One of the most asked questions by do-it-yourselfer’s is whether they should use caulk or grout in the corners. Industry standards state that a flexible material be used at all changes of plane. But! – if you ask a hundred different professionals you will more than likely receive fifty of each answer. While there are pros and cons of each, I am in the camp that uses caulk. That being the case, I will discuss using grout first. I’m backwards like that.
Using Grout at Changes of Plane
While the phrase “changes of plane” may sound a bit uppity or technical – it’s not. It simply describes the corner or edge of any surface that changes direction such as a corner, a wall to a floor, or a wall to the tub edge. Many professionals simply grout that corner as they do any other space between the tiles. There are a couple of things that must be taken into consideration before choosing this method.
- Your walls and the framing of your shower must be absolutely rock solid. I do mean absolutely. Grout is a cement-based product and as such is not meant to flex. If your wall moves your grout will eventually crack – it’s that simple.
- The space between the tiles at the change of plane must be large enough (for sanded grout) or small enough (for non-sanded grout) to be able to support the grout. That simply means that if you are using sanded grout you cannot butt the tiles against each other at the corner and expect to be able to force grout into it. It will not stay if the grout has no grout line to hold onto – if it is simply attempting to grab onto the face of the tiles at a 90 degree angle. There must be a grout line at the changes of plane.
- You must decide you are going to use grout at the changes of plane before you install the tile. You can then make sure to leave a line for the grout as well as adding additional support for any spots that may move even the tiniest bit (which it should not do anyway).
If you have taken the above points into consideration and still decide to use grout in the corners – go ahead. The big advantages of using grout here is that it will match all the grout lines and it will never have to be replaced. So although extra care must be taken to properly use grout at your plane changes, the advantages for some people are worth the extra time.
Using Caulk at Changes of Plane
There are several advantages to using caulk in corners and any other area where there may be a plane change or where tile meets another material such as your bathtub or sink.
- Unlike grout you are able to use caulk in a corner where tiles are butted against each other. It will stick to the face of the tile rather than needing a space between the tiles to grab.
- Caulk is flexible. If there is any movement the caulk is flexible enough to move with it and remain in place. It will not crack out or fall off.
- Caulk is waterproof – grout is not. Water will collect in corners such as where your tile meets the tub more than it will on the face of the tile.
- If your caulk does crack out or need to be replaced it is easily done.
The only two disadvantages to using caulk instead of grout are that you need to periodically remove and replace the caulk and, depending on your choice of grout, you may not be able to find a caulk that matches exactly. The first reason I consider to simply be regular maintenance and the latter is less of a problem since most major grout manufacturers sell matching caulk.
When to Use Grout
The only time I will use grout for a plane change is when I am using epoxy grout. Epoxy grout is bulletproof! OK, maybe it’s not bulletproof but you can hit it with a hammer a couple of times before it chips. (Don’t do that.) If you are using epoxy go ahead and grout the corners and changes of plane as well. Although it is not flexible it will grab the tile well enough to prevent it from splitting or cracking out. Precautions must still be taken but the Epoxy is strong enough to withstand normal structural movement.
How to Decide
Given the above parameters I believe caulk to always be the best choice. What you must understand about tile installation is no matter where you are installing the tile, it is always a structure that moves, no matter how minutely. Concrete moves, (the ground beneath it) that’s why it has expansion joints – to control where the movement goes. Most shower installations are over a wood structure of some sort. Whether you have drywall, backerboard, or a membrane, if you go far enough behind the tile, you’ll find wood. Wood moves, it’s just a fact of life. Humidity, weather, even the structure’s foundation all affect how much it moves. By taking proper precautions you can minimize the movement, but it’s still gonna move. Taking structural movement into consideration caulk is, for me, the logical choice.
Hi Roger,
Thank you for this invaluable service.
