The days of grabbing a three dollar bag of “thinset” and sticking floor tile right to the plywood in a bathroom are long gone (for professionals, anyway). For a proper tile installation you need a proper substrate. One of the most readily available are cement backerboards. These include products such as Hardiebacker, Durock, Fiberboard, wonderboard and a host of others.
When properly installed on your floor it is an ideal tile substrate for a quality and lasting installation. Notice I said typed “properly installed”? Laying them down on the floor and shooting drywall screws through them does not constitute proper installation.
Choose your weapon. I prefer Hardiebacker or Fiberboard. Whichever you choose make sure you get the proper thickness. With rare exception the 1/2″ variety would be the best choice simply because I like to overbuild stuff. With proper floor framing and deflection ratios, though, you can use 1/4″ to minimize height differences. This is not to say that 1/2″ adds significant sturdiness to your floor – it does not.
You need to realize that cement backerboards, or just about any tile flooring substrate, does not add deflection stability to your floor. That is the up and down movement in your floor when you walk, jump, or use a pogo stick on your floor. The backerboards will not significantly diminish that movement. This needs to be addressed by adjusting your floor joists and framing – not by adding stuff on top of them. If your floor is bouncy without the backerboards it will still be bouncy with them.
Bouncy is not good for tile. (There’s a sentence I never thought I would say type.) I will, however, address deflection ratio in another post.
Start by ‘dry fitting’ all your pieces. This simply means cut and lay your pieces into the room without attaching them. Get all your pieces cut, holes cut out, and doorways undercut to fit and lay everything in there just like it will be when installed. This saves a load of time, mess, and headaches.
The joints in backerboards should be staggered. that just means that none of the seams should line up across the room and no four corners should be placed together. By staggering the seams you add strength to the installation simply by not having a significant weak point in the substrate.
You also want to leave 1/16 to 1/8 inch gap between each sheet – do not butt them together, and around the perimeter. If you butt them together you leave no room for expansion. The backerboard will not expand, but your walls will. If everything is butted tight and your wall expands into the room guess what happens. That’s right, your dog may burst into flames and no one wants that! It will also cause your floor to pop loose and possibly ‘tent’ or peak at the seams.
Beneath the backerboards you need thinset. Just about any thinset will work but you need to have it there. skipping this step virtually eliminates the purpose of preparing your substrate for tile – you may as well go grab that three dollar bag and start setting tile now. You need it – really.
Now that you have them all laid in there properly pick one side of the room to start on and pull a row out. You should only pull out one row at a time to place thinset beneath. That way you can replace them easier and in the proper position. If you pull out the entire room you may get to the last piece and discover everything has shifted 1/2″ and the last piece needs to be cut again. Not really a big deal but you won’t realize it until the backside of it is covered with thinset and you now need to pull it up, wipe the thinset off the wall from pulling it up, cut it, clean the thinset off your saw, snuff out the flames engulfing your dog (again), and replace it. It’s a bit easier just to pull one row at a time.
You need to trowel thinset onto your floor. I cannot overemphasize this (well, I could but you’d get sick of hearing it). This step is imperative for a proper tile installation. The thinset is not meant to ‘stick down’, adhere, or otherwise attach your backerboard to your subfloor. It is simply put in place to eliminate voids beneath your backerboard. Once laid into the thinset bed the floor becomes a solid, fully supported substrate for your tile – that’s what you want.
If you have an air pocket or some certain spot in your floor that is not level or flat with the surrounding area and you simply screw your backerboard onto it this will create a weak spot in your floor. Constantly stepping on that spot will, over time, loosen the screw and your floor will move.
When your floor moves your grout cracks. When your grout cracks your tile may become loose. When your tile becomes loose your tile may crack. When your tile cracks your dog will burst into flames – again. Put thinset beneath your backerboard. And put your dog out.
