That title right there is absolutely ripe for me to go off on a sophomoric, mildly humorous rant about the viability of inferior illegal plant use. But I’m not gonna do that. (Okay, maybe later…)
A soft joint, or control joint, is simply one grout line, all the way down the length of your installation, that is filled with colored silicone or caulk rather than grout. The purpose of a soft joint is to allow movement in your installation without cracking tiles or grout. When placed properly it will absorb any ‘normal’ seasonal and structural movements inherent in structures.
There are guidelines that need to be followed for a soft joint to be effective. The TCNA guidelines call for a control joint every 20′ – 25′ in each direction for interior installations and every 8′ – 12′ in each direction for exterior installations. Interior installations which are exposed to direct sunlight also need control joints every 8′ – 12′.
This simply means that if you install tile in your living room and it is larger than 25′ or 30′ you need a control joint – period. It is non-negotiable. If you do not have it chances are likely that your tile installation will fail. The number one reason for tile installation failure (on a floor) is lack of proper control joints. You need them! *It’s either lack of proper control joints or improper coverage, there are conflicting views. Both will lead to a failure and both are installer error – both need to be correct!
You need them on wood, you need them on concrete, you need them inside, you need them outside. And no, that is not the beginning of a Theodore Geisel book. I’m simply trying to illustrate the importance of a soft joint in a large tile installation. Because it is. Very important.
Along with these control joints you also need to ensure proper perimeter spacing. This simply means that your tile around the perimeter of your room is not butted against the wall or framing. You need room for stuff to expand.
You don’t realize it but there are a lot of things in a structure which move – constantly. With temperature changes, normal construction shifts (settling), even sunlight causes enough significant heat to expand and contract structural elements several times a day. You absolutely need to allow for this movement.
If you do not allow for this movement your tile installation will not last long-term. Your grout will crack. Your tile will crack. Your dog will burst into flames. Your tile may ‘tent’ which means that there is so much pressure pushing two adjacent tiles together that the bond from the mortar will eventually fail and the two tiles will pop – literally – off the floor and tent. They will sit there right in the middle of your room looking like a little teepee. I tapped a tile once in an installation which did not have control nor perimeter joints and they literally popped – loudly – and tented.
Control joints also need to be installed above expansion joints in concrete – whether you use a membrane or not. A membrane will allow you to ‘shift’ the control joint in the tile over up to six inches (depending on which membrane you use) but it still needs to be there. If your concrete has a control joint it needs to follow all the way up and through your tile installation.
Most grout manufacturers make a matching caulk or silicone which can be used for these joints. When cured they match the color of the grout exactly or nearly so. You can tell it’s there – if you look for it. Don’t look for it. I understand that a control joint may change the look of your installation – you may not like it. I know. I get it. I don’t like them either. But you need them.
The photo at the top of this post shows a control joint through the middle of a tile installation. This is right after I finished installing it so the caulk has not yet cured – that’s why you can see it. Once cured it matched the grout color exactly. In my next post I will show you exactly how to prepare this grout line as a soft joint and install the caulk or silicone.
Hi Roger
Great website! So glad to have found it searching for linoleum and Ditra.
I’ve read previous questions on your site looking for my problemo to surface but couldn’t find any specific to it. Actually you addressed it in the write-up on the use of proper substrates for Ditra, but I’d like further advice if you’d be so kind. My issue is linoleum. Not just any old linoleum, but linoleum with asbestos. No doubt about it–had it lab tested and result was positive. We could remove it ourselves following guidelines for its disposal or hire an abatement contractor. Our least expensive option is to not disturb the linoleum, but pry off the tile (it pries off easily) and re-tile over the linoleum, using Ditra, if in any way possible, or go w/o Ditra. I really and truly if at all possible want tile on that floor.
I checked the Ditra website for guidance. It claims Ditra can be used over vinyl if the vinyl sheeting is securely nailed to the subflooring every 4″ using ring-shank flooring nails. I thought maybe they used “vinyl” as a generic for floor sheeting and that I could nail down the linoleum. But, I found out online that vinyl and linoleum are very different, their only shared characteristic is being available as sheeting. I definitely have linoleum for the color/design goes through the thickness of the product, one main difference between the two. Alas….
Context in case you need to know more details: We recently bought a 1947 bungalow. The kitchen floor was tiled not long ago–say 2006. The floor is in great shape but I don’t like the dark and ugly 12″ x 12″ tile. I want to rip it out and install 18″x18″ porcelain tile over Ditra. Upon prying off a tile, I discovered that the tile was mortared directly on linoleum which is glued to 1″ thick x 2 1/4″w t/g hardwood flooring which lies on a subfloor of 1″ thick x 8″w poplar planks set diagonally over 2×8 joists 16″ oc. The kitchen is 12′ x 12′ taking up 1/2 the width of a 24′ wide house. The joists have a 24′ span (house width) supported by 2 beams of paired 2x6s set on edge on concrete block piers in the crawlspace, each running the length of the house down the middle of each 1/2 of the house. So the joists’ span under the kitchen is 6′ cuz of the cross beam support under the joists. (more than you need to know?)
Back to the linoleum issue: I’d prefer using Ditra under the 18 x 18 porcelain tile for added support. Do you think the nailing down of the linoleum through the subfloorings + appropriate mortar + ditra + thinset + tile is doable? Is there a mortar or other adhesive that will adhere the Ditra uncoupling membrane to the linoleum? For vinyl the Schluter site specifies “fast setting latex p.c. mortar.” Do you know if this will work with linoleum?
If Ditra is out, do you think we’re nuts to do what the previous owner did?….just mortar down the tile over the linoleum and be done with it. It might be we should just let things be…learn to live with present ugly tile and move on. But I want to be sure that what we want is not doable before giving up.
Thanks for any help you can offer.
Martha
Hi Martha,
No, not too much info at all!
