture out of the substrate from the outside) then the moisture barrier, which runs over the tub lip, can serve as both the barrier for the shower as well as the barrier for the insulation. You can also have two sheets if you want, you really don’t need them, though. The front one absolutely needs to be lapped over the tub lip (you already know that, though).
Hey Roger,
I’ve got about 10 – 12″x18″ travertine wall tile up on hardibacker. the wife comes back from being out of town and says, ” I don’t remember it being that dark, I can not live with that”. Is there any chance I can rip the tile and most of the thin-set off without ruining the backer board, or should I just plan on replacing it all ? Have you ever had this happen to you?
Hey Bill,
Did you stare her straight in the eye and say “thanks, wife.”?
I have attempted to take out tile without damaging backerboard (not due to my wife
). If it isn’t installed properly it’s easy, if it is installed properly it’s a pain in the ass – appropriately so. The best thing to do is try to get a thin layer of metal pounded down between the tile and backer to essentially ‘slice’ the tile off the backerboard. The best thing I have found to do this is a large drywall knife – the 12″ one with the real thin blade. You’ll need to chip or crack out at least one part of a tile to get the knife on the edge between the tile and backer, then pound the blade down between the two. Once you get the blade all the way in down to the handle (they’re only about four inches long) you can take your hammer and hit right where your blade was and it should crack the tile and you should be able to just pull it off since the bond was sliced through.
That should work for the most part. If there are some small areas of the backerboard no left completely intact, provided they are small areas, you can simply float it out with thinset.
*This will only work if you do not have a topical waterproofing membrane such as kerdi or redgard. If you do you’re SOL.
Hey Roger,
I’m putting in a corner shower with the mud pan and the preslope layer and liner deal. I’ve got the HardieBacker on the walls with the plastic behind overlapping the pan liner. For the wall panels that meet the floor, I’ve been told to leave a gap to prevent wicking. Do I fill this space with anything? If I just caulk where the tiles meet won’t I need a backer?
Also I’m planning on tiling to the ceiling with 10×14 travertine, thought I would use the old
wall board above the 6′ mark. If I clean the paint and sand is this OK ?
Hey Bill,
If your shower is properly built and waterproofed caulk is simply there mostly for aesthetic reasons. You don’t technically need a backer behind it but you can use a ‘filler rod’ or the like if you want to. I usually simply leave a 1/16″ gap there and fill it with caulk – no backing needed.
Not sure what type of ‘old wall board’ you are describing but even drywall is *technically* acceptable above the shower head. if you sand it down so the thinset will adhere it should be fine. I would also screw the ceiling board to the joists to ensure it will accept the added weight – I run into a lot of ceilings that are simply nailed up to the joists, that won’t work.
Recently found your website. FANTASTIC !! Very helpful. Wondering what your preferred method of vapor barrier is, plastic on the wall studs or Redgard on the Hardiebacker?
Also… I own a log home & I’m doing a new tiled shower in our bathroom. One wall is a studded interior wall & the other is the exterior log. It’s flat, looks like a tonge & groove wall. Would you recommend studding the wall to create an air space between the Hardiebacker & exterior log or can I install the Hardiebacker directly to the log wall? Originally there was a 3 piece acrylic shower unit there & I put plastic on the exerior wall & after removing the old shower, I saw that the wall looked fine. There was no moisture damage. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Hey Brian,
I prefer topical membranes, more specifically kerdi. Redgard and the like are also topical but they are a bit difficult for me to use due to the time factor involved with applying a coat, waiting, applying another coat, etc. It simply doesn’t work fast enough for me but it’s good stuff if you have the time.
If you are using redgard you can simply install the backerboard directly to that wall. The only real reason to install studs and create a space would be for insulation if the cabin is in a cold climate. Not really necessary but frozen shampoo sucks.
Just a quick comment for this
”Quote : Nothing confusing at all. Well, to me anyway. You’ve actually hit on one of the big debates with tile installers – full against full or full against half. Seriously, this leads to heated arguments. There is not ‘set in stone’ (pun intended) way to do it. I do it both ways, sometimes just to piss off other tile installers. Here’s the best way to figure out how to do it: Which do you think looks best? There’s your answer.
The reason it’s such a big debate is because of the damn brick layers. Look at inside corners of brick walls – they’re all full-half. If it wasn’t for them screwing that up we wouldn’t even discuss it. ”
Isn’t it beautiful that we have the choice vs. no choice for the bricklayers ? The bricklayers have to use the option for interlocking the bricks , which is necessary vs. we make it aesthetic .
And of course full tile against full tile , half tile against half tile .
