Tile FAQ’s
The list below contains the most commonly asked questions about tile and installation methods. For each one I have included a (very) short answer. I already have, or will have in the future, a post about every one of these. If that post already exists the question will be a link to the article.
I will continue to add to this page as the questions come up. If you have a question just leave a comment at the bottom and I’ll include it on this page.
- Can I install my tile with no grout lines? No you should not.
- Are tile, stone, and grout waterproof? No they are not.
- Does grout help stabilize tile, hold them in place, or make them stick better? No it does not (Epoxy grout is different.)
- Are mastic and pre-mixed “mortar” acceptable to install tile on a floor or in a shower? No they are not
- Are there any “magic” products available to remove stains from your grout and tile? No there are not.
- Should I seal (or re-seal) my tile and grout? Yes you should.
- Does tile require a lot of maintenance? Not a whole lot but it is by no means maintenance free.
- Will sealing your tile and grout make it waterproof? No it will not
- Can I simply stick tile to the drywall in my shower or the plywood on my floor? You can but it won’t last – so no.
- Can I fill my cracking grout with more grout? Maybe. Read the article for a more complete answer.
- How large should my grout lines be? It depends on the tile size and the look you want.
- Do I need a waterproof membrane for my shower walls? Yes, a membrane of some sort is required. Read the article for the different types.
- What should I use to set my tile? It depends on where you are installing the tile.
- What type of grout should I use for my tile? It depends on the tile and where it was installed.
- Can I install floor tiles on my shower walls? Yes you can.
- Does my floor have to be level before I install tile? No it does not.
If you have any suggestions or questions please feel free to leave a comment.
{ 58 comments… read them below or add one }
Hiya Mr. Elf,
I am new to tiles so just a quick 2 questions. In concrete hallway, putting glazed tiles in but what is the best way to transition in the doorways? The ones with transitions already installed (to the bathrooms and laundryroom) I left down, but the two bedroom doorways have none as they are carpeted like the hallway was. Eventually, I would like to put the same tile in both bedrooms too but can go as extra money allows. Also, when I took up the tackstrips, a couple of the nails/screws left little divots in the concrete or the heads came off and the nail is still there. How do I deal with that? Thanks in advance for your help.
Cynthia from OK
Hiya Ms. Cynthia from OK.
If you plan on installing the same tile in those rooms eventually the best thing to do is simply put down another piece of tack strip after you install the tile and install the carpet directly up to the tile. Leave about 3/8″ space between the tack strip and the tile and the carpet will go over the tack strip and trimmed so that it can be tucked in that space between the tile and strip. If you do it this way all you have to do is take up the carpet and tack strip when you’re ready to tile those rooms.
The existing nails can be either pulled out (if the head remains) or simply pounded down into the concrete if the head of the nail is missing. Often trying to pound it down into the concrete will remove the nail with a little chunk of concrete. Those divots that remain from the nails can simply be filled with thinset. When installing the new strip it would probably be best to get an adhesive product made specifically for that. Any flooring supply shop should have tack strip adhesive that comes in caulk-size tubes and is installed with your caulk gun. You can always pound nails into the concrete like it was BUT this is actually a skill that takes much practice to be able to do without smashing tile – trust me on that one.
Mr. Elfin Magic,
In your e-book on page 23 it says the following: Place a piece of your floor tile on the base of the drain – on the upper part of the flange – and unscrew the barrel of the drain until you reach one inch. As long as the barrel is still firmly screwed into the flange at this height you have enough to create a 1 1/4″ top mud bed. If the drain falls out before you reach 1 1/4″ (it won’t) – go with 1″.
There is nothing more about the “piece of tile.” I don’t see it in any of the pictures. What’s the piece of tile’s purpose?
Also, on a previous submission, you said you add lime to the mud mix for the curb for stick-to-it-ive-ness. How much?
You haven’t responded in awhile. Hope all is right with your world.
Sincerely,
Susan
Hiya Susan,
The tile is placed there when measuring simply to gauge the height of the tile and ensure that you have enough room for your deck mud AND your tile. Without the tile as the gauge you may be just on the edge of having enough room for the deck mud. Then when you install your tile and attempt to unscrew the barrel another 1/4″ or so you don’t have that much room – oops.
I put that in there because people (myself included) tend to get tunnel vision when preparing the shower, making all the measurements, etc. and getting them exact and forget to take into account the width or height of the tile which will be installed upon it. You need to make sure your substrates are all the correct measurements for the substrate plus the tile. After you ensure there’s enough room for both take the tile out – use it as a coaster if ‘ya want, it’s just there as a gauge. 