I don’t know if anything will bond to your particular linoleum since linoleums very wildly. What works with one may not work with another. However, there is a way you can do it, get 1/4″ backer board and install it over your linoleum with thinset beneath it. That will give you a proper substrate for your ditra (or even tile directly to it if you want) without worrying about the linoleum at all. Once it’s down you can either ditra over it or tile directly to it. You just need to make sure you have thinset beneath the backer to fully support it, then you have a fresh, clean substrate to install whatever you want.
Thanks so much, Roger! That’s good news!
I think we’ll go for no Ditra cuz the layers start getting too high for the adjacent hardwood floor.
Thank you for all the excellent information. I have been reading up on perimeter expansion joints and soft joints. My question is about soft joints; specifically, can a soft joint be under a long run of cabinetry with a quartz counter top? Will the weight affect the desired mobility of the joint?
Hi Tamera,
Yes, it can be under the counter and no, it shouldn’t affect the in-plane movement capabilities of the tile and negate your soft joint.
Roger,
I have a question about creating a control joint. I’m tiling a cement slab in my basement. Does the control joint start from 1.) the cement slab up or 2.) the thin set mortar up? In other words do I put the tile on top of the mortar then start my control joint.
Thank
Jack
Hi Jack,
It is from the mortar up. The layer of mortar will crack if necessary, but it won’t unbond from the substrate.
We have a walk in show that was completed about a month ago. The ceiling is tiled as well as the walls. I have noticed cracks forming in the corners and along the edges were the ceiling and the walls meet. Was my contractor supposed to caulk the top grout line and if so what do I do know? The top grout line is the same width as all the other grout lines.
Hi Cynthia,
Yes, any change of plane in your shower needs to be siliconed rather than grouted. Grout will crack (but you already knew that).
Hi Roger,
Thanks for the quick responce. What do we do now? Do we saw out the grout around the perimeter of the ceiling and the back wall where the cracks are and then fill with caulk? Is it ok to have a 1/4 inch caulk line in the shower? I have no clue when it comes this. Any help will would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!!!
Yes, it needs to be removed and replaced with silicone. 1/4″ is HUGE, it should not be that big. You can run just a 1/16″ or 1/8″ bead of caulk against the edge, let it cure, then grout the rest in, or just scrape out 1/8″ of the grout if it will stay intact, but it may not.
Roger,
Thanks soooo much. Have learned a ton from your site. Will pass this on to my tile guy.
Hi Roger
Great questions, great, thorough answers! So, let me dig a little deeper- down to a 2-1/4″, slab on-grade mud bed. Specifically, control joints for the mud bed.
A room perimeter expansion material is required to be installed. In this case we installed 1/2″ extruded polystyrene strips. At the doorways, should the same expansion material be installed? Or, should we opt for a thinner material such as closed cell sill foam to provide a break between the wood decking and the mud deck?
There will be a threshold transitioning to the hardwood flooring which is installed on “screed- joists” and decking. A silicone control joint between between the tile and threshold installed.
Thanks for all your time- your efforts are greatly appreciated.
All the best.
Hey Kevin,
I would use the polystyrene as well to keep the expansion capabilities consistent, although the sill foam will work.
Do you usually grout along the walls & tub or just caulk. If grouting alomh walls & tub, what about expansion issue?
I have tip. 1 bathrm floor sagged because part of the joists were cut out to allow for heating duct and not replaced. Rather than go under the house in a small dirty dark crawlspace to hammer/nail/etc, I bought 1/8th” metal plates and secured them to the top of the floor in the bthrm. Now the floor feels like it’s concrete & doesn’t sag. I can go without hardyboard if I like or add it for height.
Also, do you water spray your grout every 6-12 hours til it permanently sets? Can thompsons water seal be used for the glazed ceramic tile grout to protect it?
Not normally. Most grouts now have modifiers added to them which helps retain moisture while it cures, that’s the reason for misting. You can do it if you live in an extremely dry area, it will help with color uniformity in some cases.
Hi Keith,
I silicone all changes of plane. The expansion issue you mentioned is why.
Hi Roger,
Thanks for your amazingly prompt response. That’s about the best idea I’ve had from anyone thus far. Sounds a bit scary, though, cutting into the white drywall (which covers about 40% of the bathroom walls and hasn’t been caulked yet at the tile edges) or the knotty pine paneling (which covers about 60% of the bathroom walls and has been caulked at the tile edges, although not neatly enough for my tastes). I’d have to look at it carefully at each location. And then where the tile butts up against the shower stall (almost no boundary there!), obviously you can’t use this technique there. My current plan is to put knotty pine baseboard around the whole room, which would cover up the messy caulking as well as any wall surgery!
I see your point about a handheld wet saw not fitting in there and I don’t suppose that an angle grinder or tile nipper (these are mentioned in an article at SF Gate) will work either for cutting more space into a tile that is already in place. And there isn’t some kind of Schluter product that can be fit into a tight space and protect the tile? An expansion joint should really be made out of something soft, right, so something like a metal Schluter board, such as at the carpet/tile interface in a photo from my latest John Bridge Tiling Forum entry, isn’t going to work? I was reading something suggesting (if I was understanding it correctly) that for commercial tiling they will sometimes use a metal strip, like aluminum, not a big gap full of caulk, as in residential tiling.
Thanks again for your assistance.
Nathan
Any Schluter product you use is simply going to stuff metal into that space and allow less room for expansion. All of those need to be installed as the tile is being set – not after the fact. The particular expansion joints you are speaking of are installed in the center of a tile installation.
Hi Roger,
Thanks for the clarification! I’m definitely eliminating some of the “bright ideas” that I came up with (more like dreaming in outer space perhaps?). Some of these metal Schluter products for commercial tiling are kind of cool, the way they allow expansion and contraction by having metal parts kind of telescope into each other, but I can see that they are way too large in size (for residential) and, as you say, would go in the center, not at the perimeter. Similarly, I can see that the Schulter board at the tile/carpet interface and all the Ditra below my tile aren’t going to afford my tile much protection in light of the skimpy perimeter expansion joints. So I guess that leaves me looking at if there is a way I can cut into the tile to make the joint bigger, so more caulk can go in there. That I was what I was thinking, that the expansion joint material needs to be soft, which is why I had them fill the vertical displacement crack in the cement in the neighboring room with flexible polyurethane, not harder-than-cement epoxy.
