Waterproof Shower Manual

by Roger

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Tricia

Hi there. Thanks for the wealth of knowledge you share! My husband wants to install stones on a step up to our jetted tub. The displays for them at Home Depot show a significant space between each stone. We bought the 12 x 12 pre glued slabs of the stones, but most of them are touching each other. It seems that the grout wouldn’t be able to find purchase with so little space to work with. Do I need to return these and look for better ones with more space, or will the grout be fine given the larger spaces where the “corners” of the round stones are?
- Roger
  
  Hi Tricia,
  
  Those are just fine, the grout will bond to the sides of the stone, and since they’re round the result will be bigger grout spaces than simply the empty space between stones. Stones look extremely different grouted than not.
Mark

Roger,
I’m planning a low-profile curb shower (36″x36″) on a concrete slab. I’m thinking of using the Pre-pitch system and Handikirb and covering it all with Hydroban and then tile straight onto the Hydroban — am I missing anything? My drain is 18″ from the shower entrance = 3/8″ of slope on that run. Will a shower pan only 3/8″ max be sufficient? In other words, the short question is: What is the minimum perimeter thickness of a mud bed?
Thanks for a great resource!
Mark
- Roger
  
  Hi Mark,
  
  The minimum thickness of mud anywhere is 3/4″. So if your drain is 18 inches from the wall your minimum perimeter thickness is 1 1/8″. It needs to be 3/4″ at the drain.
Chad

Hi Roger,
I just bought your book and find it very informative. I just want to make sure my plan is okay: wood subfloor, thinset, Durock, mud bed, Hydro-Rite, thinset, tile.

Thank you for your help,
Chad
- Roger
  
  Hi Chad,
  
  Yes, your plan is fine. You can actually lose the durock in the mix and install the mud bed directly over the wood subfloor with lath. But yours works as well.
Ed

So I have read your starter manual and I have a couple of questions. I would like to purchase your manual but I need to make sure I purchase the right one. As you mentioned the internet is a wealth of information but alas sifting the wheat from the chaff is a little difficult at times. So…I am installing a custom shower that is right in a corner of the exterior walls of the house (2 sides exterior). I of course recently repaired/framed/insulated etc. and put up my 6 mil poly, purchased cement backer board and am all set to go…except I have been thinking a lot about the Kerdi product and am somewhat unsure if I can use that topical method with my vapour barrier installed behind the cement board. In my particular situation would it be better to just stick to the traditional method or is it safe to apply a topical barrier, I am somewhat concerned that this could potentially trap moisture and create mold etc.

Thanks in advance for your reply and another thanks for a great website!

Ed.
- Roger
  
  Hi Ed,
  
  Yes, you can still use the kerdi. You’ll just have to cut slits in the barrier between each stud bay or remove the barrier altogether so any moisture can dissipate.
Kris

I’d like to start off by telling you that you have a badass website. It has helped out a lot! I’d also like to offer a little advice for some of the less construction savvy DIY’ers. I’m in the middle of remodeling my basement bathroom quickly, so I can take my other bathroom apart to remove black mold from the crawl space above it. Then remodel it also. A couple products I found useful in getting the shower floor done quickly and at the proper angle are called “Pre-Pitch” and “Quick-Pitch” made by Mark E. Industries. They are part of a great product line made in the U.S.A.! Products that speed up the job for professionals and make jobs done by DIY’ers like myself look, like you hired a pro. They can be found at http://www.markeindustries.com.
P.S. I’m not a rep or anything, I just think they are great products that would help a lot of people, plus I say again, they are MADE IN THE U.S.A.!
Thanks again for all the advice, you rock!
Ken

Roger,
Planning on tiling a 5′ neo angle shower in a new construction home. Want to install a couple of nitch’s and I’m thinking about using 1/2″ Kerdi Board for the substrate and also for the nitch’s. Your thoughts and comments would be appreciated.
Ken
- Roger
  