Once you have the area fully covered with thinset you can lay your backerboards into the bed of thinset and screw it down. DO NOT use drywall screws! Let me repeat that – THAT! Drywall screws are not made, nor are they sturdy enough for your flooring. You will either bust the heads of the screws off or be unable to countersink them into the backerboard. Hard to get a tile to lay flat over the head of a screw.
There are screws made specifically for cement backerboards. You should be able to find them at any hardware or big box store. They have grooves on the underside of the head which will dig into the backerboard and create its own ‘hole’ in which to countersink the head as it is screwed in. How cool is that? If you look closely at the photo you can see the ‘grooves’ beneath the head. They are more expensive than drywall screws – just so you know. But you need to use them.
Each manufacturer has their own specific spacing instructions for screwing down the backerboards – follow them – really. Some say every 12″ and some want every 6 – 8 inches. The board you use will determine the spacing. (And its right there on the sticker so don’t tell me you couldn’t find it.)
Start your screws in the center of the board and work out. This eliminates undue stresses on the boards. If you screw all the way around the outside and it is not perfectly flat you are going to have to release that pressure somewhere and it
won’t happen until you have all that pretty tile on top of it. Working from the center out eliminates that. It would probably never, ever be a problem but if you’re anything like me your installation would be the millionth one for that one in a million occurrence.
Your floor is probably too thick (should be) for the backer screw to actually penetrate into the floor joist. If not, or just to be safe, do not place screws into the area above the floor joists. The plywood or chipboard which makes up your floor will expand and contract at a different rate and, more than likely, in different directions than your joists. If you screw your backer into the ply and into the joist six inches over it will cause inconsistent movement – no good. Do not screw your backerboard into your joists.
After I have all my floor down I will go back and double the screws around every seam. Just put another screw between every screw along the seams. It helps me sleep better at night.
The last thing you need to do is tape your seams. Get an ‘alkali resistant’ mesh tape – similar to drywall tape – and place it over all your seams in your floor. Then mix up some thinset and trowel it over the tape with the flat side of your trowel. Just like taping and mudding drywall. This will make your floor one large monolithic structure and lock it all together. You want alkali resistant tape so it will not break down due to chemicals present in most thinsets. I do not have photos of this because I do it as I set tile.
That’s it! Congratulations, you now have a perfect floor for your perfect tile installation. When installing floor tile – or any tile for that matter – the most important aspect of the installation is always the preparation. Everything beneath your tile is important, if any one aspect is done incorrectly it may compromise the integrity of your installation. Take your time and do it correctly, you will be much happier for it.
Now go put your dog out.
I have 1/2″ ply down in my bathroom and am planning on putting more plywood over it to get my required 1 1/8″ minimum before putting down thinset, 1/4″ cement board, then tile. So does 1/2″ ply (15/32″) plus 5/8″ ply (19/32″) add up to 1 1/18″ or not? Do I need a real 1 1/8″? Also, I read somewhere else to put down tarpaper over my subfloor before putting down the thinset to keep the wood from prematurely absorbing the moisture out of the mix. Is this necessary? Thanks
Hey Woody,
That combination will be fine. You do not want to put down tar paper, that’s only under a mudbed.
We are having problems with a bathroom floor – there is no thinset between the backer board and the plywood. Any way to correction this WITHOUT pulling up the backer board?
Hi Maureen,
Unfortunately no, there isn’t. The backer needs to be removed.
This by far has been the most thurough how-to explaination I have ever researched on the internet. thank you so much!
What size galvanized nails should I use to attach 1/2″ hardibacker to my flooring? 1.5″?
Hey Jon,
Yup. 1 1/2″.
Roger,
The hardibacker is all installed with thinset underneath. I noticed that some of the joints between the hardibacker are not exactly flush. Is there a way to minimize this? When taping can I float it out a bit to reduce any hump effect when applying the tile? I would guess there is 1/8 inch difference between some of the sheets.
Did’ja install it drunk?
Yes, you can float it out with thinset as you tape and mud the seams.
As a matter of fact, only the sheets installed after 5:00 have this issue for some reason.
