And the rest . . . 
Once you have your entire perimeter done you simply need to pack deck mud into the rest of the base from the perimeter to the drain. Once again – beat the hell out of it. Seriously, pack it in there really well. The more dense your floor is the better. You need to ensure that the line of the floor is straight from the wall to the drain all the way around without any major humps or dips. It takes time and patience – use both. This step is critical since this is the substrate your tile will be installed upon.
Once you get the remainder of the deck mud packed into the shower and have it correctly packed and leveled just let it set for at least 12 hours, 24 would be better. Really, leave it alone. There is something about a freshly packed mud bed that makes people want to pick at it – it’s alluring – and a bit disturbing. But you need to leave it alone. So quit poking at it.
After it sets for about 12 hours you can fine tune it, so to speak, if you need to. Any un-flat spots can be scraped, rubbed, or sanded down to flatten them out. You can use regular sandpaper for this – really. Just make sure you have a flat surface from the wall to the drain. FLAT – not level. You want this surface absolutely flat.
If you have not yet done so you can now install your moisture barrier and backerboards. Now that you have a large waterproof box you are ready to install your tile and make it look all pretty. The hard part is finished. As with any proper tile installation the underlying substrates are the most important. Take your time with the preparation, it is imperative. Without proper preparation any tile installation is doomed to fail.
And your dog may burst into flames.
Need More Information?
I now have manuals describing the complete process for you from bare wall studs all the way up to a completely waterproof shower substrate for your tile. If you are tiling your walls and floor you can find that one here: Waterproof shower floor and wall manual.
If you have a tub or pre-formed shower base and are only tiling the walls you can find that one here: Waterproof shower walls manual.
Previous post: How to Create a Shower Floor – Part 4
Next post: Determining the Surface Durability of a Tile
Add a Brilliant Retort
Hi Roger, long time drinker, 2nd time caller. I used the cast iron drain body, not the plastic adjustable thread type. My drain lip is 1/2″ above mud bed, tile is like 3/8″. I’m ready to tile floor with 2″ mosaic. Can I start from the drain and work towards wall (layout lines so I’m square when I hit the wall)? I’m afraid if I start at wall and press firmly into thinset, I will be a hair low by the time I get to drain.
I back buttered all wall & floor tile but found that I cannot back butter mosaic sheets or I will be wearing thinset. Do you agree? (when I back butter, I get some extra thickness in the thinset)
How do you cut 2″ porclein around round drain. I have a diamond jig saw blade and strong fingers. Sound good?
Thanks!
Ed – Tustin, CA
Hey Ed,
You can (and should) start at the drain and work toward the walls. I normally dry-lay all my shower floor tile first, then pull it up and install it one section at a time. That way I know everything fits well. You can not backbutter mosaics. (Well, you can, but…)
The jigsaw blade will work, I cut it on my wet saw, but that takes practice – a lot of it.
I’ve also used a grinder. Whatever you’re comfortable with. If you need more thickness at the drain or wherever just use a larger trowel or float out the floor with thinset to the height you need, let it cure, then install your tile.
Roger:
I’d like to add myself to the long list of very grateful folks who are following your advice step by step. Hopefully you’re still reading these – its been two years since the last post……
I’ve just gutted a bathroom and am about to finish repositioning the plumbing. Next step will be prepping the floor. I am going for a slightly different shower arrangement and hoped you might comment as I’m kinda baffled. My bathroom is small and so I’ve decided to make it a wet room. The shower head points straight down so at least there won’t be water shooting across the room, but I plan on installing the water barier well beyond what would be the normal shower area anyway. Here’s my main issue – If I follow your directions my pre-tile floor will be at least 3/4 inch higher than the floor in the adjacent room. You say I need a minimum of 1″ at the drain but the floors in the rest of the house are 3/4″ inch above the subfloor so even right from the get-go I’m kinda hosed (no pun intended). It seems I am missing something obvious here, but for the life of me I can’t figure it out. Maybe I need to use a different method? My partner on the project suggested the “old school” way of skimming off the 2×6′s under the sub-floor to gain some depth. I was kinda skeptical on that one, but since they’re posed already we could just add more beams and skim away I guess…. What to do!
oops. mis-read the dates there. Clearly you’re reading these!!!