Last year I had the backsplash in my kitchen done and sanded grout was used. I’ve just noticed that the first bead (line) of grout between the tile and granite counter top is breaking up and pieces of broken grout are laying on the countertop in different areas. The areas where this is happening aren’t exposed to water. What should I do? I appreciate any advise you can provide. Thanks.
Delores
Hi Delores,
That is a change of plane, where two planes meet which are oriented in different directions. It should have been siliconed rather than grouted. Differential movement at plane changes will crack the grout (but you knew that), silicone can compensate for that movement – grout won’t. It has nothing to do with water. The grout needs to be scraped out and siliconed used.
Hi,
Just finished reading the postings. I have an enclosed shower with 2 tile walls and 2 glass walls. Plastic/composite pan. I have removed the entire shower enclosure, pan, and walls (green board). Also had to remove insulation, all water damaged/molded. Treated the wall (outside wall, vinyl siding covered) and killed all mold. After replacing the insulation, should I install a vapor barrier? (There was no barrier before). What should I use if needed? Does it need to extend inside the lip of the drain pan? What type of backer-board should be used and does that butt to the lip of the pan (as it was and sealed) or extend over the lip inside the pan? (Sealed or not)
Any tips on water proofing where the fixtures (hot/cold water valves) come through the wall?
I ask because from reading your posts, the builder did it ALL wrong.
This is a first time attempt for me in home repair/improvement, any and all help is needed.. Thanks
Hi Roy,
If you intend your barrier to be your waterproofing then yes, it needs to be there and it needs to overlap the pan flange. I stop the backer directly above the flange unless you can have flush walls with it overlapping. Do not seal the backer, seal the BACK of your barrier to the front of the flange. Waterproofing fixtures.
Hey Roger,
Love the tile tips. Worth every penny (which I could have spent on beer!). I only wish I came across your site about 2 years ago when I started my first bathroom remodel. Learned more useful information from you than from a highly rated book on Amazon…
I’m on my 2nd bathroom now, and am going simple for the bathtub/shower surround. Glazed white subway tile, white grout. Couple questions about these:
1. The subway tile has a lot of different matching trim pieces to work with. I am thinking about using the cove base tiles for the two inside corners of the shower walls – so the corners don’t have a line. I could caulk the joint between that tile’s short side and the next tile to try to maintain a flex joint between walls…. but since it’d be set in thinset spanning the corner not sure if caulk is even needed, or more importantly if I can even do this at all. What do you think?
2. I bought lugged tiles. The grout lines are teeny, which I like. But how do you clean thinset out of or apply grout sealer to those skinny little lines? I want to get this figured out before I start setting any tiles.
Thanks!
Alex
Hi Alex,
1. You could as long as you only have thinset bonding it to the wall on the long side of the tile, not on both walls spanning the corner. Those cove are made to have the thinset only on the backside of the field – not on the foot portion.
2. You either don’t get thinset in the grout lines or clean them out with a sponge as you set them before it cures. Seal the entire installation, tiles and all, the sealer will buff off the tiles and leave your grout lines sealed.
Hello Roger, we have tiled a shower and the bathroom floors using the Schluter products, Kerdi shower and ditra floors. Were using Laticretes Pro Premium epoxy. We used bull nose tiles for the baseboards in the bathroom.
My question is: Do we use caulk or grout at the top and bottom of the bullnose baseboard?
Hi Mark,
Use caulk or silicone on your base.
I have a walk-in shower that has cracked at the transition line where the wall and floor meet. The wall is ceramic tile 16 inch x 16 inch the floor is river rock. That transition line is grouted. The shower pan is on a plywood floor. What would you recommend to fix this problem? (this transition line will be wet when showering)
Hi Gerald,
It cracked because it’s grouted, it needs to be silicone. You need to remove the grout that’s left and replace it with silicone.
Hi Roger,
I am trying to re-caulk my tub, but when I remove the old caulk, there is grout coming out with it. So now I have a gap between the tub and wall tiles, so there is a gap where the planes change.