Hi Roger,
Great website! Despite the massive amount of info on the web, it’s rare to find sites that address specific individual questions like this.
You and John Bridge (“Floor Tile Installation Problems – Tenting” at johnbridge.com) have certainly got me convinced on the subject of the importance of perimeter expansion joints! I’ve been hanging out at the John Bridge tiling forum and posted my long story and pictures (only the very last part on the third thread page is relevant to what I’m about to ask you!) at http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1287953#post1287953
To make a long story short (summarizing what I said at the forum), I planned to tile a basement of about 375 sf, but I had to call it off when I discovered some vertical displacement cracks and read up on this subject, including stuff on how there is subtle movement going on with your walls and floors all the time, as if your house was sitting in half solid, half liquid quicksand. So I ended up having contractors tile only the 65 sf bathroom (the crack only went into the bathroom for 2″ in the corner of the room where my laundry basket normally is and so I thought I could get away with it).
I clearly explained to the tiler that the recommended grout width for the Daltile “Colour Scheme” tile is 3/16″ and that I wanted an extra 1/16″ gap (to get it to 1’4″) around the perimeter of the room to help protect the tile. Well, you can guess the rest, right? Among the 37 tiles on the perimeter, there are 6-8 where the boundary on the perimeter is only about 2/16″ or less and there are some spots, like near the shower and a corner by the door, where it is only about 1/16″.
There are some perimeter tiles, yes, where the boundary is fairly reasonable (that is, around 5/32″ or 3/16″, the same as the grout width). And then along the south wall, the gap is actually about 6/16″, which seems huge to me, when you consider that the gap along the north wall is only around 2/16″ or less at some points. So it seems as if the tiling was somehow not centered correctly, like if only the whole thing was moved about 2/16″ from south to north, he would have about nailed it with 1/4″ on either side!
Anyhow the flooring guys will be coming back to put in baseboards in the next week or two and I’m hoping they can do something about the lack of the proper perimeter expansion joint then. Before then, however, I wanted to get some advice.
First, am I worrying too much (based on the distances I’ve given) or worrying about the right amount (the possibility that I’m not worrying enough doesn’t seem too likely to me right now!). Second, what exactly can they do, now that the tile has been installed? Can they use something like a handheld wet saw to enlarge the boundary and put new caulk in there to give me something like the 1/4″ gap I had asked for? Or is there another way they can go about this, like putting in some kind of Schluter product, like perhaps the kind of thing that is used in commercial installations (aluminum Schluter board or Dilex or something?), at this late stage in the game to protect my tile?
You and John Bridge are both saying the same thing: that a good tiling installation can last decades if done right, but can fail in a few years if there is not enough of a perimeter expansion joint to act as a shock absorber. What should I do?
Nathan
Hi Nathan,
There are portable wet saws, but they can’t get close enough to the wall to do what you need. Short of tearing it out about the only thing you can do is create the expansion joints in the base plate of the wall. If the tile is butting (or nearly so) against drywall, simply cut the drywall out at the height of the tile. That will give you 1/2″ and still allow the base to cover. If it is the base plate (footer) then you can chisel enough out of the bottom of it to allow the space you want. The last, however, would depend on how your walls are built, they may allow that, they may not. But it would give you the expansion.
Hi Roger,
I may have accidentally replied to my own comment last time, rather than to your comment, since there are two of my entries in a row. Anyhow I’m still working on checking out (or maybe I should say checking off?) the possibilities. What you are saying about going into the base plate of the wall would probably work, but it is fairly drastic in the sense that I wouldn’t want to get water or mildew in the drywall (after all, it is bathroom floor, with tile over a cement slab, slab on grade, with slab not attached to foundation) in the white-painted part of the room. And, similarly, I wouldn’t want to go clear through or crack the knotty pine paneling in the knotty pine part of the room. I can run this by the contractor and see what they say.
As for other ideas, when I looked at some pictures and specs for commercial tiling expansion joints, they all look way too big for my situation, so that is likely out. And since the tile is already installed, I don’t know that something like Schluter Dilex could work either.
But here is a new idea I had from looking at some tiling forums online and that is to use something like a Fein multi-tool (might need to be a Supercut with diamond blade [$$], since it sounds like the multimaster doesn’t have a lot of the blades that might be used for grout removal, tile cutting, etc). For a limited number of cuts, it might work, to open up some room for an expansion joint. However, some argue that it’s hard to get a precise cut because of the vibration, while some others argue that with all the dust thrown up into the air and general mess created, you might be better off just ripping out the offensive tiles and redoing them! What would be your take on that?
That would be WAY more trouble than it’s worth. None of those blades, or the ones which fit on the tool, cut tile worth a damn. It would be MUCH easier to take out the perimeter tiles and cutting them in with a proper expansion joint.
Hi Roger,
Oh well, another one bites the dust, I guess, as far as my bright ideas are concerned! I really thought the Fein multi-tool might work for a limited number of tiles, but started to have some doubts as I kept reading in tiling forums, with some saying it will and some saying it won’t, and thought I should check with you. One guy said it would cut through soft tile but not through porcelain ceramic (what I have) and another guy said (joking?) that if you used that tool it could take 20 minutes per tile and might damage the tile!
Tilers seem to love this tool for getting into tight spaces and for removing grout (and maybe caulk?), but it sounds like cutting through tile is not the strength of the Fein multi-tool. What I’m hearing is that an angle grinder is a more typical way of cutting through tile (if a wet saw won’t work), but I can already hear you saying that that ain’t gonna work either. The problem with any of these cutting tools I’ve mentioned is the dust they would create (just not worth it), since the MSDS says that my Daltile Colour Scheme is very green and clean… until you convert it into inhalable tile dust or glaze dust, at which point it becomes a health hazard.
So, it sounds like the best course of action for me would be a combination of what you suggested before (cutting into the wall a little bit, which ought to work for the knotty pine paneling walls, which are 3/4″ thick) and simply replacing any tiles where the first approach does not seem like a good option (some parts of the smaller portion of the room with white painted drywall).