Hey G,
I would not touch the floor joists. Ever. Any room designated as a wet room from the get-go is built with a sunken substrate to accommodate the height of the mud bed. If it was not intended as a wet room then it will be the same level and you’ll have a higher floor in the wet room when you’re done. You aren’t missing anything other than that. Any shower (unless ADA compliant, which are again built like that from the start) will have a curb or dam of some sort to block the water as well as compensate fort the higher mudbed.
You can either have a step-up or rethink the wet room idea. You can rebuild the joist system but you’re getting into structural issues with not only that room but the surrounding structure. That room is likely not the only one dependent upon the stability of those joists. (3/4″ minimum thickness at the drain)
Ok, bare walls to tile on the floor and walls. I have gutted the old, it was a drop in shower, the drain came up through the floor about four inches… anywho, i degress.
I am going to get the materials, one question about the whole process. Once you have your pan created, when do you place the tiles for the shower floor, do they go directly on the second layer of deck mud or is there something on top of that and then your tile? I am guessing, it’s at that point, you use thinset/motor to set your tile?
Hey Randy,
Yes, thinset mortar and tile are installed directly to the top layer of deck mud. Nothing else needed. (well, beer perhaps…)
beer, understand. Is that before or after you start the mud? From reading your “Flawed” section I assume after….
Can I walk on the pre-slope or liner or top layer of deck mud? The reason I ask, is the size of the shower I have it’s 5×7 and I want to make sure I don’t screw up the mud, especially the pre-slope.
Second, the walls and the curb, I would love to shoot you an email and a photo of what I am planning and get your advice, or even text it to you with my handy, dandy phone. My email is attached in the comment and if i can send you that, please let me know. Many thanks!
Randy
Yup, you can walk on it after it cures – just don’t go doin’ the tango or anything.
You can send me an email at roger@FloorElf.com or you can just upload it here directly to the site. I pin ‘em all up in the back room and look at them. Helps me feel good.
You can do that here: Upload your photo to the elves
Hi Roger,
even to me, but I’m new to the DIY thing so normal construction stuff is new to me… I think that diamond blades for saws must cost a FORTUNE! 
Long time listener, first time caller.
I am in the planning stage of a bathroom remodel and I am using your website to see if I can put enough know-how together to do it myself. I have two questions:
1) When installing the top mud bed on the pre-slope and shower liner, I understand (I believe) that the top mud bed is flat, but it follows the shape of the pre-slope so doesn’t that mean that it will wind up with the “very shallow bowl” shape? I am curious about this because I am considering using large tile for my shower floor and in my minds eye if I put large tile on the inside of a bowl it will have poor contact and be prone to cracking… like pressing a square table coaster onto the inside of a mixing bowl… or maybe I’m over thinking that?
2) When we’re talking about “the lathe” for going over the 2X4 curb we’ve built, can you explain what “the lathe” or I guess what “Lathe” is? Is it just a mesh of wire… or metal… I am kind of picturing a thin metal grate.
I admit that the second question in particular sounds full of numbskullery
I am away from home for a few weeks working or I would be hitting the stores and finding stuff like this out on my own as much as possible, but I have decided to spend my hotel nights researching how to do my bathroom myself.
-Cheers and thanks for putting up all this good info!
Hey Matthew,
1. You are absolutely correct. That’s why we use smaller mosaics in 2×2 or 3×3 for the shower floor. If you want to install a linear drain you can have a flat plane and use larger tile.
2. It is expanded metal lath, like this here: Expanded metal lath. You can get it at Home Depot or lowes.
Roger,
Thank you for the answers!
So, my obvious follow-up question is are there any good resources out there for how to install a linear drain? I already searched my favorite elf powered website to no avail!
-Matthew
I can help you out with it but I’d need to know which drain you’re working with. The schluter, in my opinion, is the best and easiest. I’m doing a pro-line right now, it’s kind of a pain. You can check out my buddy John’s site at No-curb.com. He has a LOT of info about the numerous drains (not many installation specifics) but you can at least get an idea of what’s out there. Come on back with any questions you might have.
John’s kinda goofy (he’s Canadian
) but he does know a hell of a lot about them. Don’t let him give you any shit about drywall behind kerdi either – it’s a running difference of opinion we have on the subject. Stay with the dark side – we have cookies. 
Roger,
Thank you, I will check that link out. As far as what I’m working with, I am in the theoretical planning stage right now, so I am shopping for what I am going to use… design choices and all.