  Hi Ken,
  
  Great idea! Kerdi-board is how I build 90% of my showers now. It great stuff.
Torey

roger
really enjoyed reading your site im getting my ducks in a row to start a tile project and i have learned alot by visiting your site, very easy and informative info. for that i thank you, i think i have a good understanding of what i need to do to water proof until…. im going to use a tub/shower combo but im still foggy on where to stop the cement board in conjunction with the lip of the tub and where to stop the tile also. do you have any photos of this transition. sometimes visuals help me more than words. also im going to tile the rest of the floor with the same tile. do i need to water proof the entire floor? i was going to use a topical over the cement board. more then likely the redbond liquid route. thanks for your help and awesome site!
- Roger
  
  Hi Torey,
  
  Normally it is best, and easier, to stop the backer right above the very top of the flange lip. The tile goes down over the flange and stops 1/16″ – 1/8″ above the horizontal arm of the tub. That is the common layout, but it varies depending on where your tub sits in relation to the studs. If it’s against them that’s how it’s normally done.
  
  No, you do not need to waterproof the whole floor. Redgard works well for showers.
Jordan

I was sold M2 drywall for around my bathtub. My plan was to use a roll on product like Redguard. However, my rough opening is such that the drywall will not fit behind the tub on all three sides. I will have to butt the M2 board into the tub flange. How do I best seal this joint?
- Roger
  
  Hi Jordan,
  
  The drywall should not fit behind the tub on any of the walls. If you are using a liquid topical membrane on your substrate your substrate NEEDS to be cement backerboard. You may also want to check your local codes. I’m assuming since you were sold M2 drywall that you are in Canada? If so you can not use any gypsum-based product as a substrate in wet areas from my understanding.
  
  With all that said you can seal the joint from your wall substrate to your tub flange with silicone.
sarah

Yes! Thank you so much this is exactly the kind of information I have been looking for. Doing a little dyi at my parents cottage in hot, humdid moldy Florida. We have a general contractor doing some work but I ever thought I could do projects of this type and enjoy them. Great site. Thank you so much for posting it. Because I am 49 and female “the internet” has opened up a new world to me! Again thank you so much for sharing your expertise and knowledge.
Valerie

We are going to be tearing out a cruddy plastic tub surround. The shower has a heat duct inside of it (100 year old home – can’t move the duct). Will there be any issue putting up waterproofing membrane and tile? Example: will the heat that comes from the duct cause problems with the thinset and make the stuff pop off the wall?
- Roger
  
  Hi Valerie,
  
  No it won’t pop tile off the wall. What I would do, though, is put a barrier of some sort between the duct and the wall, preferably roofing felt. It is for condensation purposes, nothing to do with heat. The warm air around the duct will condense and the vapor will turn into droplets, if you have roofing felt there it will keep that away from the backside of your substrate. It will dissipate before it soaks into anything, without it the droplets may simply soak into the back side of your substrate.
  - Valerie
    
    Just so I am clear, you mean roofing felt behind the cement board, right? We were going to do plastic behind the cement board, so should we do roofing felt behind all of it instead so that the vapor barrier is consistent? We also plan on putting Kerdi over the cement board so it’s nice and waterproofed!
    - Roger
      
      If you do kerdi DO NOT put plastic behind all the walls. It creates two waterproof barriers with your substrate in between them, any vapor or condensation that gets between the barriers will stay there – mold WILL grow inside your wall. Just use roofing felt between the duct and substrate, then use kerdi on the face of the walls.
      - Valerie
        
        Thank you for your help! I appreciate it!!
Le

I am installing a steam room. Do I use vinyl to cover the seat, floor, and walls. Or do I use redgard over the cement board on certain areas? What do you suggest?
- Roger
  
  Hi Le,
  
  There are a LOT of different ways to build a steam shower. The fact that you’re asking me that questions tells me that you haven’t yet researched the VERY involved process in building a steam shower. It is completely different than a regular shower and demands a lot of different steps. You should start here: Laticrete steam rooms and showers
Peter

Roger, thanks for all your information. How thin can you make a mud set shower floor? I have always heard 2″. The drain I bought wont even go 1-3/4″ with the tile. That would only give me about 1-1/2″.
Thanks, Peter
- Roger
  