I have the same problem. Weird, right?
Hello, I started laying cement board and have finished two rooms before I realized I may have screwed up seriously. I used regular mortar mix instead of thinset. I am now going to buy modified thinset to finish the other two rooms. do I have to rip out all the hard work I completed or will it be ok? Thanks-Tim
Hey Tim,
Nope, leave it. It’ll be fine.
Thank you for the reply Roger, should I buy the versabond or continue to use the regular mortar mix? thank you.
I would go with the versabond.
Hi Roger,
The DensShield tile backer surrounding my bathtub ends about 1/4″ above the tub flange. This leaves about a 1″ gap from the bottom of the backer to the tub’s top horizontal surface. The field tiles I’m using are quite large and this gap doesn’t pose a problem. However, my accent tile is a 5/8″ x 5/8″ glass mosaic that I’m running in a 6″-wide column down through the shower fixtures.
I was thinking of filling the gap with mesh tape and mortar but, am concerned that the interior material of the DensShield (some sort of modified gypsum) will wick moisture. Do you have any ideas on how I can support this mosaic at the very bottom? Thanks so much.
Hey Ben,
I imagine your glass is thinner than your field tile, no? If so then you can bond the accent strip to ditra, 1/4″ backerboard or something similar and bond it to the wall in one piece. You can also use the denshield and seal the bottom of it with silicone.
Hi Roger,
I like your idea of the Ditra backing the mosaic and I’ve gone on to read your article on leveling tile inserts of different thickness by mounting the tile to the felt side of the Ditra (very clever, btw). I’m going to attempt it but, I’m not sure of what type of thinset to use. My head is spinning a little with all the seemingly contradictory information out there regarding evaporation and impervious surfaces. For example, on their website, Schluter indicates the use of latex-modified thinset between Ditra and pre-existing vinyl flooring but, UNmodified between it and ceramic tile — owing to the inability for moisture to evaporate. To me, these are both situations where moisture could not escape and so, unmodified would make sense.
I’m particularly unsure about my specific application. Should I go:
DensShield – unmodified (dove-tail side) – Ditra – modified (felt side) – glass mosaic? (DensShield is water resistant but, says to use modified thinset to set ceramic tiles.)
Help?
Hey Ben,
Use modified for all of it. It’ll be fine.
Hi Roger, just following the continuing conversation and think that what I’m hearing is that Ditra can be used directly over plywood as an alternative to durock or hardibacker? If that’s so, I might add additional plywood and then use Ditra in attempt to control the finished height of the tile. .
Hi Larry,
Yes, it should be used in place of cement backerboard.
I have an old house floor joist 16 on center with 5/8 tongue osb floor I want to lay tile on this kitchen floor. What is the best means of supporting it? Do I need to remove the osb and put down plywood or can I lay over it, or ditra over it or backer? What do you suggest?
Thanks If you need more info such as joist size and span I will have to go measure when returning home.
thanks
Hey Moto,
Most floor structures with 16″ o.c. joists have the minimum L360 deflection. You do need another layer of 1/2″ plywood over that osb. Once you get that down you can to over it with your choice of tile substrate, be it backer (you can use 1/4″), ditra or whatever.
Thanks Roger. A few follow up questions to your response
1. Does it matter if I use 1/2″ hardibacker? I assume not since it is not a substrate?
2. If I put down the plywood, would I still want to leave space between each sheet (obviously around perimeter) prior to nailing and stagger similar to hardibacker?
3. Can I put down the 3/8 or 1/2 inch plywood then put down Ditra? If I put down the plywood, I don’t want to use hardibacker otherwise my first step down to my basement will be out of code. (allegedly)
I would like to put 3/8 plywood down, Ditra, then my tile.
Also, I don’t have a dog, so it can’t burst into flames. No cat either…
1. Nope, you can use 1/4″ if you want to.
2. Yes, seams offset and 1/16″ – 1/8″ gap between sheets. Fill with silicone before installing thinset beneath your backerboard.