Thank you again,
Matthew
Hi Rodger,
As always, thank you for this great website.
Here’s my dilemma. After pouring/packing the shower pan, I then had to wait a few weeks for the tile to come in. Now I’m ready to tile but noticed several cracks in the shower pan mortar. The shower pan is about 2-3 inches thick and appears completely dry. When i put the tile down should i pack more thinset in the cracks or is there something else i should do before tiling over the shower pan?
A little background info, I heavily reinforced the shower floor while installing a new 3/4 inch subfloor. I’m pretty sure there’s no movement in the floor that would have caused the cracks and no traffic has been in the shower. The hairline cracks originate at the drain.
Did I let the shower pan mortar dry too long?
-Zack
Hey Zach,
Nope, didn’t let it cure too long – no such thing.
The amount of sand beneath your tile in a mud deck compensates for the movement. when there isn’t a tile installation over it, it will simply crack, as you see. The floor may not be moving – the plumbing probably is. The reason your deck is sandy is because this movement will dissipate beneath a tile installation through the sand in the mix. The ability of the sand to move takes less effort, a lot less, than the stress needed to crack your grout or tile.
In other words: it’s completely normal.
Just fill ‘em with thinset as you tile over it. It will be fine.
Hey Karin,
You can use just regular concrete or thinset – either one will work. While I’m here
I want to say this – again. I understand that code in Florida does not require a waterproof membrane over a concrete floor, and I still think it’s wrong. It is my belief that if you build a shower it should contain every drop of water until it reaches the drain. I know it’s not required there, but it should be.
Thanks again….so when they say “this is how it should be done” what I should be hearing is “this is the minimum I am required to do”. Sadly, being a transplant to FL from elsewhere, I have no doubt that your opinion regarding this is right on target!
That is exactly what you should be hearing when they say that. Perfect.
Love your site, has helped me so much. Getting ready to install the top coat. After installing the membrane on a flat sloped floor 1 1/4 off the floor, I want to get the correct pitch on the top coat. Starting at the drain going up 1/14 inch to outside wall 4 3/4 inch won’t that put the final floor height above the curb (3 2×4 = 4 1/2) plus mud on curb of 3/4″ after adding in the first layer of sloped mud.
Do I need to make the curb higher or just reduce the thickness of the top coat?
Keep up the good work
Hey Keith,
The total height of your mudbed needs to be 1 1/4″, this includes the preslope and the top slope. If your preslope is 1 1/4″ already don’t worry about it – no big deal. The top slope does not increase thickness from the drain to the wall, it’s consistent. You can make the top slope 3/4″ thick, which will only add 3/4″ to your current height all the way from the drain to the wall. So if you have 3 2×4′s on your curb you should still have about 2 1/2″.
Love your write-up and after months of searching on Google i finally feel confident enough to tackle this job myself. One question for you though. I saw you mentioned in a previous part that the slope needs to be level all on the perimeter, even if one wall is further from the drain. In my situation my bed will be 36″x60″ and the drain is at one end of the shower. That is a very steep slope on the wall thats closer to the drain. Do i stick to your rule or is there an exception for this situation? Thanks for taking the time to help me and thousands of others!
Hi AJ,
The proper way is to continue with a level perimeter – so yes, you would have a 1″ slope behind your drain. You can have a perimeter which is not level if you want – the problem with that is that every tile on the bottom row will need to be cut at an angle to follow that slope and it’s normally really, really noticeable. The level perimeter is to have level wall tile.
Hey Roger – continuing to plan my shower project…appreciate all of the insight. Something I couldn’t find on your site. Following your advice with respect to using 3 – 2X4′s for the curb, I now have 2 questions.
1.) After the membrane is installed on the pre-sloped concrete bed and over top of the curb, do you recommend forming and pouring the final bed and curb as one monolithic piece of concrete, or should the curb be poured after the final bed has an opportunity to cure?
2.) What do you recommend as a basic form for the curb (standard wooden form or a prefabricated curb kit from one of the manufacturers)?
Thanks for all of the advice. This would be much easier if I just had you do it but the commute from Colorado to Pennsylvania would be hell!
Thanks,
Dale
Hey Dale,
1. It doesn’t really matter whether the curb is created at the same time as the floor or not. It doesn’t need to be one piece.
