The wonderful folks at Laticrete sent me a linear drain to play with. And you know me – I bastardized it until it was virtually unrecognizable, ran it through the paces and did things you really shouldn’t do with nice, high-end products like this.
And it survived. Word on the street is that they read my blog, probably for comic relief and to instruct people what NOT to do with their products. So I’m sure they knew this when they sent it… I mean honestly, I soaked their grout in cherry Kool-aid for a week, how could they NOT know?
I did, however, put it to good use in a very cool shower. This is a brief overview of the installation of that drain.
Laticrete HydroBan linear drains are topical drains intended for use with the Hydro Ban liquid waterproofing membrane. They are available in 24″(61cm), 32″(81 cm), 36″(91 cm), 42″(107cm) and 60″(152 cm) lengths. They are also available with a brushed steel grate or a tile-in option.
I had the 36″ tile-in version. The tile-in version allows you to install the same tile in the grate of the drain which, when completed, allows the drain to be nearly invisible in the installation.
You can visit Laticrete’s linear drain information page for a short video on how it is (technically) supposed to be installed.
We all know that’s not what I did. Well, I did, except for one small issue. In the real world application of any product you may need to adapt or tweak something to make it fit or function as it should. This does not always happen! In fact, it rarely happens. I only point it out because with this particular installation I needed to do that with one small part. No big deal.
It usually means you’ll lose your manufacturer’s warranty, so just be aware of that. I’m also fairly certain that they knew that when they sent me the drain. See, I’m rarely a risk for manufacturers. It’s almost to the point where I lose my warranty when I open the box. That’s just how I roll…
When you do open the box you’ll notice the drain only has two pieces. That’s it! It’s difficult for even me to screw this up. Yours actually may have more than that. The drain now has adjustable feet on the grate which was not available on the one I had. So in the photos of my tile-in grate you’ll see little tab-like things sticking out from the bottom – those are the feet. Yours will have adjustable feet to enable you to move it up or down to meet the height of your particular tile.
But it has two basic parts. It has the flange – that’s the part that sits in your mud deck and has the outlet for your drain pipe. And it has the grate – that’s the part that goes in the top, currently either brushed stainless steel or the tile-in option.
With any of the photos below you can click on the picture to view the large version. The huge group of photos at the bottom do the same thing, you can also click the little arrow to view each one in order after enlarging it – you don’t need to click on each individual photo at the bottom of the page.
You’ll notice the old drain pipe in the center (the white part sticking up). Behind that, on top of the floor is the flange portion of the drain, and laying across the front of the shower is the grate portion. See the four tabs in the front? Those will be where your adjustable feet are. Laticrete knows enough to send me products with no moving parts. Yours, however, will have moving parts.
You can see it if you’re so inclined – just click on the pic.
I did not take photos of drilling the hole in the floor because, well, it’s drilling a hole in plywood.
Not particularly spectacular.
If you click on that picture and take a look at each end of the drain flange you’ll see why I had to *ahem* ‘customize’ this particular drain. The drain flange fits in the bathroom – fits precisely – from one sill plate (the 2×4 at the bottom of the wall) to the other (in this case the bottom brace for the sliding door). That’s great! If you don’t want the drain grate to be removable.
You do, however, want the drain grate to be removable. Once I installed the wall substrate the grate would not fit. So my ‘modification’ consisted of simply shortening the drain grate so it would fit between the two walls once the substrate, waterproofing and tile were installed. This is NOT recommended. Just so you know…
After that you need to hook the drain up to your drain pipe. In most installations your existing drain pipe will need to be moved! This post does not describe that – I’m not a plumber. My plumber is on speed dial. Once your drain pipe (and p-trap, etc.) are moved to where you need it – THEN you hook the drain up to the drain pipe.
This is done with what is called a no-hub connector. It is basically a rubber sleeve with clamps which fits the two pieces together. You place half of the sleeve onto your drain pipe and the other half onto the outlet of the drain and clamp it down.