@ Tom,
I picked up one of those “bucket scrapers” earlier this year. They have them by the drywall tools. The blade has the same radius as the inside of a 5 gal bucket. I scrape out the bucket then add a little water and brush it out with a toilet brush. Works awesome. I’ve used the same bunch of buckets on dozens of jobs.
Yup, Tony’s right, that also works well. I’m just too lazy of a bastard at the end of the day to scrub out my buckets – I’d rather grab my hammer the next day. Keeps my attitude happy.
The moment of truth is coming. Hopefully I can get at least some if not all tiling done this weekend. Tiling didn’t happen last weekend, painting did. Anyway, here are a few more questions:
1. In a regular 3 wall bath/shower surround which wall should I start with/what order do I do each wall in?
2. I believe you said it doesn’t matter if either side in an inside corner overlaps the other if you caulk/silicone or spectralock grout the corners. Is that right?
3. I know that you tile a wall from the bottom up starting after the first row working off of a straight edge but for the two short side walls I’ll have a bull nose down the outside that I want to be even with the tub apron. When I work from the bottom up does that mean I should also work front to back (from the bull nose piece to the corner)?
4. What is the working time for Laticrete Multipurpose or Versabond?
5. As far as the weep holes go, I’m worried that they’ll look conspicuous. Is there a way I can make them thinner than the entire width of the caulk bead? Like what If stick a piece of thin lubricated (so the caulk doesn’t stick to it) plastic shim where I want the weep hole to be then run my caulk bead straight along and then remove the shim to reveal a thin weep hole? I know that has to sound bizarre. I may put them toward the front since I’ll have a shower door to try to hide them a little. FYI, even though I’m using Spectralock I’m planning on caulking (silicone) the tile to tub transition.
6. This one’s going to be confusing. I’m doing a running bond on my walls. I believe you’re supposed to match full tiles with full tiles and partial tiles with partial tiles at inside corners. If my math is correct (32′ side walls, 60″ long wall, 12′ wide tiles, 3″ wide bull nose, 1/8″ grout joints) I’m going to have 3 grout joints, a bull nose piece, two full tiles, and a 4 5/8″ partial tile in each row along the short side walls with the partial tile alternating at the inside corner and at the bull nose piece every other row. Along the long back wall I’ll have 5 “full” tiles with 4 grout joints (meaning I’ll have to lose 1/2″ from one side tile or 1/4″ from each side tile) in one row and then I’ll have 4 full tiles with two half tiles and 5 grout joints and I’ll have to lose 5/8″ from the two half tiles (I figure I can split the difference or take it all from one tile). That’ll make the partial tiles 4 5/8″ on the short walls and anywhere from 5 3/8″ to 5 3/4″ on the long wall. Now that the explanation is out of the way I can ask the question. Will it look bad if the partial tiles from each wall that meet at the inside corner aren’t equal width?
7. Further, my math also tells me that with an approximate 76″ height from the tub to the ceiling (I’m tiling to the ceiling) I’ll have 8 full rows, a partial row that’ll wind up being about 3″ wide, and 8 grout joints. The 3″ partial row could come out looking like a border that would match the 3″ bull nose down the sides. Or I would shift everything down 3″ to give me a 6″ wide row at the top and bottom. Which do you think would be better?
I can’t thank you enough for the help you give us here.
Hey Tom,
1. Start with your back wall – the big one. Then the side walls, doesn’t matter which one. I usually do the one without the fixtures last because by that time I’m sick of cutting around stuff and drilling holes.
2. That’s correct, doesn’t matter which overlaps which.
3. Yes, always work from the front of the tub back. That way you get full (or full-half) tiles in the front and the back ones are cut anyway. Your front tile against the bullnose will remain straight and level that way.
4. If mixed properly about 2 1/2 hours for either.
5. Sure you can use the wedge, just make sure that when you silicone over the top of it that you do not fill it all the way back to your substrate – the wall. This would effectively negate the weep holes if they are sealed all the way around and no water can get through, no?
6. Nothing confusing at all. Well, to me anyway.
You’ve actually hit on one of the big debates with tile installers – full against full or full against half. Seriously, this leads to heated arguments. There is not ‘set in stone’ (pun intended) way to do it. I do it both ways, sometimes just to piss off other tile installers. Here’s the best way to figure out how to do it: Which do you think looks best? There’s your answer.
The reason it’s such a big debate is because of the damn brick layers. Look at inside corners of brick walls – they’re all full-half. If it wasn’t for them screwing that up we wouldn’t even discuss it.
Now that the explanation is out of the way I’ll answer your question: It actually looks better. Really.
7. It always looks better with the cut tiles at the top and full at the bottom, especially if you’re tiling the ceiling.
Roger,
In your response to Tom’s question #7, you said, “It always looks better with [t]he cut tiles at the top and full at the bottom, especially if you’re tiling the ceiling.”