Thanks for your help. It does seem like I’m starting to narrow this down!
Nathan
Hi Roger,
The part about chiseling out a space in the wall for an expansion joint is still the best idea anyone has come up with so far (I’ve replied to that post, which I hope will not create confusion). Do you mind if I quote you (giving the URL of your website) on that at the John Bridge Tiling Forum? I would be interested as to what others say about this.
Unfortunately, I’m getting resistance from the flooring company. The owner is saying that they don’t want to cut into the walls for reasons of liability. The tile installation guy, meanwhile, is saying that because this is just residential (not commercial) and a small bathroom (around 65 to 70 sf, I’d say), we don’t need to beef up the expansion joints (right now there are a number of points where the separation between the tile and the perimeter is only 1/16″ to 3/16″) and thus he does not think I have a legitimate concern or that he needs to do anything about it. My impression is that the TCNA is saying that you need that 1/4″ (of caulk typically) around any tiling installation, regardless of whether it is residential or commercial or whether it is big room or a small room. Am I wrong about what I’ve been reading?
Nathan
Hi Nathan,
I believe I actually learned that on the forum. JB does that, I think he’s the one I learned it from. Can’t remember but feel free to post it as you see fit. No problem at all.
I don’t always have a 1/4″ perimeter joint. Sometimes it’s smaller in places. 1/4″ is always better, of course, but smaller ones aren’t normally an issue. As long as the tile isn’t jammed into the room and there is room for expansion it’s fine. In smaller rooms you won’t get a lot of expansion, so your joints will likely not be a problem.
Hi Roger,
Thanks for your response. I did post your response about cutting into the wall (to create more of an expansion joint) at the John Bridge site (making sure to include a plug for your website!). I’ve only had two responses so far, both from the same guy, but he did like the idea! I like the idea too. If it was done, like maybe with a Fein multi-tool, I would have the peace of mind of knowing that the size of the expansion gap meets the TCNA standard. The TCNA emailed me yesterday that the requirement is 1/4″ and sent me a PDF of EJ171 (“Movement Joint Guidelines”) and there is nothing in there saying that there is an exception for small rooms.
Since I’m in North America, the TCNA standards would apply and to me the 1/4″ standard is there for a reason, to protect the tile against stress. And the reason I told the installer before the installation that I wanted a 1/4″ boundary around the room was because I was worried about the structural crack that is centered about 4 feet outside the bathroom.
On the other hand, Pingo Dripstone’s Australian article “In Praise of Movement Joints” does say that Australia’s AS3958.1 standard implies that the size of the gap can be cut in half to only about 3 mm if the floor is less than 10 square meters in size (which mine is). And the Schluter article “The Right Movement Joint for the Right Job – Part 2” says that for floors less than 2 meters wide (the narrowest part of my room is about 5 to 6 feet and the longest part is about 10 feet), perimeter joints are usually not needed “unless conditions generate stresses which are likely to become extreme.”
So that, together with what you say in paragraph 2 of your response, does give me pause and make me wonder if I should cool it and forget the whole thing! There is some truth in what the installer is saying that because the room is only about 65 sf, there is less need for an expansion gap. You say “As long as the tile isn’t jammed into the room and there is room for expansion it’s fine.” So, based on that, what would your quick take be scanning through the photos I posted on page 3 of the John Bridge forum:
http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=106400&page=3
Thanks for your time!
Nathan
Always best to have perimeter joints, required, in fact. What I meant by that is having some sort of expansion in the perimeter (the tile not being jammed directly against the walls). It looks to be grouted, however, which nulls any space that may be available for that.
Hi Roger,
Thanks for having a look at my photos on the John Bridge Forum. No, it’s not actually grouted, which would have been a disaster, although this is a common mistake in DIY tiling. I can tell that it’s caulk because the color doesn’t match that of the platinum #42 Laticrete Permacolor grout I requested.
I suppose it’s hard for you to make the call as to whether the tile is “jammed directly against the wall” because it’s hard to photograph it well. The caulk (or a metal ruler for that matter) tends to reflect the photo flash, which makes it look a bit bigger than it really is. So I used a 1/4″ thick pencil in some of the pictures to provide a sense of scale. There are definitely places (maybe a fifth of all the perimeter tiles) where the perimeter joint is only around 1/16″ or 2/16″.
One thing I should perhaps mention about the photos is that there are two parts of the room. There is the vanity area of the room, which has knotty pine paneling and has been sloppily caulked. And there is the shower part of the room, which has white drywall and has not been caulked yet and doesn’t have tile edges yet either.
The moderator, CX, at the John Bridge Forum liked your idea of cutting into the wall to get the correct size of movement joint. He said that it doesn’t really matter how you get the correct size of joint as long as you get it. This is on the fourth page of the thread:
http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1290176#post1290176
Cutting into the wall to expand the movement joint still seems like the best idea anyone has come up with, so I’d like to see if I can have that done, perhaps with a Fein multi-tool. However, I’m not sure if the original contractor will be the one to do it, since he is concerned about liability issues.
Finally, are you or your webmaster able to correct my accidental mistake by editing out my last name in some of my earlier posts, which was definitely not something I intended to include. I’d do it myself, but I don’t see an “Edit” button that will allow me to do this!
If he’s concerned about liability issues perhaps he should learn to install tile properly?
Just an observation.
I am my own webmaster. It’s a zen-like thing. I removed your last name. Stop doing that.
Hi Roger,
Thanks so much for fixing that! I didn’t realize it was going to look like that and should have caught my mistake earlier.
I agree with what you say about liability. Since the TCNA standards for movement joints are intended to protect the tile against stresses, then the installer, by not following, or not being aware of the standards, could be said to take on some degree of liability in the event of a tile failure. How’s that for a snarky remark? My understanding is that a whole cottage industry of lawyers has emerged to deal with cases like this.