If you do not have access beneath the drain once it is in place to tighten the clamps you can cut a short length of pvc or cpe and attach it to the bottom of the drain with the connector. You’ll then have the drain with the outlet, on that is the connector and a short length of pipe. Then when you go to install your drain you simply put the adhesive on that short length of pipe and the end of the p-trap (or a stub-up piece of pipe with a coupling) and press it in there to install the drain.
The photo to the right is of a different brand of drain, but it shows the coupling with a short length of pipe exactly like it would be on the Laticrete drain. You can see the rubber coupling and the metal clamp which is placed around it and tightened down. I had access below the floor in this particular shower so I didn’t need to do that here.
Once you get the drain in the proper place it’s time to form your mortar bed. This is the sloped mud deck for your tile floor. These drains are used with a liquid topical membrane called HydroBan. It is an elastomeric liquid which is brushed, rolled or troweled onto your substrate to make it waterproof. Tile is then installed directly to the membrane.
After the mud deck cures I’ll be installing the HydroBan and tile. That, however, will need to wait for the next post.
It’s late and I’m almost out of beer. I don’t want to take up too much of your time. You can see all the photos of the process below, though, if you’re impatient.
With the tile-in option the drain will also nearly disappear. You can continue any pattern from your bathroom floor right into the shower floor. It all ties in together really well.
These drains are normally installed up against one of the walls in the shower. It really doesn’t matter which you choose. However (!), there are a couple of rules (aren’t there always?).
If you want it against one of the side walls, rather than at the front or back of the shower, you need to have a curb for your shower. You can not have a curbless shower if the linear drain is on one of the side walls, the mud deck will be thicker at the opposite side.
If you want a curbless shower, such as this one, you either:
- Need the drain at the front of the shower, in which case the floor will slope from the drain up to the back wall. Or
- Need the floor to slope DOWN from your bathroom floor into the shower to the drain at the back wall.
If you do not have the structural ability to lower your floor in the shower and slope the deck down into the shower you need to have a curb at the front, then create your mud deck to slope from the drain against the back wall up to the curb at the front of the shower.
After your mud deck cures we need to install the HydroBan and seal everything up. I’ll cover all that in the next post. Until then you can partake in my horrible photography skills below covering the entire installation.
Hi Roger, I have been following you and Sal Diblaso for some time. While I have a bit of experience with tile application, good practice and codes, I have never tiled myself, which leads me to my new shower install. After hiring an installer who claimed to be top notch, it went down hill from day 1. I won’t get into every gory detail because I’d rather get to the facts. My shower is approximately 10x8ft. The rear wall will have a free standing tub placed against the wall. The left wall has the shower system with jets. It produces a fair amount of water. The right wall is plumbing free. I have a 60″ topical linear drain “no hub” I believe there are no weep holes. Maker is NEODRAIN. it’s placed vertically in the center. It starts just after the bathtub edge and ends just before curb. The subfloor is concrete and below grade.
I used Hardie backer on walls. There is no vapor barrier behind hardie. I also used Redgard and Laticrete on seams. Now the install.
A coat of Redgard was placed on walls. Redgard was also placed on subfloor, against my wishes. Then thinset, and the mud.
They said I didn’t need Redgard on walls and I was crazy. They also did not want to bond the mudbed . They took it upon themselves to redgard subfloor. Their intention was to build shower pan on concrete subfloor. I saw what they had done and argued that I needed the pan sloped to drain. I now have a potential mold sandwich? Rather then ask them to tear it out I then asked them to waterproof on top of the mudbed and 6″ up wall, tying in topical drain with laticrete and redgard. They ignored my request and tiled walls to the floor. They then said they would put redgard on mudbed and wipe off the mess on the wall tiles that were on the mudbed. They said the drain didnt need waterproofing to the liquid membrane. They told me that the grout was impermeable and they had been doing this for 30 yrs and have never had a failed shower. I said I’d rather not have stagnant water on my concrete foundation with no way to drain. Needless to say they abandoned the job, which is fine, and I’m glad. I was going to ask them to leave anyhow. I had their work inspected and the mudbed is not sloped correctly, among other problems. Can I still use the mudbed? What should I do? I am now left with a mess and I’m not sure what to do from here. Your advice would be greatly appreciated.