Question: Should I re-grout and then place silicone caulking over it, or just caulk the line. Will the tiles slide down (or get damaged) if I don’t put grout back in between? And will the caulking be enough to stay intackt if I don’t use grout?
Thanks in advance,
CJ
Hi CJ,
There should be no grout in there at all. You need to remove all of it and fill the entire space with silicone. The tiles should not move at all, and silicone will stay intact by itself.
Roger –
After reading previous post I think I answered one of my questions….New house, nice tile shower, grout at changes of planes and cracks!!!! I made the mistake of grouting over the old grout which I will dig up this weekend and repair with caulk. What is the best way to take up the old grout? My second problem lies near the cracks of the grout – I have noticed these 1/4″ black worms!!! In your 19 years have your ever run across this problem? Will eliminating the cracks solve this issue?
Hi Matt,
Yes, I have run across them. They are actually (likely) larvae of the ‘drain fly’. They tend to be present when there is stagnant or standing water. They also feed on organic matter found in shower drains. The first thing to do is clean the gunk out of your drain.
The grout at plane changes is why it’s cracking, but you already knew that. Plugged weep holes or lack of preslope are the two biggest reasons for standing water in a shower base. If cleaning the gunk doesn’t get rid of them then it’s likely due to one of those. Eliminating the cracks MAY solve the issue with the black worms, but if it’s due to one of the reasons above it likely won’t.
Roger,
You’ve been great help in my tiling endeavors/shower construction. I’m almost done. (GEEZUS, this is hard work!) Two more questions:
1) I installed pebbles on the shower floor. I guess I should have caulked the bottom of the walls before installing those puppies, but I didn’t, and yesterday when I caulked, it was difficult at best. Used best efforts but I could not get the caulk behind all of the stones; some were too close to the wall. Should I be concerned about this? (Permabase substrate, covered by two coats of b-6000 before tiling.)
2) I will grout stone floor today. As you warned me, there will be a LOT of grout. How long should I wait before a) allowing my plumber to finish install of fixtures/run water in the shower and b) sealing the grout and stones? (I don’t know if these stones are actually sealed or just polished, but they are shiny. Doesn’t say on package.)
And okay, a third question, I used Crater Lake Arena porcelain tile on the walls (not shiny/with a lot of texture), glass & stone mosaic accent, and those pebbles on floor. Mapei grout to match. Can I use the same sealer for it all?
THANKS A MILLION.
Hi Charlene,
1. No, you do not need to worry about that. With a shower floor water will run from the walls behind the tile to the drain – it’s supposed to. Silicone in that instance is for aesthetic reasons more than anything else.
2. Wait a day to a day-and-a-half for the fixtures, the amount of time before sealer depends on the sealer. It’ll be on the bottle.
Yes, you can use the same sealer for all of it.
Roger,
My shower has a partial height wall (7 foot tall, 22 inches wide) that separates the vanity from the shower. It will have a glass door attached to it, and it will be tiled all the way up.
I have done several things to stiffen the wall, including:
Firmly attaching it to the adjacent 2×6 wall.
Adding blocking to the adjacent 2×6 wall (helped significantly)
Stiffening the partial wall with double studs and blocking.
1/2″ threaded rod connecting the outer studs of the wall down through the floor and to the floor joists below. Lots o tension.
All of this has helped, and the wall is pretty stiff, but it definitely moves if you pound your fist on the top corner.
1: Should I be concerned about this?
2: Any suggestions on how to make it stiffer?
3. Would you suggest taking the wall all the way up to the ceiling and attaching to the floor joists above? (we don’t want to for aesthetic reasons, but we also don’t want cracked tile / grout / whatever)
I will try to post pictures.
Pictures:
http://duckisabird.smugmug.com/Gaylord/Shower/35824441_TW3jQ9
In addition to being a partial height wall with a glass door….this wall also houses a fairly tall niche and the shower controls, which prevents me from adding a lot of additional blocking.