3. Yes, you can just install ditra over the ply.
Good news on the dog (or lack of…)
Great website. I am building a new house, and we will be installing approximately 1,000 sq ft of ceramic tile (hardwood look). Each piece is approximately 6″x20″.
I have a few questions:
1. Deflection: Is there a way to calculate deflection based off the load capacity based off the blueprints? It shows the floor being 40lbs live load, 12 lbs dead load. The trusses are engineered and support beams are a combination of steel and glue lam beams. I know you would need more information on the wood to calculate the deflection if the load capacity does not work.
2. Substrate. The current floor is 3/4″ OSB. I plan on putting down thinset and 1/4″ hardibacker, then laying the ceramic tile down.
Does this application sound like it will be sufficent to prevent cracking and a proper substrate with adequate deflection?
Hey Jon
1. Yup. Go to John Bridge’s Deflecto and input your specs. A 40lb. live and 12 dead translates to about 420 if I remember correctly.
2. Although your deflection is adequate for your installation you’ll still need a minimum of 1 1/8″ thick substrate below your backerboard. You’ll need at least 3/8″ of ply above the osb (1/2″ is better), then your backer and tile.
I’m installing mosaic ceramic tile on bathroom floor (have prepped floor with Hardie Board). The tile is the octagon 2″ tiles with the small square tile in between. They are on a 12″ x 12″ sheet. My concern is that there is no physical sheet like a net, instead the tiles are joined together by a little blob of adhesive or glue on each side. When I lay and set the tile, I’m worried that the thin-set will come thought the openings between the little tiles where the grout should go. How do I handle this? I don’t want to have to clean out every grout line before I grout.
Thanks
Hey Steve,
Use a v-notched trowel. A 1/4″ x 1/4″ v-notch is best for those types of tile. You can also use a sponge as you set the tile to wipe the thinset out of the grout lines.
Great DIY article, plus entertaining!
Once I put down the thinset, then the backerboard, then screw it down, how long before one’s wife should walk on it? (Since this is the only functioning bathroom…)
Hey Mitch,
You can walk on it right after you’re done screwing it down.
Can I put self leveling on top of the hardi backer bouard
Hey Lou,
Provided your backer is down correctly with thinset beneath it then yes, you can put slc over it.
LMAO “your dog may burst into flames”
Hi Roger great site learned alot. Im redoing my 5X8 foot bathroom since the wall facing the bathtub collapsed. Just plain drywall with tile over it. I ripped up the floor tiles and again just tiled right on the plywood subfloor. So im ripping it all out and installing BC 5/8 plywood with 1/4 hardi backerboard. My question is to make it waterproof what options do i have that are cheap but effective. RedGard is pricey!
Thanks
Al
Hi Al,
If you’re looking to make the floor waterproof – it isn’t really necessary unless you treat your bathroom like a roman bath.
Redgard is about the cheapest you’ll get to waterproof it. You may want to check out mapei’s liquid – aquadefense, it tends to be a bit cheaper.
If you have the 5/8″ ply directly to the floor joists you’ll need to add another layer of plywood to that floor, 5/8″ isn’t gonna do it. You CAN use 3/8″ if you must, but 1/2″ would be ideal.
Hi Roger thanks, I guess you are right its a bathtub and now a shower so i guess the waterproof of the floor isn’t really necessary.
Would 3/4″ plywood be enough and should i still add another layer for stability? My issue i guess is that im also laying down 1/4 cement backerboard and then tiles so height might be a issue. so you recommending 1 1/4″ of plywood as the subfloor?
thanks in advance.
Technically 1 1/8″ is the minimum of subfloor thickness beneath your substrate 9backer or membrane). That said, I have done several smaller floors with 3/4″ ply then the backer or membrane and haven’t had any problems. Doesn’t mean you won’t, just means I haven’t.
Be sure to put thinset beneath your backerboard.