  Hey Peter,
  
  3/4″ is the absolute minimum.
Jeff

You say you always have to waterproof shower walls before tiling. What about a house with the walls built out of concrete prefab blocks covered with a “concrete” plaster. The floors are all poured concrete. So if the water soaks through the tiles (actually marble) or the grout (which it will according to a certain elf), the worst it can do is make wet concrete walls, and perhaps run down to the floor and make a wet concrete floor. I guess it could soak through the entire wall (8 inches of prefab concrete) and cause problems with the plaster/paint in the bedroom next to the bathroom but that is a lot of showering. If you are spending that much time in the shower, you are either alone or you dropped the soap and wish you were alone.
- Roger
  
  Hi Jeff,
  
  While it sounds sensible it’s not a good idea at all. The problem is that rather than any water getting into the concrete running down the floor it will remain in the concrete – hydrostatic pressure. You’ll have stagnant water in your wall behind your tile, consistently. When you begin to notice that sour smell just go ahead and tear out your tile and remove all the mold. It is a breeding ground for all sorts of stuff you don’t want in your shower.
  - Diamond
    
    I just ripped out a bathroom (Miami, FL) with a concrete floor and one concrete wall (exterior) that faced West. There was no pre-sloping in the water pan and the water stagnated and caused humidity problems (mold) in all walls (greenboard) and ceilings (regular drywall) of the bathroom. The wood floors in an adjacent room had to be removed because elevated moisture levels in the concrete facilitated mold growth on the underlayment. Concrete is NOT waterproof.
Ronald

I’m entertaining completing an already roughed in bathroom in the basement level of our house. THe floors are cement and heated indirectly via water boiler and a header system. The roughed in bathroom is very large , roughly 8′ x 22′. With one end being somehat triangular shaped . This is the end I plan on putting in an open shower. Considering the above , what would you suggest I use to ensure water tight wall and floors..On a skill level, I’d say I’m a “I cut a 2×4 once and painted my laundry room” . I do however have a garage full of brand new power tools I accumulated over the years and can’t wait to open them up and make a big mess .

thanks
- Roger
  
  Hi Ronald,
  
  I would suggest a traditional shower floor with either topical wall boards (like densshield) or traditional walls with a barrier behind backerboard. Topical is easier.
tom

Hi Roger,
Great site. I learned more in a few minutes on your site than I had in the previous hour searching the net.

Question: My wife wants me to paint the area over my new tub surround rather than tile it. Which of these methods would allow me to do that? I would rather not use the traditional method.
Thanks
Tom B
- Roger
  
  Hi Tom,
  
  If you’re talking about the area over the shower head you really don’t need a waterproofing product up there, a good interior paint on regular drywall or backerboard will work fine. If you’re talking about the entire surround around a tub with a shower then the traditional is about the only option, paint either won’t bond well or won’t last with any of the topical methods.
Dennis

Hello,

I had a tile shower installed in my basement 2 years ago, now it is leaking.
It had brand new material used for install.
1) Installed insulation in the walls with a vapor barrier, used hardibacker cement board from Lowes.
2) installer placed brick for the curb of shower, next placed waterproof blue liner up the walls about 1 foot and on the floor. Installed new floor drain prior to blue liner, chalk was used to seal around floor drain.
3) Installer used black slope guides for pan. The pan material was a dry but just damp material. He left that dry for 3 days.
4) Installer placed the hardibacker board down to the floor screw boards about 4 inches up from the floor. The all screws installed were caulked over and the bottom seam between the hardibacker and floor were caulked.
5) Installer then began to install tile for the shower. He used a Ceramic Tile and fixture caulk on the floor and corner seams.

Today, I just notice on the tube of caulk it is not meant to be under water.
Here is a picture of the inside of the shower as I used the left over new tube of caulk.