2. I don’t use forms for curbs – and you shouldn’t either. That implies that the mix you’re using is too runny. Use ‘wet mud’ to form your curb. Just take the regular deck mud mix and add one part powdered masonry lime to it – that’ll make it sticky. Just form your curb like you’re frosting a cake.
3. …Oh shit, there wasn’t a 3 – jet lag.
Roger,
Thanks for the information. One Question I have though is the slope of the top layer of Mud. Should there be 1/4 in per foot slope on the top layer also?
Hey Roman,
If your pre-slope is properly sloped your top layer will be a uniform thickness throughout and still have the 1/4″ / foot slope requirement. So the short answer is – yes and no.
It IS sloped but the layer does not contain a slope. KnowWhatIMean?
Hey Roger,
Great site, I really appreciate the time you have taken to share your wisdom with us all. I wanted to know if you had an opinion on the pre-fabbed slope products I’m seeing out now, (didn’t have any of that fancy stuff back in the day). I will freely admit I suck at sloping shower floors and would love any assistance in getting that step right. And also, if I don’t have a dog, what would the comparable consequences be to disregarding your sage advice?
Hey Dean,
Never used them but the people I have spoken to that have like them. They say they work very well and speed up the process. Since you don’t have a dog it’s likely that all your beer will take on a strange asparagus smell – you wouldn’t want that, would you?
Now that I’m done prepping the walls and floor I’m ready to start tiling my shower. Should I start with the tile on the floor or the tile on the walls?
Hey Brad,
I normally start with the tile on the floor.
This site is very helpful, Thanks! I’m getting ready (within the next few weeks) to do this, and everything makes sense to be except one thing, and I was hoping you could help.
For this final layer of deck mud, do I come flush to the top of the drain? I would guess no, because we need to factor in the height of the tile, which matches your final picture, but I wanted to double check.
Your description of measuring the drain, and transferring the height to the wall, doesn’t seem to account for the tile, so I’m a bit confused on this one step.
Thanks,
Brent
Hey Brent,
You do need to compensate for the thickness of the tile. The drain, however, is adjustable. If you create it flush with the top of the drain then it will create a completely level, consistent edge all the way around it, then the barrel can be unscrewed to raise to the height of the tile. This eliminates an inconsistent height right around the drain. You can do it either way, since the drain (barrel) can be unscrewed to be raised it may be easier to do it flush with the top, then unscrew the barrel a bit before the mud fully cures. Unless you are using a drain which cannot be height adjusted after the deck is in that is usually the best way to do it.
Thank you, that makes sense now.
How do I find your stuff on installing tile on the floor and the curb? I’ve searched tiling and installing tile on floor and cannot find what I’m looking for…I have a 4 x 4 drain and am using 6 x 6 tiles and want a starting point, I’m not sure what the best way to start is for the best visual around the drain….
Hi Angela,
You can’t find it because it doesn’t yet exist.
I write this in my spare time (none) and add to it as I can. I do not yet have posts regarding tile placement. I’m a slacker.
It’s normally better to start at the drain and dry-lay the tile in the pan. Get them all laid in there where you want them before you use thinset. That way you can move whatever you want and get them right where you want them without needing to make a big mess. There is really no ‘proper’ method of placement – it really is whatever you think looks best. The basic rule of thumb is to have everything centered and no cuts less than half a tile width against the walls. This, however, is not always possible and will vary from shower to shower. With 6 inch tiles and a 4 inch drain it would look better to have a full tile on one side of the drain and a two-inch cut on the other. If you center it you will have a one-inch cut all the way around the drain, that may not look best. If you want to have it centered have a four-inch pieces with ‘L’ cuts all the way around the drain. The two inches you cut off of each piece will allow for the drain. It’s difficult to describe with words but if you take a four-inch square and place it over four of the tile laid on the floor you can trace around the four-inch piece for your drain cut out.
Roger,
Would it be a bad idea to waterproof my curb with Redgard before I tile. I have the PVC liner as you have shown and then lath and morter mix on top of that.
Hey Brian,
As long as you have your liner wrapped up and over your curb and the ends correctly waterproofed there’s no reason to use the redgard. It may lead to trapped moisture between two with no way for it to dissipate. That may lead to a mold problem. Using the redgard may actually create a problem that doesn’t exist. Just put your tile on the mortar and go have a beer.