All three people who have commented at the John Bridge Forum liked your idea of cutting a notch or groove into the wall to provide a 1/4″ movement joint, which has become my preferred solution. The moderator, CX, said to leave it open, not to fill it with caulk.
Sure, there is a bit of risk in cutting into the wall (in either the drywall or knotty pine part of the room) in that water could get in there, since it’s a bathroom. But what’s the very worst thing that could happen? Having to replace some drywall or maybe a board or two of knotty pine paneling along the floor sounds a whole lot better and a whole lot less expensive than having the tile fail on me sometime after the one-year warranty is up!
Hi Roger,
Okay, my mind is made up that I want to use your idea of cutting a 1/4″ or so notch into the walls to provide an adequate movement joint, where it is lacking. Thanks, you’ve been a great help to me!
However, I did want to ask you if I needed a more substantial movement joint at the door threshold where there is the transition between tile and carpet. Right now, at the transition, I have tile and then a tiny little bead (probably 1/16″ or less) of caulk and then a Schluter edge (nothing fancy like a Dilex or anything like that) and then carpet on the other side. There is no thick Z bar covering a carpet tack strip or anything like that.
Normally, the literature always says that you really need a movement joint at the door sill. For example, Ceramic Tile and Stone Consultants’ “Installation Guidelines” says:
“Also tell the installer to undercut the door jams (cleaner look) so the tile can be slid under them, leaving a ¼” joint behind it. A ¼” foam backer rod can be used to put into those spots first so you can slide the tile right up to it leaving the ¼” joint for expansion. Caulk the door jams with the 100% silicone or urethane sealant. Any doorway with a threshold should have a movement joint.”
My tile guy didn’t actually put the tile as far under the door jamb as he should have, but otherwise is there anything wrong with the way he has done it? Yes, there is a vertical displacement structural crack in the adjoining room about four feet away from the bathroom door (yep, this is what I’m worried about), which is why I ended up carpeting (rather than tiling) the adjoining room. But unless there is some kind of deadly expansion between the Schluter edge and the tile, where is the stress on the tile going to come from?
On one side of the Schulter edge, you have tile and then underneath that you have thinset and then Ditra and then concrete (no SLC in this part of the room). On the other side of the Schluter edge, you have carpet and then 8-pound underlay and then concrete. I know there is a transition, but how is the carpet and underlay going to damage my tile?
So, should I just leave it as is (without much of a movement joint, since you said that the hard metal Schluter edge isn’t going to provide much protection)… or do I need to get some more caulk in there or put in some foam backer rod? Am I missing something? What should have been done here?
It’s just fine the way it is. The schluter is not against anything structural so it will move a little if need be. The CTSC guidelines are talking about the footer plate under the door jamb, not the open door jamb itself.
Hi Roger,
Okay, one more thing and it’s kind of important! Can you remove my last name from the posts that I’ve made on your website and just have Nathan? It was definitely not my intention to have my last name online. At John Bridge, you can see that, like most others, I just have a first name and made up user name!
Nathan
can a floor tile go over an expansion joint by about 50mm if there is no adhesive under the part that goes overthe joint.. The tiles are 400×400.
thanks
Hi Bob,
Provided you place a soft joint in the grout line 50mm from the expansion joint.
Thanks for that roger. Would i need to put any kind of support under the 50mm of tile with no adhesive under it to prevent it from possibly breaking under applied weight.
You need to have some sort of crack isolation under there. These are things like Redgard, hydroban or any other product specifically made for crack isolation. You have to have that 50mm of tile bonded to the other side of the joint. What the crack isolation does is allow any movement to be transferred over to your soft joint rather than have all the pressure built up directly over the joint. A membrane simply transfers those forces over to your soft joint where they can be compensated for.
If you do not bond that 50mm it will likely break the tile over that joint with no support beneath it. Another option is to use a highly modified thinset which will give that 50mm some flexibility in the bonding layer. Products like Laticrete’s 125 sound and crack isolation adhesive.
Hi Roger! I’ve finished nearly everything in my bathroom, but some baseboard tile trim on the bottom wall. It forms a 90 degree outside corner going around the bathroom towel closet. Can I simply bring the the tiles together providing a small gap and grout the middle or should I use silicon or is there a better way to do outside corners?
Thanks!
Scott
Hey Scott,
I normally miter the corners, but they still have the grout at the corners. You don’t need to use silicone there, although you can if you want. (Don’t tell the tile police I said that…)
Thanks! I really appreciate all your help! I’ve completed 98% of my bathroom remodel and everyone is impressed with the Shower Niche and the overall job. Of course I can’t take the credit for the idea–You’re a real blessing!
Scott
Doing a tile job- second floor over plywood floor. Bathroom but not the shower area. Only about 100 sq ft. About 9×11. Going to use the Ditra product and place a heating mat under the Ditra.
Could questions. 1. Best way to install the heat mats . products to install
thin set type.
2. Do we need the soft jointJ Using the long
wood looking tiles. from your article in may be below
the size where it’s required.
3. Any other handly tips. i did read your tips on using
Ditra the right way.
Thx Warren
Hi Warren,
If you read through this: Installing suntouch heating elements it will give you most of the answers you need in that respect. You should not need a soft joint, but make sure you leave a perimeter joint.
Hi Roger,
Your site has been fantastic in shedding light on some of my tiling questions.
Now I have a question: I have a 12×19 section of a basement a customer would like me to tile and they chose a 6″x24″ wood-look tile. The house is 4-5 years old but there are no visible cracks in the concrete floor, only a control joint that will run perpendicular to the tile. I told the customer that it would be better to have the tile running the same direction as the control joint to prevent the possibility of the tile cracking from movement (and to have a soft joint in a straight line versus a boxed pattern of the running bond). They seemed fine with that idea, but aesthetically, it would be better to run the tile across the control joint. What are your thoughts on this?
Also, I was going to use a few coats of RedGard over the control joint before I tile. Is this what you would recommend doing and is there anything else I need to use in preparation for tiling?
Hey Jason,
You’re correct. Aesthetically the best or not you need to be concerned with the mechanical stability of the installation. Running it the same direction is the better choice. Redgard will work well, it was originally manufactured as a crack isolation membrane.