I will attach pictures once you reply.
Thanks
Dennis
- Roger
  
  Hi Dennis,
  
  1. The installer did not create a pre-slope beneath the blue liner?
  
  2. The installer did not install a vapor barrier behind the hardi or a waterproof barrier over the face?
  
  3. There should be no penetrations of the liner below three inches above the finished height of the curb.
Marti

Dear Roger, I just puchased your books, your humor is awesome, interesting and fun. Thanks
I am working on a 3′ by 5′ shower in an old home.
Plumbed up the walls, applied black felt
The front and back walls I put purple, moisture sheet rock to fur out those two walls, because the customer wanted quarter round to work as a trim tile to finish off those two walls. Then I put black felt on the floor and mesh and poured a pre slope floor, then I put a rubber membrane over that going up all walls 6 inches. Then I durocked all the walls keeping my screws 4 to six inches high.
then I put in sturdy diagonal seat in one corner, bottom plate sits on top of the membrane but I did not put holes in the floor, tied it in real good to the side walls and put a rubber membrane on it that goes down onto the shower floor membrane about 10 inches out onto the floor with adhesive.
then I put durock on the front of the seat and the top.
My question : can I put in four or five screws to adhere the durock that is on top of the seat into the 3/4 ply that i build seat with, puncturing the top of the seat, and then waterproof it with 3 coats of Redgard.
Second question : can I use some fiberglass tape and redgard on the nitches and corner of the seat and corners of the curb, to be sure all is waterproofed, or do I have to use mesh tape and thin set ???
third what kind of fiberglass tape is there a name you can give me,
Thanks alot Roger, good evening, I am going to grab a beer and watch some basketball. Marti
- Roger
  
  Hey Marti,
  
  You can do that with the bench and redgard, it won’t hurt anything. Yes, you can use fiberglass tape and redgard on all the corners you’ve mentioned. Durock brand is the most readily available, normally at home depot.
Darcy

I have a new upstairs shower and separate bathtub that I’ve lined with HardiBacker board, no vapor barrier, but I’ve yet to put the lower 3 feet of backer board on the shower. The shower has a hot mop pan, with hot mop about ten inches up the wall on three sides and over the curb. There’s a low wall between the shower and tub, and a deck around the tub that I will also line with hardieboard. If I understand correctly, you recommend using a waterproof layer in addition to the hardieboard. I could either line the lower part of the shower stall, wall, and bath deck with plastic and then install hardieboard over that (not nailing below the curb level and sealing seams), or install hardieboard and just paint the seams and corners with redgard, or paint the whole thing with redgard, . The latter seems a bit like overkill, since the hardieboard website claims that it is a waterproof barrier. Thanks for your guides and help.
- Roger
  
  Hi Darcy,
  
  You do not need to waterproof your tub deck, you can just install the hardi and tile to it. The entire shower needs to be waterproofed, not just the lower three feet. No screw penetrations below three inches above your curb, not at the curb. I would absolutely love the link to the page on hardie’s website that claims it’s any sort of waterproof barrier – because it absolutely is not. It is water stable, meaning it won’t warp, swell or fall apart when wet, but it’s just like your driveway when it rains, it soaks in water. Nothing waterproof about it whatsoever. If you have that link, though, I’d love to see it.
  - Darcy
    
    The curb is covered with hot tar in my shower install. I was going to cover it with hardiebacker board for a tile substrate. I read it was ok to put minimum screws through the backer board into the curb to hold it in place, like no more than three. Then cover the screws with thinset. Will this be ok?
    dm
    - Roger
      
      Absolutely not. No penetrations in your floor membrane whatsoever. The curb, and penetrations thereof, are one of the biggest reasons for failed showers. You need to use mud to create a curb over the hot mop, then install tile directly to that.
John

Hi Rodger

John with the Laundry/Bathroom switch up here again, after having to put the project on hold for several months we’ve finally returned to pick up where we left off. I’m about to install the backer board and now that I’m sufficiently skeptical of the cutesie DIY instruction video for the Tile-Redi showerpan I was looking at how to treat the seams between the panels and found your coments on how to treat the seams between the walls in the corners which sounds like you are talking about leaving an expansion joint that is only caulked with silicone…am I undersanding that correctly?
If so my other question is will the liquid membrane have trouble adhereing to the silicone?
- Roger
  