Hello Roger, lots of good tips on your site but one I haven’t yet seen (anywhere!). I’ve removed an old vinyl floor in my kitchen but have not removed the mahogany underlay plywood. I’d like to leave the underlay and install 1/4″ Hardibacker over it with thinset and screws. The sub-floor is 5/8″ beneath the underlay. Is that OK? If so should I screw the underlay down to the sub-floor (it is already nailed on a 6″ spacing)? Lots of questions but I don’t want the dog to go ‘woof’ the wrong way.
Hey Brad,
You’ve probably seen it but didn’t recognize it.
What you have, the mahogany plywood, is likely luan. If it is less than 1/4″ thick it’s luan – and it needs to be removed. You need a minimum of 1 1/8″ plywood beneath your substrate (1/4″ hardi), so you’ll need another layer of 1/2″ plywood there. If what you have is not actually luan, and is 3/8″ or thicker, then you can leave it and install your hardi (with thinset) and screw it down as you’ve described. With that spacing you shouldn’t need to screw that layer down any more. The hardi screws will handle that.
Thanks for all the info…its great! I have a ceramic floor kitchen. Just recently the tile floor buckled leaving a speed bump in the middle of my kitchen. Removing the tiles shows that the tile is installed directly on 1/2 in plywood.
If I were to retile the kitchen, is it best to remove the plywood and lay some other substrate down (Ditra)? Is there anyway to avoid removing the plywood?
Hi DK,
Yes, you can remove the tile from the plywood (morons!) and install ditra directly over it or thinset then backerboard directly over it. No need to remove the plywood as long as it is plywood and not particle board or some other such garbage.
Hello, I am installing tile over 6″ diagonal floor boards in a bath. Can I put down 1/2″ backer board as a substrate, or do I need plywood or OSB or ?
Thank you
Hey James,
You need a minimum of 1/2″ plywood or osb before your backerboard. You also need thinset between the backer and plywood (or OSB), but you already knew that.
Hi Roger, Another question. Is it a good idea to use Hardibacker over a concrete slab? I have seen a Primer T and a Primer L….Do I use one of these on the concrete before the layer of mortar and then backerboard? Also there is a significant unevenness in the slab. Should I use a self leveling cement first and then backer board? My thought was to level it 1st, but some guy told me I can do it after I put in the backer board.
Thanks, Love the site, so do my dogs:)
Hi Joan,
Backerboard is not made for, nor should it ever be used for a substrate OVER a concrete slab. If you want to level it use the self-leveler and just bond the tile or membrane directly to it. Forget the backerboard, it always creates problems. I don’t know who the ‘some guy’ is – but stop asking him for advice.
What a wonderful resource!
I had some floor tiled installed less than a year ago and the grout lines are starting to crack. I had the installer come look and they think it may be the sub floor not properly attached to the floor joists. When they installed the backer board, they used roofing nails when I read that they should have used screws. Could this be the problem? Should they have addressed the sub floor issue, if there was one, before installing the tile? Your response is appreciated.
I’m just preparing for the next step when they come back to see if the sub floor is the problem. Is there a fix for this?
Hey Todd,
Roofing nails are an approved fastener for backerboard. I don’t like them, but I don’t write the specs.
The likely problem is lack of thinset beneath the backerboard. If there were areas of the initial subfloor which were not properly attached to the joists then yes, they should have addressed that before installing the backer. Do they have thinset beneath the backer? If not – that’s your problem. It won’t be fixed unless it’s removed and installed properly.
Hi! Thanks for the great info!
Question: What if the floor under the hardibacker board is not flat? Can I used additional thinset to make it level under the hardi?
Context: We pulled out the existing tile and cement board backer in our kitchen (~9′ x 9′). Under that is what I’m afraid is an old layer of asbestos containing vinyl type flooring covering most, but not all of the floor (up to where the cabinets went on one side). The previous installer used some sort of adhesive (not sure what) that is *very* difficult to remove in spots. So if I leave the old flooring, the part without it where the cabinets were is not the same height. In addition I just can’t seem to get all the old adhesive compound off the rest of the old flooring so it is not flat. Is thinset the proper thing to use in this case or should another compound be used first?