Did you mean tiling TO the ceiling, or tiling the ceiling? In your opinion, does it make a difference if you are tiling the ceiling and use a cut tile at the top and a full at the bottom?
I always like the balanced look and tend to make the partial tiles equal on sides or top, expecially if the partial tile will end up being less than half a full tile.
I am getting ready to tile my master bath (it is a tiny one from the early 60s). I am tiling the shower area from the pan to the ceiling and the rest of the room about 47″ high. I will be including a band of 3″ mosaic accent all around at about 42″ from the floor. I always worry about the partial tile issues on the sides and top (this will be my third bathroom job). As you mentioned earlier, best advice sems to go with what you think looks good, but I always question my own judgment not being a professional.
Hey Mark,
I meant tiling to the ceiling. The ceiling tiles would also be cut along the back wall – they will rarely fall at the correct size to ensure full tiles from the front to the back.
I understand the balanced look thing but keep in mind that when dealing with showers, wainscots and the like where one side of your installation will effectively stop (or begin) in the middle of a wall or ceiling and end against another tiled surface it is always better to have full tiles at that starting point. For instance: starting with a full tile at the outside edge of your shower ceiling then making the cut tiles along the back where it meets the shower walls. When meeting two tiles at changes of plane a cut tile which is less than half a tile is not as noticeable since it usually butts against another cut tile. When I stop a shower surround six feet up the wall rather than tiling all the way to the ceiling, the cut tiles are always against the tub. If you try to even them out with cut tiles the same size at the top and bottom it looks like crap.
With a wainscot you normally want full tiles all the way from the top and all of your cut tiles (if any) against the floor. If your wainscot meets with your shower wall your cut tiles along the tub (and, in turn, against your ceiling) will be determined by the height of your wainscot to ensure your grout line is consistent throughout the bathroom. If you have a cut tile at the top of your wainscot you would also need to cut a tile in the middle of the shower wall to maintain that consistency – you don’t want to do that.
All good information. I didn’t get nearly as much done as I had intended but I did get some done. Apparently there’s a bit of a learning curve when you do this stuff. Who would have thought? At least what did get done looks good so that’s something.
One thing I learned is that the 2 1/2 hour working time for the thin set is for the stuff in the bucket, not for the stuff you already put on the walls. Let’s just say there was some scraping involved.
I have some more questions and a suggestion.
1. I thought I saw it somewhere on your site but I can’t find it now so maybe it was in a tile tip or maybe I just imagined it but I need to know how to cut a square inside the tile. I’m not there yet but when I get to where the faucet handle will be there is a 4″x4″ plastic square that outlines where the cut will be. I know thay make it like this because many people use 4″x4″ tiles for showers. Unfortunately if my planning is correct this square will fall inside a tile and I’d rather not have to cut an other wise full tile in half and have to add a weird grout joint. To complicate it the square will be near the bottom of the tile so I’ll only have about 1/2″ to 3/4″ of tile between the edge of the tile and the square cut out. I guess this question can also address how to make a 3-sided cut in a tile as the back cut is the tricky one. Until now I’ve only had to make 2-sided cuts which are easy. I have a 7″ wet tile table saw that I’ve been using for the 2-sided cuts. I don’t have a rotozip but I guess I could buy one if needed. I do have ceramic tile drill bits. I also have one of those oscillating multi-tools with diamond blades for it. I just don’t know if it’ll cut the till well enough and if I can cut a square freehand.
2. What do you use to mix your thinset in and how do you clean it? I’ve been using a 5 gallon bucket but it’s tough to get all the thinset out and to clean it afterwards. The first time I did any tiling about a year ago I just treated the bucket as disposable and threw it out. Since I’m doing more tile and in stages I’m trying to re-use it instead of buying 10 buckets. Also, is it a bad idea to rinse thinset down the drain? I try to get as much out as possible and throw it out but then I rinse the bucket and some of it goes down the drain in my basement wash basin. I run water down it for a while after to dillute it or flush it to the sewer system as much as possible. I just don’t want to run unto a situation where my pipes are clogged with cement.
Finally my suggestion: it would be neat to have a section on your site where the people you help could send you pictures of their installations for you to display. Kind of like a bragging section; “Hey look what Roger helped me do.” (Be forewarned. Whether you display them or not this means I’ll probably send pictures of my bathroom when I’m done. I anticipate being so pleased with myself that I must show people.)
Shit Tom, I’m sorry. I should have told you that was for thinset in the bucket. Another case of me doing it every day and simply overlooking basic information – sorry about that.