I have read several places suggesting a sheet of plywood on both sides will be a big help. I might have the space budget for that, but I have to check.
The wall is pretty stiff already, and if I brace it with the adjacent vanity and add the plywood cladding, there is no doubt it will get stiffer.
My main problem is that I don’t have the experience to know if what I have is good enough or not. I realize I’m asking the impossible, but is my wall (the one you can’t see/touch/feel) sturdy enough?
Hi Steve,
Every one of your questions can be answered by this: Once you tile the walls and the thinset cures it will be at least twice as stiff as it currently is. Seriously. Once the 1/2 wall is tiled you won’t be able to move it. Same as the regular walls. DO NOT use plywood cladding. A large wooden sponge behind your tile is the last thing you need.
Hi, I need to silicone the new tub, but one of the tiles has more of a grout gap than the others. Do I have to apply a thicker bead over that area only or should I do same size bead all across based on thickest needed. Thanks.
Hi Lyndon,
You can have it thicker there.
Hi Roger,
I have a tiled shower stall with tiles on the walls and floor. There is a crack line on the grout in the transitional joint between the walls and the floor. (1) Do I need to seal the crack? (2) If the answer to #1 is Yes, can I apply silicone caulk over the existing grout by first scoring the grout? (3) Do I need to leave weep holes? Thanks very much.
Derek
Hi Derek,
You need to remove the grout from any change of plane, that includes the wall-floor transition, and fill it with silicone. Do not put silicone over the grout, the grout will continue to crack and will break the seal of the silicone. If you have a tiled floor as well you do not need weep holes, everything should be incorporated with weeping beneath the tile.
Hi Roger,
I’m about to start tiling after installing my cement board and stopped the cement board 1/8 above the tub flange. My question is this, where should stop the thinset, should I thinset the tile to the cement board and tub flange or stop the thinset at the cement board and have the lower inch or so of the tile just hang over the tub flange and then caulk the gap between the tile and tub. Seems to me if the tile is thinset to the cement board and tub that will cause problems if the tub moves or wall moves since they are now locked together with thinset.
Hi Mike,
Only bond the tile to the cement board with thinset. You are correct, it will crack off of the acrylic and cause problems.
Hi Roger.
We’ve got a dramatically leaking shower (tiled walls and ceramic tray). The tray seems to be have no flange! and is very shallow. Is there anything other than 100% silicone you can suggest?
Hi Rusty,
The only thing I would suggest is replacing your shower. Silicone is not going to stop it from leaking.
I no longer use caulking as it causes most bathrooms to be covered in mould.
The problem being when removing the old mouldy caulking tilers use razor knife or stanley knife. This cuts the back wall and the backing is no longer water proof. Mould spreads behind tiles and paint work creating a bathroom full of mould. One then must re-plaster the whole bathroom. With modern glues and grouts cracking is kept at a minimum and if need be scraping the old grout by 5mm you can just as easily re-grout much more cost effective and much easier. I have found today most great professional tilers grout.
That is simply a matter of incorrect procedure being utilized when replacing the caulking. Standards dictate that flexible sealant be used in all changes of plane. To each his own.
100% silicone caulking at all plane changes and you’ll never have to find yourself digging away cracked grout or moldy grout. All the tile professionals I work with and all the custom showers I’ve installed over the past 15 years have all used silicone and even the white sealants are nearly as white as day 1. There’s a lot of wrong choices for caulking on the shelf. And the acrylic latex ones are not meant for wet areas nor are siliconized latex choices. And the color matched caulking as far as sanded or sanded: unless you order the silicone version: also not it.
Anything other than 100% silicone, regrouting and or digging out the wrong stuff should be expected. I like to do things once.
I also meant to say that if “the bathroom is covered in mold” as you say, that suggest its on walls and ceilings as well? if so Thats a moisture problem not related to choice of caulking. A fan venting outside (not into an attic) is needd. If you are referring to moldy caulk: it wasn’t silicone.