Here are some pics
If the mud deck is not properly sloped the easiest, and best, solution is to have the mud bed removed and start over. The bottom row of tiles will need to be removed as well so the waterproofing can tie into the walls. The redgard on the subfloor is not going to create any issues. While it’s not ideal, it won’t cause any problems. You do need the membrane on top of your mud deck and tied into the walls, though.
Hi Roger, Thank you for the reply. Can the mudbed be tied into, if someone can make corrections? What’s the best way to waterproof my drain, set into the mud, set after mud? The plumber set it into the concrete and it is flush with the concrete. Should it be removed and raised? Here is the drain. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0794VL8QT?psc=1&ref=yo_pop_mb_pd_title
Here’s a video I found that I found. What do ya think? https://youtu.be/S_YJTm_HIrg
You can tie into the mud by removing the bottom row of tiles and painting the membrane from the floor up the walls. That drain *can* be tied into, but you need someone who knows how to do it (with experience) and it will need to be removed and raised.
Thank you for the reply Roger. Would ya mind instructing me on the drain installation? I’ve recently moved from Ca to a small town in Oklahoma. The tile installers I’ve talked to recently, have never seen a linear drain. One still uses mastic to apply tile in the shower. We may have to attempt this ourselves, or I could instruct someone. Do ya know anyone good near Tahlequah Ok? I really need to know how to get this drain in..Thanks so much!
Sorry, don’t know anyone around there in OK. The drain is fairly self-explanatory. Remove it, extend the drain pipe rough-in (the 2″ pipe) with a coupling, hook the drain up to the extended pipe and pack mud under it so it sits a minimum of 1 1/2″ above the slab. They are all basically the same, that one has ‘feet’, but I doubt they will extend that much. Even if they do you still need to pack mud under it for full support. The manufacturers instructions would be the place to start, if you don’t have it they will likely have them on their website.
Hey Roger, I really appreciate your reply, again. Ya, the manufacturer doesn’t have any installation instructions. They’re in China and nearly impossible to reach. Your advice is really appreciated. I have hope now! LOL!! Take care, I love your site.
Here is the install pic from Neodrain. Is this how they do it in China? Your thoghts?
Also, here is the message from Neodrain. They say not to use Laticrete fiber as there is no flange. Also they show redgard on a flat pan concrete subfloor painted down the sides of the drain. What do ya think?
single slope install… (574 KB)
Thanks for choosing Neodrain.
Such type of linear drain is plain body not flange body, it do not need Laticrete fiber.
The mudbed underneath the drain should be not less than 1-1/2″ above the subfloor.
Attached herewith is the installation diagram for your reference only,the liquid membrane should cling to the pipe wall to avoid any gap.
Not recommend for DIY installation,please consult professional to ensure the installation comply with local plumbing code.
Jason Ma – Sales Manager
Neodrain Technologies Co.,Limited.
Bldg 10, No348 Meidisi Rd,
I have no idea if that’s how they do it in China.
The diagram they sent you will not work, you still have a saturated mud bed on the SIDE of the drain, all it does is protect the drain from water – makes no sense. You need to run the waterproofing over the top of your mud deck and over the lip of the drain to the inside. It doesn’t need to go all the way to the drain pipe (assuming the drain body is waterproof). You just want water on the floor (under the tile) to run down the slope of the mud deck into the top of the drain body – that’s it.
Hi Roger, thank you for the reply. So will this application in this video work? https://youtu.be/S_YJTm_HIrg You never did say. I can’t find anyone that has experience with a linear drain locally. I guess I need exacts. When you say waterproof the inside, do ya mean with Laticrete and Redgard over the top of entire drain? This is the application I was thinking, and cut out the center after it dries like in the video. OR
Run the waterproofing down all 4 sides into the center of the drain without going over the top?
The drain you have has two main parts, the trough and the grate. You need your waterproofing to run over the top edge of the trough down into the inside of the drain to create a solid waterproofing layer from the floor into the drain without any open spaces between the waterproofing on the floor and the bottom of the drain. You will not be able to get the liquid to span the top of the trough in order to cut it out when it cures – it simply won’t span (it’s a liquid ). But you can paint it up over the top edge of the drain and down the inside.