I am about to tackle a tile over concrete patio project. In looking for info I found your site and consider it to be the most informative with an air of trustworthiness not found in any other, thank you Roger.
My patio was pored at two different times, original slab plus extended about a year later, is approx. 500sq ft and the only expansion joint is the 5/8″ wide wooden board where the two slabs come together, it runs across the length for about 3/4th of the way then 45 degree back to the house (this 45 was original, addition squared it up. The questions I have are, 1) can I cut the 5/8 wood down below grade without hurting integrity, 2) if so should I bring the height back up level with the slabs and if so with what.
I understand that I either need to include an expansion joint for my tile directly over the concrete joint, or use a membrane and place my tile expansion joint as close to the concrete joint as possible, BUT my last question is how do I accomplish this along the 45 degree angle joint?
Hey Mike,
1. Yes, you should be able to cut the wood down without any problems.
2. No, there’s no need to bring the height back up.
You do need the soft joint (as well as one every 8-12 feet also). Ideally you should cut the tile at a 45 over that angle. Yes, it will be cut into the tile installation. Another option is to lay the tile so you have tile running over that 45 from corner – corner on the tile. Then you would need a soft joint around the entire perimeter of every one of those tiles. It is not as effective, may not prevent the tile from cracking if you have a lot of movement, and you may need to reinstall the soft joint often, but it won’t compromise the rest of the installation. It will limit any movement to the tiles directly over the 45 joint.
WOW, you know what they say about expectations, “setting yourself up for disappointment’s” I was expecting to wait days for an answer, definitely not disappointing, you are awesome.
Thank you for the tips, hopefully I can incorporate the angle cuts into a pattern, replacing soft joints or cracked tile “often” I can do but would rather not have to
Do you have any experience with concrete staining, something else I was considering?
I’ve seen it done, never done it myself.
Thanks Roger, I have some high and low spots in the slabs, what is the best way to knock down the high spots or is a complete underlayment required? is Level Quick, self leveling underlayment a good product for the low areas? after I get it all level should I prime the entire surface before thin set and tile placement? it looks like I can set my soft joint directly above the expansion joint in the slabs, do I still need to insert a crack resisting membrane over the concrete joint?
Sorry for all the questions, I have never done this before, sure do appreciate your help, not everyone would do what you are doing for us DIY’ers.
You can knock down high spots with a grinder and a cup wheel. Low spots can be filled with slc, the level quick is a good product. No need to prime before tile installation. Crack membranes are not required if your soft joint is directly over the expansion joints.
Thank you Roger, I think I am ready to tackle the project.
Hi Roger,
I have knocked down the high spots and identified the low spots, circled them, in your previous answer to my priming question it is not necessary for me to prime before I apply my thinset, should I however prime before I apply the slc? I have chosen a 18 x 18 Travertine tile with a 3 x 12 bull-nose boarder across two sides and around the 3 bricked pillars, I plan on using 1/4 grout lines (this will put my grout line directly center over the slab expansion joint) and grout with sanded grout (except for the soft joints that will be about every 9 ft. in both directions and around the perimeter of the house)
Do you think the 3″ wide bull-nose at the edges will hold up structurally? The Travertine is not highly polished so scratching is not a concern (I have been reading all about your tips on grouting) but I am concerned about the grout getting into the finish of the tile, should I seal the tile before I grout? Aldon has a product called “grout easy” that can be washed off with excess grout, have you used this, what do you think?
Thanks,
Hey Mike,
You need an expansion space around the perimeter but you don’t need to install silicone in it (soft joint), it can just be left open and covered with base. The three inch bullnose should be fine, no reason they’ll be any less structurally sound than the field tile. The Aldon product is a grout release, yes it works well. It does not, however, seal your tile. You’ll still need to seal the installation when you’re finished.
Thanks Roger,
I was aware that the Aldon product was just a film that will be removed after grout and then the sealing process performed.
Your statement “it can just be left open and covered with base” would not apply for my project, outside covered patio with the brick walls of my home making up 2/3 of the perimeter, with an open length of 30 ft across front and 127” along one edge (it is these two dimensions that I plan to add the 3 inch wide bull-nose tile). Will it be OK to fill the expansion gap I plan to leave around the house with calk, I do not want an open gap that will collect dirt and trap water?
Oh, in that case yes, you can fill it with silicone around the perimeter.
Can you have a soft joint run a circuitous path? Think Versailles pattern (but not really).
Yes, just follow the grout lines. As long as it goes from end to end it’ll be fine.
Hi Roger:
I am moving along on the longest bathroom remodel in the history of man(woman) and I am preparing to lay shower floor and the bathroom floor. I have (surprise!!) another question. I need to leave a space between the wall and the floor tile to allow expansion. The Schluter site offers to sell me a product for all those joints, and I know there are others, but couldn’t I just fill the 1/4 space with the same caulk as used in a control joint? Or even unccolored caulk since it wont show under the baseboard, or where the wall tile meets it in the shower. Please advise, my dog is getting nervous.
Hey Sally,
Yes, you can simply leave a small gap and silicone or caulk that. You don’t need the schluter profiles.
Your dog should be fine.
Hi, Roger,
Do you know where I can get the proper kind of (colored) caulk to use as soft joints between ceramic tiles that I am laying on a concrete patio? I found a company that sells a product called Duo-Sil in many colors, but they told me it was too soft (Shore-A = 68) to use for a foot-traffic application and that they don’t have a product for that purpose. I’m not sure what specifications I need to be looking for or where I can find the proper product.
I really appreciate the help!
Karen
Hi Karen,
Latasil from laticrete and tec both are silicones approved for foot traffic. You can find either online or one or the other at most tile supply shops.
Hi Roger, great advice.