I found your tips very helpful. Regarding your comments about epoxy grout, what are your thoughts on a “Single Component Grout?” I have one by Fusion Pro, described as “Combines the Best Benefits of Cement and Epoxy Grouts.” Do you like this for use in corners, or do you recommend caulk?
HI Ken,
I don’t use single component grouts. Fusion pro is a good one, I just don’t use them. Even when using them you need to silicone changes of plane.
Great Site! I have a difficult problem. Tiled shower was installed, and the tile cuts on the wall/floor transition were pretty bad (see pics here http://imgur.com/a/fLo1V ). This is now my third attempt in several years to properly seal the corners and not show what to do. You can see how uneven the cuts are, where some of them are almost 3/16″ wide. I have previously caulked ( I think with not a good caulk – acrylic?) It got all moldy and hard after several months. So, do I put grout in the large gaps and then silicone caulk over it, or can I fill such a large gap directly with silicone only? Thanks!
Hi Leor,
Get some backer rod, which is round foam you can stuff into the gaps to fill most of the space, then silicone right over the top of it. You can find it at any big box store.
Hi Roger
Love your site! I used it quite a bit as I worked my way through ripping out our tub surrounds and replacing them with tile. I was hoping you could clarify something for me. I used hardibacker on the walls, and put a layer of visqueen plastic sheeting behind it as a moisture barrier. I then placed the tile using mortar on the hardibacker. In theory, let’s say some moisture gets through the grout in the tile, then also through the hardibacker. It will hit the visqueen, then just dribble down the plastic to the bottom, where the tub starts. My question is: if I caulk the joint where the tile meets the tub, what happens with the hypothetical moisture that has now accumulated at the bottom of the visqueen? It has no way to escape the wall because there is now a caulk barrier stopping it where the tile meets the tub….is that right? I’d appreciate any help you could give me to understand that.
Thanks again for a great site!!!
John
Hi John,
I wrote this for people like you who think about shit
: Weep holes in tile installations. You’re correct.
Roger,
Your site has been great for my bathroom project. I just had my tub refinished (yay). The refinisher pointed out that my spacing between the tub and tile is too great for caulk alone and recommends using grout. I agree they are too large (between 1/2″ to 7/8″).
I know, bad on my part
, the problem was my tub had a lip that went up at the edge and the bottom of the tile would have been rubbing against the tub making awful noises.
Either way, I hesitate to take his advice as I know the grout will just crack over time (my tub is cast iron). What is your advice? What if I put some caulk along the edge of the tub and then grouted between the caulk and the edge of the tile?
Hey Jason,
That’s what I was going to tell you to do. Place a good bead of silicone along the tub, let it cure then grout between it and the tile. You may have to put another bead after the grout cures, but it should prevent it from cracking out.
Hey Roger!!!
Do you know where I can buy both Spectralock Pro Plus Epoxy grout and Laticrete Latasil caulk online at the same place?
I hope you werent one of the flood victims.
What a horrible flood.
Jim
Hey Jim!!!!!!!!!!!
If you go to StoneTooling and call their 888 number, tell them what you want and they’ll get it to you faster than you think possible. They carry the silicone, but don’t carry a lot in stock and don’t have it on the site. But you can get it from them.
Hi Roger,
Going to pick up my Spectralock Pro Premium Grout this week and I see you recommend just using the grout for corners and change of plane if you grout with Spectralock. I could do that but Laticrete also carries a matching color caulking for non wet areas (won’t need the Latasil, I’ll just use GE Silicone ll for that part). Should I get sanded or unsanded caulk? I know SPP grout has some fine sand in it but does it look like sanded grout when finished or more smoother like unsanded grout?
Just an additional question. How well do these caulks / silicones match with the grout? From my reading it seems to hit and miss.