I had the exact same problem and easily resolved it. I moved the linear drain about 6 inches from the front. Then just had to slope those 6 inches down from the front of the shower to the drain. Doing this you still are not standing on the drain at all as you take your shower at all. It actually was right under the foot faucet. Worked out great. See attached pics.
I am a DIYer putting in a linear floor drain. The shower is on the first floor with access to the plumping via the basement. I am roughing everything out now. Ideally, I would like to have the drain directly against the far wall. However, a floor joist is directly under where the edge of the shower floor. I am wondering if you have any thoughts or advice about how to approach this.
You need to find a different placement for the drain. You can move it forward away from the wall a bit and have the floor behind it sloped the opposite way, put it in the center of the floor or, if an option, maybe against the wall to the left or right of the shower instead of the back wall. Unfortunately there really isn’t much you can do with a joist right there.
Please forgive my ignorance and confusion, I readily admit to both. What are the differences between a Topical drain and a regular drain? Does the application of a Topical substance turn a normal drain into a Topical drain? Or are there design differences? Looking around I see no drains specifically marketed as topical drains.
They are two different drains. A topical drain only has drainage directly through the hole on the top.
A regular drain (clamping drain) has three pieces, the lower flange goes down first, then the waterproof shower liner goes over it, then the upper flange of the drain screws into the lower to clamp the membrane. The upper flange has holes in it called weep holes which allow water to drain. A mudbed is then installed and the barrel of the drain is screwed into the middle of the drain, this is the part that is seen, the ‘hole’ for the water. The reason is that any water that does not go into the main ‘hole’, the water that gets down under the tile, will soak through the mudbed before it hits the waterproof liner. It will then run down the liner and into the weep holes.
A Schluter Kerdi drain and a Laticrete hydroban drain are both topical drains. There are others, but those are the main two that are readily available.
Though curbless, I have a little bit of a different setup. I have a 38x 38 corner shower with two full walls ( shaped like an L ) and a center drain in a concrete slab that has been dug out for a proper pitch.
The first time around I cut the drain pipe too much and ended up with 1.5″ pitch from the surrounding floor to the top of the drain ( which I believe surpasses the 1/2 – 1/2 code) So I cut the pipe a bit more to put a coupling on plus 3/4 pipe to connect the drain. I now have a little more than 1/2″ pitch to the drain from the surrounding floor. I am worried if this will be enough now.
Will this pitch be ok? I had a hell of a time trying to get the right height :/ Would manipulating the pitch with thinset while installing the tile be a bad idea?
I honestly have no idea what the hell a 1/2-1/2 code is, or a 1/2″ pitch. I know what a 1/2″ pitch is, but is that over five feet or six inches? Your slope needs to be 1/4″ per foot. If the furthest corner from the drain is two feet, then a 1/2″ pitch over that area is proper. If it’s more than that then it’s too shallow.
Sorry for the typo… “which I believe surpasses the 1/4 – 1/2 code” from what I have read, over 1/2″ per foot is a danger and not to code. The shower area is 38x 38 so the furtest distance from the drain is 27″ so I believe I just make the min that code requires. I just wasn’t sure if that was enough for a curbless shower.
That will be fine.