I’ve received varying advice on the following project at my house in South Florida. I have ~500sqft covered patio with a concrete substrate and 3 control joints spaced out about 10 feet. Also, the tile I want to install is a 6″ x 24″ porcelain tile that looks like a wood floor…so, I would have to stagger the tile. After reading your article, and the various posts, I intended to lay a crack suppression underlayment across the entire surface, and then add the soft joints in a zig-zag pattern over each expansion joint. Does this seem like a reasonable approach? I also considered first laying redgard, then the underlayment, but I didn’t want to spend the extra $$ for overkill that is not really necessary.
Just FYI, the house and floor is only 4 years old, and no visible spider cracks in the floor (yet) except within the expansion joint.
Any further advice you can provide is most helpful. Many thanks!
Hey Ryan,
The better option would be to turn the patter 90 degrees and lay the straight lines over the control joints. That way you would have a straight control joint right over the expansion areas. But if you need to have the patter installed in that manner then running a zig-zag control joint will work just fine. And it is my honest opinion that when it comes to exterior installations, especially decks, there is no such thing as overkill.
Roger,
You helped me a great deal with my shower project question last month. THANK YOU!!
We’ve got about 2 weeks left until our baby’s due (so any day now) and we’ve begun to pull up the nasty carpet in our walkout basement. By “we” I mean me and by “nasty” I mean, well, nasty. To my delight, under the carpet and matting I found 1) cheap linoleum from 1972 slapped to the slab with Elmer’s glue for adhesive, 2) a 1/8″-1/4″ crack in the slab essentially cutting my house in half, also 3) the discarded debut album “Whole Oats” by Hall & Oates (that’s how I knew it was 1972). Ha ha! I’m only kidding, of course! I don’t think they used any type of adhesive.
The height offset of the slab surfaces at the crack is very small, I’d say 0.050″, and the room is about 20’x20′. My question’s are:
1. Is there anything I can inject or patch to fix the crack? (probably not)
2. What can I do to keep the floor tile (12″x12″) from cracking in the future?
3. Any good experience with electric radiant mats? Besides warming the floor in our Michigan home, I thought they might help buffer the tile floor from crack growth. Thoughts?
Just ’cause I’m that kind of guy, I’m including some pics. First, the original tile under the carpet, and second, the broken tile showing the crack in the concrete slab.
Many Thanks,
Michael
Hmmm… I hope the forum allows some HTML, or at least links.
Pic 1
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/V4s9HHG7v4HFAcvCzcLkDPck1F_68r6y2nEg7kkfk60?feat=directlink
Pic 2
https://picasaweb.google.com/116602069561788745051/HomeImprovements?authkey=Gv1sRgCIi6_KC2_KmsRg#5682115447167651794
-Michael
Whole Oats, huh? NICE!
You can use a crack suppression membrane such as redgard (that was actually the initial purpose of it) and brush or roll on about three coats to 3″ or so on either side of that crack. I don’t use the mats – I always string the wire. I honestly don’t know how much it would help cushion it. I’m sure it would help, I just don’t know how much. As long as you use a crack suppression membrane over that you shouldn’t have problems with cracking tile.
Can I install 12 x 24 tile in a stacked bond pattern on a shower wall? It’s only a 48x34x84 high space and I would like to use large tiles for a modern look. Basically it would be two stacks on the long wall, then one centered stack with a 5″ stack on each side for the short walls. I read something somewhere (always dangerous, right?) that commented on potential problem with stability with large tile in that pattern. Thanks.
Hey Elisabeth,
Sure you can. I would suggest no longer visiting the site on which you read such misinformation.
The only problem you’re likely to run into with the large format in that pattern is that all manufactured tile is ‘cupped’ to a degree, which means the center is a tiny bit higher than the outside edges or corners. So when you use that pattern you’ll have the corners directly in the center of the adjacent tile – lowest part right next to the highest part. The NTCA now recommends that all large format tile in a running bond pattern be set with a 1/3 offset rather than 1/2, it helps minimize the differences. But you can do it however you wish – it can be done. And it will be just as stable (more stable, actually) than using 6×6 tiles.
Actually, I was asking about stacked bond, not running bond…..(don’t tell me this is another one of those web sites…??) so all the tiles would be stacked directly above each other and all the grout lines would be aligned, so to speak ( type….) so basically the cupping would create a slight undulation across the wall surface from stack to stack? My real concern was with the tiles slipping down the wall because of their weight – but if I use spacers, it should be OK? ( not trying to answer my own question, just hoping for confirmation) Wish I ‘d found your web site years ago….for the great advice as much as for the laughs. I’ve always used the expression ” my head will burst into flames” but never imagined my dog was at risk. :o)
What type of ‘websites’ would that be?
If the tile is not offset the imperfections due to cupping of the tile would not be noticed. As long as your bottom tile is either fully supported or already cured and you use spacers you won’t need to worry about tile sliding down the wall at all.
Thanks. So by “already cured”, I should set the bottom course and let cure before moving up the wall? (Makes sense……what a concept, huh? )
Yup, that’s what I mean. Set the first row then set the rest the next day. It gives you a solid base to build up from.
Thanks. Next question- do I have to have a curb on my shower or can it be curbless like a wheelchair accessible shower? My existing bathroom has a hideous fiberglass enclosure that has got to go. I would love to have the new tiled shower without a curb to stub my toe on every morning. Since the floor joists and subfloor are already in place, I’m thinking it is more difficult to retrofit this than it would be to build it from scratch to get the slope to the drain properly set. I know there are gasket type collapsible dams that can be glued and sealed to the floor, that you can run a wheelchair over but don’t especially want the institutional look. (i’ll be there soon enough……) I have seen European wet rooms with no shower separation, but don’t know how that flooring is sloped. What do you recommend?
Doing that requires rebuilding the joist structure and shoring up the present floor since you’ll need to drop the joists or cut them down a minimum of 1 1/8″. The European wet rooms are designed from the start with sunken areas and recesses for any areas which need to be sloped. Retrofitting it is a fairly large undertaking.