All laticrete caulks and silicones I’ve used have been dead-on matches. Some brands are hit or miss, laticrete isn’t one of them in my experience.
Hi Ed,
I actually don’t recommend that, I only state that on some projects where I build the entire shower from the studs out I’ll sometimes do that. You need to take a lot of things into consideration before making that decision. I always use the sanded caulk when I don’t use silicone. When cured it’s difficult to tell the difference between it and the unsanded.
I think you already answered this but which of the Laticrete products would best match the pro premium grout in appearance. Sanded Caulk, Unsanded caulk or Latisil? Or could you say which is best, ok, almost as good?
thanks,
BTW got the floor down today…well 95%…one mess up on the cutting of one tile near the end and I had already returned the tile saw.
The silicone matches the pro premium the best in my opinion. Unsanded would be the next closest. I think you can take a tile down to them and pay them a buck or two to cut the tile for you. They will around here, anyway.
My shower was grouted, and the most of the corners and floor to wall seams are showing cracks. Should I fix these by reapplying grout, or should I use some caulk? Related question, does caulk adhere to grout?
Thanks
Hi Jed,
No, you should not fix it by applying more grout or by applying caulk or silicone over the existing grout. Yes, caulk will stick to grout, but the grout beneath it will continue to crack and will compromise your caulk. You need to dig out the grout from all the changes of plane (corners, wall to floor, etc.) and use caulk or silicone there. It can compensate for movement, grout can not.
Roger,
Got it. Grout on flat surfaces, caulk on change of plane. Using Spectralock Pro Plus Epoxy grout and Laticrete Latasil caulk on 12×24 high gloss rectified porcelain tiles with 1/16″ grout line.
What comes first, the grout or the caulk?
Either one. I normally do the grout first, that way I can silicone right away. If you do it the other way around the silicone needs to cure before grouting.
Hey Roger,
Just looking for some clarification. I have just finished tiling my shower walls (above an acrylic base) with a 12 x 24 porcelain tile and a 3/16 grout line as per product instructions. I am now ready to grout… The tile box says use unsanded but everything else I read says to use sanded for the larger 3/16 gap. Since this is a shower surround is there a better grout (more waterproof, stain resistant etc) that I should be using. Also I planned to grout the corners and have left space there as well to accommodate the grout. When do I seal the grout and what should I use ( I am with the understanding that the porcelain tile doesn’t need to be sealed). Thanks in advance for your advice.
Jeff
Hey Jeff,
You need to use sanded, the tile box is incorrect. The corners should be siliconed, not grouted. If you want to use epoxy it’s a very good choice, but more difficult to install and a hell of a lot more expensive. You can seal the grout if you want, I prefer miracle sealant’s 511 impregnator.
Hi Elf
What do you think about the usage Schluter’s profile for changes of plane? I mean those Schluter-DILEX.
Does it make the tile installation more tricky? It looks like a good idea to me and the cost not that bad.
Thanks much
Joe
Hi Joe,
I like them. They do require a bit more thought on layout and execution, but they work well and look great.
Hi Roger,
So I have a vanity wall in our ensuite I’m about to tile. There is a nice gap for the boards I used (fiberboards) all around the wall. I am not 100% sure what to do to finish the 90 degrees inside corners between my vanity wall and the two adjacent (painted) walls on each side before I tile. I thought of silicone since the tiles would just cover it up, but then I thought the flex could allow the grout of my tiles to crack near the edges later. Paper beads I like best for 90 degree inside corners finished with drywall mud, but thought water from vanity on tile wall could cause issues later. Of course alkali resistant tape with cement mud would be ideal on the tile wall, but then I of course can’t apply it to the other two walls since those are painted walls. In an ideal world maybe an alkali resistant mesh tape with cement mud on the tile wall and drywall mud on the painted wall would be the way to go. So many options my head hurts
help!
Hi JF,
Alkali resistant mesh tape and thinset. Thinset can be sanded and finished just like drywall mud.