Cutting out a square was one of the TileTips and it dealt only with heater vents in a floor – cutting them after setting the tile. Since you have something poking out of the wall that isn’t really a viable solution.
I cut squares on my wet saw – but I have a DeWalt which has the capability to move the blade up and down like a chop-saw. I run the tile under the blade and cut the tile from the back by pulling the blade down into it. You probably don’t have one of those. Before I got the DeWalt I would still cut them on my wet saw (felker tm-75) but you need to do it in the same manner by resting the edge of the tile on the front of the tray with the rest of the tile under the blade and pull the tile up into the blade. It’s hard to do and takes a LOT of practice.
You have two easier options – the fein (or fein-like) vibrating tool isn’t gonna work. I wish they would – but they don’t.
You can get a 4 inch grinder with a diamond wheel and cut it with that – I still do that with toilet flanges. Or you can get a roto-zip with the x-bit for floor tile. If you do go that route get the big roto-zip. It. Is. The. Shit! Once I bought one I will never give it up – ever. Somebody grew a brain and turned that thing into a very useful tool. If you have the means to purchase one absolutely do it. I do a lot of (personal) woodworking too and that thing is invaluable.
Check your escutcheon (the round cover that will go over your faucet handle) and you may find that it will cover a large part of the bottom of that cut. You may only need to make a three sided cut, in which case you can cut the two side cuts and do the whole thing with moving the tile up into the blade for the back cut.
I use regular five-gallon buckets for my thinset. Scrape out the bulk of it when your done and let it set overnight. The next day grab your hammer and pound on the side of the bucket and the cured thinset will bust out in chunks. Any real thin areas that don’t crack or bust out you can sand out of there with a drywall sponge. It is a bad idea to rinse thinset down the drain! Thinset will cure underwater – you don’t wanna be plugging up the works. If you have a hose and a spot with dirt in your yard you can simply spray it all out the day your done and the next day you can simply pick up the layer of cured thinset and throw it in the dumpster.
I don’t have that section up yet but I do have a couple of projects that people have sent me photos of for it. Tell you what – you finish and send me your pictures and that’s when I’ll put it up – howzzat sound?
No problem with the thin set curing. I wasn’t blaming you at all. My lack of common sense in the matter was mostly to blame. Of course a thin layer of something will dry faster than a big bucket of it.
I don’t think that lifting the tile up to the blade is an option for me. My tile saw is like a table saw with the blade under the tile so I’d be lowering the tile onto it which would make it hard to see where I’m cutting. Here’s my saw: http://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/tile-saws/7-inch-portable-wet-cutting-tile-saw-40315.html
I know it’s a cheap one but I shop at Harbor Freight a lot and get similar tools to name brand ones that (for my purposes) do the same job for a lot less money. I got that one for like $50 with a coupon. It cuts fast and pretty cleanly without chipping too much glaze off the tile surface near the cut. I know the ones that have the blade up top are supposed to be better at that.
Fein-like. That’s funny. Mine is also from HF and it was like $30 as opposed to the Fein for $200+. Again works great for me, use it all the time. I know you’re saying it won’t work and after everything I’ve learned here I trust you but you must understand that I am stubborn and I will probably try it anyway and then I will say that you were right and that you told me so.
Checking the escutcheon is a good idea. That may simplify the problem. If it doesn’t cover then I may explore the grinder or rotozip option (or the HF equivalent). I also have some of those “round, cuts in any direction” carbide hack saw blades I could try.
Noted. No more thin set down the drain. Hopefully what has already gone down was so little and dilluted with enough water that it won’t be a problem.
Sounds good. Ive been talink pictures all along the way but I’ll try to keep it to a few befores and afters.
Hey Tom,
Sorry about the comment problems – My spam filter thought you were trying to sell me viagra. Long links tend to kick them into there. If you hit submit I end up with it somewhere – if it doesn’t show up immediately just let me know – I’ll kick the elves in the ass and make ’em work.
Yeah, my method isn’t gonna work with that saw. You can lower the tile onto it as long as you have the correct spacing from the blade – it’s a pain in the ass but I’ve done it.
I have that exact fein-like tool.
With tools such as those I will spend thirty dollars for that and see if I like it. If I do I can justify dropping 300 – if not I’m out 30. Best way to figure out if I like all the new shiny stuff they come out with. Don’t know about the carbide hack-saw blade – I’ve actually never used one. No real reason I haven’t, just never had a need to, I always had another tool for things like that. I hear they work – you can let me know, eh? 
I’d never heard of weep holes – but I did wonder what would happen to any moisture behind the tiles if we seal everything up!!! Thanks, I got your email this morning and I am just going to do the caulking around the tub today! Very timley – thanks. You explain things very well. Good work.
Hi Mary,
Glad I could help.