Great site! It is answering many of my questions. I am installing almost 500sqft of 12 x 12 porcelain tile in my kitchen. We are doing it for our landlord for a break on our rent. We pulled out 1970’s glued down industrial carpet (yes, in a kitchen, gross). I spent a week scraping off the remaining glue and pad. The floor has minor level problems and normal cracking for the age of the house but it is flat. I suggested a membrane but the landlord just wants to mortar right over the old concrete floor. It is his floor and I am tired of convincing him otherwise. The kitchen is 25 feet long (very big). We are doing a brick layout to help break up the length. It sounds like we need a soft joint but how do you do that with a brick pattern. The width of the kitchen which is 16 feet. Do I do it that direction?
Any other suggestions for this floor are helpful to. oh, and we are thinking of 1/16″ grout lines.
Hey MollyMo,
With a running bond (brick) pattern you do have consistent, straight grout lines in one direction – put your soft joint there. Unless your offsetting them in the short direction, in that case you can simply follow one grout line back and forth from one side to the other.
You’ll want to check the flatness of those tile, especially using a 1/16″ grout line. All tiles are ‘bowed’ to an extent, just make sure it isn’t bowed enough to leave considerable lippage when placing the corner of one tile next to the center of the other.
I’s totally unaware about soft Jointing. It seemed to me something like joining the tiles lightly. But, I once came to no this is not like this. Then I read this post and acknowledged clearly about what is a Soft joint and how to install it effectively. Indeed, your other posts are also useful and informative.Keep informing Roger.
Glad I could help Alen.
Wow… That was a quick answer . Are you an elf lord or what .
Well , there are few reasons it is important to know about understanding guidelines or using guidelines .
Any other literature , other than the TCNA guidelines ?
Considering 2 large areas of 1000sf , same level floor , one installed over mud bed with modified thin-set and the other on plywood with Ditra , both with porcelain tiles , how large the soft joints should be ? Is the width important ?
I am not talking about movement or expansion joints . Because there are differences in between movement joints and soft joints. How much of movement is expected in those applications and where is situated?
What are the considerations for them ?
As you describe them , with the must importance , I am really curious to have your understanding on using them .
Roberto,
I understand your question although I’m a bit confused as to why you are asking it? You describe two 1000 foot floors with different installation methods, which would mean different placement, location and size of expansion joints – each installation dictates different methods. You are asking me about other literature – other than the TCNA guidelines???
The Tile Council of North America ‘guidelines’, as you refer to them, are the minimum installation standard as far as general tile installations as a whole are concerned – I’m unsure what else you would be looking for? Each state, county, and even city may dictate their own standards, but rarely do. As far as ‘guidelines’ for tile installation are concerned here in the US – the TCNA is not the guideline, they are the standard.
Maybe you’re talking about the American National Standards Institute? The NTCA standards are all based around, and take into consideration the ANSI standards. If you follow the NTCA standards, the ANSI standards are, in most cases, covered.
As far as how much movement is ‘expected’? C’mon, you should know as well as I that is a question that cannot be definitively determined without at least an in-person, hands-on examination of the particular area on which it is to be installed. Not sure what you’re fishing for, here.
The bottom line is this: I created this site for Do-it-yourselfers, we are currently discussing a subject that doesn’t really apply to anything a diy’er would tackle. If you would like to discuss the professional applications and understanding of any of the TCNA standards, or any other that you may be implying about, please join us at the John Bridge Forums in the Professional’s hangout and you will not only get my take on this stuff but the opinion of several of the country’s best installation contractors as well. That would be the place to discuss matters such as this, not the comment section of an article I wrote for diy’ers tiling their bathroom floors.
Fair enough.
I will for sure get there.
As far as I understand , you tell that it is a must to have them – soft joints – .
Aside from guidelines or recommendations , what are the bases of having them ? Do you have any literature which explain how to make them and why you need them , regardless of your situations or layouts ?
Roberto-
The TCNA standards for movement joints – vertical and horizontal – are covered in the TCNA handbook under methods EJ171 – A through I. There are ten standards in there which describe nearly every scenario. As a professional you really should get a copy of this handbook – every standard that I state and methods I describe are covered in these standards.
The methods I describe when I write something like this – especially when I emphasize the need for these things in this manner – are not simply my personal opinion on the matter. While I do post things in which personal opinion do come into play – such as the running bond corner joints on which you commented earlier – I always state that they are an opinion and there may be more than one way to do it.
While the methods in this standards handbook do describe what is needed, when, and proper methods of different installations it does need to be translated into something which normal people can understand – that’s what this site is about. If there is anything here that you are questioning it will be in that handbook. As a professional you should be able to interpret them with no problems – get yourself a copy, it’s invaluable.
Do you need a control joint on walls?
Hi Cliff,
You do not need control joints on interior walls unless they are over 25 feet long or high. If they are larger than that – yes. I didn’t mention it because that would be an awfully large wall and most people don’t even have one wall that large in their house without any windows or openings in it. If it is one solid, non-interrupted wall over 25 feet then yes, you need a control joint on it.
Exterior walls need control joints as well every 8-12 feet. Interior walls exposed to direct sunlight DO NOT need the joints every 8-12 feet – it’s because of the wall substrate and the fact that it has open space in the wall cavity behind it. Interior only larger than 25 feet.
Great question – thanks!
So how do you leave a control joint for on-point installations if the control joint in the concrete below is perpendicular or parallel to the walls? I’m not doing such a thing – just curious. Do you do the control joint in a zig-zag pattern, or do you have to cut the tiles in half so that the tile control joint and the concrete control joint are aligned?
Hi Nicole,
The technically correct answer is to cut a saw joint directly above your control joint in the concrete and fill it with caulk or silicone. Yes, it looks like shit, and no, the standards don’t care.
I don’t do that. If I run into that situation I will use a flexible crack suppression membrane as far out each side of the concrete joint as possible, then I use ditra as my underlayment, then I zig-zag it. Technically correct? No. Ever had a problem with it? No. Ever will? Possibly. In which case I will replace the floor, do it technically correct, and call it a very expensive lesson learned. But I don’t think that will ever happen. I leave enough of a perimeter joint and the zig-zag patterned control joint which, short of something like a mall or airport, should give the tile installation more than enough movement ability.
Excellent question!