Hello Mr. Floor Elf
First let me apologize for all the trouble I caused in Ft. Collins a few years back. I really did try to leave town via E. Mulberry St. to the interstate. It’s just that every time I got to the edge of your lovely city there was a no u turn sign, so I did. And you what? There the same sign on W. Mulberry St. too. So I did. Also a few no trucks allowed signs on the streets down there too. Suffice it too say the fine officers at the Ft. Collins police department were a bit unhappy with me. But after paying the fines for all that they directed me to N. US 287 and told me too make a right turn in Laramie WY. Now that brings me to my personal apology too you. You have a very nice tile truck but even I know that US 287 sign means, us do 287 mph or as close as possible! Had I known you were just cruising around looking for new beer, I mean Pepsi joints most certainly would not have tail-gated quite as close. I’m sorry. Still not sure if the color change in your face was my fault or if you had just gotten back from an 18 month visit to the Big Elf at the north pole. I’m always up for checking out new beer, mean Pepsi joints. Hope you accept my apology. Anyways on too my question. I need to put in a new shower. Then old one isn’t looking so well after I hard-wired my 8-track into one of those shower niches so I could listen too the Beach Boys in the shower. Things didn’t work out as well as I would have liked. My wife video taped me for a half hour unconscious and dancing before calling 911. And I think, but can’t prove that the EMT people recorded me also on those I-Potty thingies. And all this time I thought I-Potties were rest areas on the interstates. Anyhow I called my son the engineer over to help me with the new shower. Told him after reading your posts that it needed a slope so the water would drain out. So he set about figuring out all that using something called Alge Bra. Think it’s a new language or some lady’s name or undergarment, I didn’t understand any of it. Than after his mother showed him the video they had a good laugh, he left. No help at all. So my question is for the mud bed can I use those Goof Proof stick thingies I see advertised all over the place to make a mud bed for a linear drain? If so, do I use the Pre or Post sticks or can I mix and match? I’m leaning towards the mix and match in order too get a wave action in the mud bed. No need too concern yourself as I won’t be putting an 8-track in this one. I learned my lesson. All ready have a hole cut out of the back wall and trimmed in for my RCA b&w console TV. Plan to waterproof it with a coat of HydroBan, a coat of the red stuff and a coat of that other one. Waterproofed and I get too watch re-runs of Baywatch in color. Sorry for being so long winded, it gets a bit boring out here on the road only being able too talk to the other voices in my head. Since I’m not much good at the math and if it’s alright too use those Goof Proof stick thingies for the mud bed, maybe I can make a nice shower. Have a mighty fine day and an even better one tomorrow!
Yes, the goof-proof sticks work well. You want to use one or the other, if you use both you’ll end up with double the slope – unless you want that wave thing, that would be SWEET! (send photos…)
Project: Replace old tub with a freestanding clawfoot tub w/ shower kit ~ instead of the shower surround curtain I want to tile the walls and floor (where old tub is set in) so water can go down the wall and into a floor drain.
I am exploring linear drain options… they seem quite pricey what with all the brands and their exclusive waterproof methods. The subfloor will be plywood, tar paper, deck mud (sloped towards back wall from existing tile), kerdi membrane and ideally the new surface tile is level to the surrounding existing tile =)
The pipes are accessible from below in the basement. Most will be replaced anyway since the new taps will be moved to the other end.
Is only a kerdi brand possible, or can i go with a Laticrete, Tru-line, or , ahem, cheaper option?
Can I kerdi just the the shower floor? And go trad with the 2 walls?
The one wall is exterior: it is insulated behind 3/4″ x 7.5″ tongue ‘n groove boards attached to the studs. Tar paper covers the insulation (between the boards and insulation), The other wall is interior, empty b/t the studs, covered with tar paper then boards.
a) plastic over those boards and tack on the hardi board, then tile?
b) replace the boards with plastic, then hardi board, then tile?
c) hardi-board right to the t ‘n g, then kerdi, then tile?
d) just buy yer manuals for god’s sake
PS: Thank-you for inspiring me to git goin with all of the info I have gleaned from reading so far!
I just completed a new shower install using the Trugard waterproofing membrane and shower tray which all worked perfectly for me. Also used their linear drain which is designed without a vertical lip above the drain flange which I think is a major design flaw in some other shower drains. Discovered that the Hardie Board on the shower walls also needs to be waterproofed which I did using the Trugard membrane. See pic attached.
You can go with any topical drain (laticrete, schluter, etc.). It is VERY difficult to use a traditional waterproofing on what is essentially a no-curb shower floor with a linear drain. You can not use traditional walls with topical floors – the water will run under the floor. All other questions are moot since it is not a viable option.
Also – you’ll have a clawfoot tub sitting on a sloped floor…
I had thought to put the linear drain in the middle so to have even clawfeet and have decided to go regular topical =)
Kerdi up the walls – check!
Read ya later!