Hi Roger
Just wanted to thank you for all your effort in putting together these tutorials. You really could not have explained the steps any better!
I have one question though regarding the waterproofing:
I am from South Africa and what the guys use here is a slurry comprised of Portland cement and a latex or acrylic additive which is ‘painted’ onto the walls and floor before tiling to form a waterproof layer (homes here are built with brick and mortar). I am a bit concerned about tiling directly onto this slurry as there won’t be a layer of mud for the water to run through. Should I be concerned about this, or should the water pass through the tile cement without too much effort?
Thanks again for all your help! :-)
Hey Bjorn,
Congratulations for making it through at least five pages of my mindless banter.
I have never heard of the portland/latex slurry method, might be unique to South Africa. I don’t think that is something I would do but, hey, who the hell am I to tell people half way around the world how to do their job? That wasn’t your question, anyway.
Provided this slurry is indeed waterproof then you should have no problems installing tile directly to it. Any water reaching that barrier will run down behind the tile and into the drain. It would be just like using Kerdi or another topical waterproofing membrane. The water will pass through the thinset behind the tile without a problem.
Thanks a million for the response! It’s not often you find someone who takes the time to respond to all of the questions on their website. Kudos!
To be honest, I do prefer the waterproofing liner method you use, but with my limited experience on the subject, my only guess as to why it’s not done here is maybe due to the extra work in grinding away the plaster around the base of the shower to sink the liner into? That’s just a wild guess though.
Thank you very much for putting my mind at ease regarding the flow of water through the thinset. “The water will pass through the thinset behind the tile without a problem.” was music to my ears, erm, I mean art to my eyes ;-)
Thanks again, I really appreciate the help.
i would like to thank you for the very valuable information you provide .. you have saved me from making very big mistakes in my bathroom remodel .. diynetwork should have a link to your web site for there viewers so they have the complete and correct information… i will send pics when complete..
Thank you very much, Ed. It is always my pleasure. I keep tellin’ diynetwork they need to hire someone that actually knows what they’re doing but, you know, if I get all rich and famous I may just turn into an ass.
i have 2 more ? for you roger .. how thick should the mud be on the curb ??? and i have bought ceramic tile for the shower floor it is about 2 ” hexagon … my ? is should i return it and buy porcelain tile ???
Hey Ed,
I usually make the mud on my cub about an inch to 1 1/4″ on top and about 1/2″ on the sides – no one walks on the sides.
You do not need to return the ceramic, it is fine to use on the floor. I’ve done several shower floors with ceramic. I think the 2″ hex tiles will look very cool on a shower floor.
Umm, you do know I expect pictures of this shower I’ve been hearing so much about, right?
That’s the only thing I ever ask of my readers. It sounds like its coming together for you, though.
thanks for the info roger . i dont think your a dork .. i am wondering how the curbs is formed ??? you said in 1 post it is made from 3 2/4 s screwed togeather and you talked about how to cover it with the liner and wire lath . i assumed it would be covered with mud .. but i have learned not to assume anything ..
Hey Ed,
The curb is indeed covered with mud. Once the liner is wrapped up and over your three 2 x 4′s the lathe is formed into a U shape and placed on top of it. This serves two purposes, first it holds the liner in place without nails or screws, and it gives a solid base for the mud to grab onto.
Once the lathe is on you can simply form your curb over it with the deck mud. Some contractors use a ‘wet mud’ which is just deck mud with a bit more water and powdered lime added to the mix to make it more sticky. I don’t, I just use regular deck mud but you have to pack it in there really well and be careful with it before you get the tile installed as it will be a bit fragile (sandy and all that).
hi roger did i miss something … how is the curb tiled ???
Hi Ed,
You didn’t miss anything – I did. The problem with describing all this stuff to people is that I do it everyday and rarely think about things such as how the curb is tiled – it’s just a natural part of it for me. I’m a dork like that sometimes. . . okay, a lot of the time.
If you are asking how the curb is built to be tiled upon (with lathe and mud) I believe I described it briefly although I don’t actually have photos of me doing that yet. I will add them sometime this weekend since I just took some last week.
If you mean how is tile actually installed onto the curb it needs to be done after the tile is installed on the shower floor (although not imperative it does look better in my opinion). I’ll get some stuff up about actually installing tile on the floor and curb this weekend as well.
I’ll have to crack the whip on the elves!