THANKS!
Hi Bhall,
Yes, additional thinset will work fine. Spread out your thinset and lay the backer into it and use a straight-edge or level to get it all flat. Then let it sit overnight so the thinset can cure. The next day screw it all down. This way your floor stays flat. If you try to screw it down at the same time you’ll end up with a roller-coaster (a messy one
).
Oh boy, here goes….
I have a portable building that I want to tile. Quarry tile that is 1/2 inch thick. the floor joists are 12 inc on center with a double layer of plywood. well I went and got the half inch backer board and placed it on the floor with a tile on top then went to open the steel entrance door and well you guessed it, the door hit the tile. crap. now what? Do I really need cement given the fact that I have a beefy sub-floor? what are your thoughts on this?
Roger,
We just finished installing Hardibacker on our floor in preperation for tiling the bathroom. We put thinset below the backer board and have secured the boards with the backer board screws (just like the ones in your picture). But for some reason they are not countersinking and I am concerned that they will be a problem when it is time to tile. Can we compensate with more thinset below the tiles to address the problem or would you suggest a different route? Thanks so much.
Hi Jennifer,
Yes, you can compensate for that height with thinset as you install the tile. There are two different types of backer screws, one for hardi and like boards and one for durock type boards, you may have used the other one.
No big deal.
Thanks so much Roger. The tile is down now and looks great! We have now moved on to tiling the corner tub surround. In our original plan we were going to have a wood skirt on it but decided on the field tile along with some mosaic glass and stone. Would you recommend attaching the 1/4″ Hardiboard directly to the wood frame around the tub, followed by thinset and then setting the tile?
Many thanks!!
Jennifer
Hey Jennifer,
Yes, on a tub surround that will work just fine.
Roger,
I just installed tile into our kitchen with someone who presumably had a lot of experience (general contractor for decades). We just finished a few days ago and there is a crunching sound under several of the tiles. They are 18″ tiles, the sub-floor was two pieces of plywood (or whatever it is) thick, and we screwed down 1/4″ concrete layer on top of that (no thin-set in between the concrete boards and the wood flooring, screws about every 5″). We then put down thin-set and the tiles.
Any suggestions on what to do or how to fix it? Could this problem be because of a lack of thinset under the concrete backer board?
Thanks so much!!!
Hey Joshua,
Yes, it could be due to lack of thinset beneath your backer, which would lead to unsupported areas, which would cause movement when those areas are walked upon, which would cause thinset to crack out, which would cause a crunchy sound…
Remove the tiles which are crunchy (never thought I’d type that…) and see if you have full coverage or what is cracked. Then come back here and tell me what you see, I’ll tell you how much or how little should be done to fix it.
Deal?
Roger,
Found your awesome site today. Thank you for providing so much useful and helpful information!
I am replacing the tub as part of a bathroom remodel. The subfloor is 1 1/4″ plywood and level. I am planning on using 1/4″ Hardiboard for underlayment. My question is should I extend the Hardiboard under the tub? I am concerned the Hardiboard may compress by the weight of the tub over time, especially along the narrow skirt along the front facing side of tub. Alternatively, if the tub is installed on the plywood and Hardiboard is used up to the edge of the tub, what is the appropriate method for ensuring a water tight seal along the seam? Thanks.
Hi Carl,
Doesn’t make any difference, you can do it either way. I’ve never heard nor seen a problem with hardi compressing beneath a tub. Doesn’t mean it wouldn’t happen – just means I’ve never seen it. If you install the hardi up to the tub leave a 1/8″ gap between the two. Tubs move a lot, it’ll squeak. I’m sure you’ve heard tubs do that before.
A water tight seal against hardi is not an issue since hardi is not waterproof.
If you want a waterproof area in front of the tub you’ll need to install some sort of waterproof membrane on top of the hardi and silicone between it and the tub to seal it.