  Hey John,
  
  The seams between the panels, on the same plane, should be taped and mudded with thinset. The seams in the corners should have silicone placed in the gap, between the sheets to allow for expansion (swelling). At that point you can install your liquid if you want. The liquid will not bond well to the silicone, but it doesn’t really need to, the areas with silicone are waterproofed at that point, the liquid just fills in any missed or open areas. A better option is to tape and mud the corners once the gap is filled with silicone. This will give you a solid surface for your waterproofing once cured.
Tim

Dear Elf,
I am renovating an outdoor shower at my sub division pool. It was simply an alcove in the exterior structure measuring approx 4’d x 6′ wide. The walls were hardi plank cement siding an finished onto a cement slab with a drain dead center. I have stripped the siding, repaired the osb and covered the 3 walls with 1/2″ hardie cement board. My question is, how do I get a waterproof seal between the wall and the cement floor. I am covering walls with 1/2″ corian and applying ceramic tile to shower floor. I am planning to use Keri strips to make the wall to floor transition and then coat with Redgaurd waterproofing. Let me know your thoughts
Thanks
- Roger
  
  Hey Tim,
  
  The kerdi with the redgard over it will work very well to waterproof that transition.
Francine

Hi there

my shower leaks onto the kitchen ceiling. There is about a centimetre gap at the bottom of the tiles which I keep filling with silicone. It had grout in before. The leak seems to be stopped for the time being but we were thinking of taking out the tray to see what’s behind it etc. However the tiles are on plasterboard so if we have to rip off the rest might come too so thinking of not doing that and just trying to reseal somehow. Maybe put a bead at the bottom of the tiles as extra cover. Any other ideas. Going mad as the whole house seems to be falling apart at moment.
- Roger
  
  If your tile is on plasterboard that is your problem right there – no waterproofing. Your shower should be waterproof before one tile is installed into it, the tile installation is not waterproofed from the front of the tile. Continuing to replace silicone will only slow the leak for short periods of time. The shower should be removed and rebuilt correctly.
chris

I understand how to put the plastic barrier behind the hardi backer. How would you do the nich in the wall? Would it be better to use redgard on top of the hardi backer or plastic sheathing behind the backer?
- Roger
  
  Hey Chris,
  
  It is better to use redgard or topical waterproofing on a niche. It can be done with the plastic, but it’s a huge pain in the ass.
david beurling

Hi .
I have a shower stall built in sinder block construction .
With the old tile removed im left with a questionable surface to place my tile . The block work was surfaced in plaster and there are patches of adesive , some of the plaster seams flakey or unstable.
What would you suggest for preparing this surface for tile

thanks in advance David
- Roger
  
  Hi David,
  
  If it seams unstable at all then I would remove it. Ideally I would probably do mud walls on that cinderblock, but that’s a method requiring a fair bit of knowledge and practice. If most of it is stable I would remove the unstable or flaky portions and float out the walls with mud or thinset to achieve a flat substrate, then use a topical membrane over it like redgard, hydroban or kerdi. Then tile directly to that.
Allen Sheppard

Putting a traditional moisture barrier on the studs is cheap and not difficult. Painting two coats of redgard on the cement backer board is not difficult. Is there anything wrong with overkill, i.e. both? This will be my first shower tile and I want it to succeed.
- Roger
  
  Hi Allen,
  
  Yes, there are problems with overkill, read through this: Answers
  - Allen Sheppard
    
    Ok, I read and understand. I’m going to use a traditional plastic barrier behind the backer. One more question. There is a bench at one end of the tub. How do I handle the waterproofing on the bench?
    - Roger
      
      Build your bench frame ensuring the top, horizontal portion of the bench is sloped, then run your barrier from the wall over it and down to the floor in one piece. Install your backer over it and tile away.
mark

I’m tearing out a shower, if I put in a sloped mud floor , coat it with redguard , can I use dense sheld for walls with a silicone bead . I was thinking mesh tape and redguard at the joint but what about the dam? Would hardi and redguard work?
- Roger
  
  Hey Mark,
  
  Mesh tape and redgard will work fine. Hardi and redgard on the curb will work as well.