Fat mud, or deck mud with stick-to-it-ive-ness, is simply deck mud with lime added. The ratio that I use when mixing fat mud (that’s what you are making for your curb) is one part lime, one part cement, and four-five parts sand. You basically add the same amount of lime as cement. For a full mix of fat mud I use one bag of sand and topping mix, 1/2 bag of sand, and 15 lbs. of lime. Obviously you don’t need 90 lbs of fat mud for your curb so you can simply add lime to the deck mud until it’s sticky enough or, better yet, simply mix up a small batch of fat mud with those ratios (1-1-4.5). It takes a lot of practice to mix the correct amount of lime into already mixed deck mud so the small batch would be a better option.
Everything in my world is perfect – you know, when I’m sleeping.
I have a LOT of things going on so I’m not able to post as much as I’d like here but I’m always around and always respond to questions – eventually – when I’m sober. 
You can always check out my pro site (the one where people don’t know I’m a jackassery master) to see what I’m up to. TileArtCenter.com
Happy 4th!
Thanks for the headsup on the waterproofing. I am going to pour the pan then decide on the half wall or glass then mud the curbs. That will allow me to use the liner one way or the other.
Thanks for the info on the vapor barrier. There was no vapor barrier between the studs and the cement board when the shower was built twenty years ago. That’s why I asked. I thought that was strange.
Susan
Uh-oh, already built both curbs. I haven’t quite decided if I will install a large piece of glass on the long curb; that’s why I built the long curb. I’ll decide (or should I say the bank account will decide) on glass or half-wall after I get the pan tiled. I’d like to do a walk-in shower with one big glass wall and no door. Realistically I’ll probably do a half-wall of tile and a smaller glass panel.
What I’d really like is if you lived in South Florida and I could afford to pay YOU to finish this. I am an animal control officer and I’m certainly not in that business for the money!
Day off……Back to work………………………………
S
Well, that’s fine. I was just pointing it out that it would be easier if you simply built the half wall rather than the curb. If you end up with a half wall on top of that you will need to address the waterproofing for it and ensure that any water getting to your moisture barrier or waterproofing will be directed down into the shower basin.
No biggie, though. I charge three times as much if someone else worked on it first – just sayin’.
Hiya,
I got my brick curbs installed…whew. My arms are so sore this morning.
My concern is that the edge of the brick, being soooooo sharp, will cut the liner where it meets. Should I be concerned? Is there something I must coat the edges with before tacking down the liner? I was thinking a bead of silicone where the liner meets the corner of the brick.
Does the cement board go over the liner on the top of the curb so I can install the tile on that?
I am going to build a half-wall on the top of one of the curbs. I plan on layering that curb with the liner and then the frame for the half-wall. Is that correct?
Did I mention that you are my hero? If not, you are!
Susan
Great, now I gotta put a cape on my elf…
The liner is more durable than you may think, the edges of the brick aren’t going to puncture it. A bead of silicone will only create an excess air pocket beneath your liner – you don’t want that.
No cement board on the top of the curb. The liner goes over your curb, then wire lath, then ‘wet’ mud (which is just deck mud with powdered lyme in it to make it sticky) then the tile is adhered right to the mud after it cures.
If you are building a half wall it’s easier to build the wall then run your liner up the half wall (3″ above the top of the curb) then put cement board on the face of the wall. Just treat it like another full wall in regards to liner placement. No need to build a curb, waterproof it, then build your wall.
You’re my hero too.
Me, again!
I have sanded and sanded. I can’t seem to get the perimeter of my pre-slope level. Can I add more deck mud to the existing? Or, should I put in the liner and level the pan when the mud is wet? It’s sloping really good to the drain but one side is higher than the other. (Much more of this and I might be in the same condition!)
I am going to place the bricks for the curbs then sand some more.
Thanks for your suggestions,
Susan
Hi Me again,
As long as everything is sloping down to the drain your pre-slope is fine. Try sanding it with the rough side of one of those bricks – seriously
And yes, you need to level the top mud bed while the mud is wet.
Howdy!
Loved the “flawed” page. You’re right…just like a train wreck.
So, I have poured the pre-slope and now have to sand some areas. Next is the curb. Can I use brick pavers or must they be concrete? I plan on building a half-wall on top of one of the curbs and installing a door on the other. I plan on using Tapcons to attach the half-wall frame to the curb. Thoughts?
The deck mud wasn’t so difficult although I’m sure it is an acquired skil to slope it just right without having to go back and sand some.
The husband pointed out the inconsistencies on one side. Everyone’s a critic.
Thanks for your continued help and jackassery,
Susanl
Howdy Susan! You are officially the first to greet me in that manner.
You can use brick pavers, they will work just fine. I use the concrete simply because they are conveniently sized for most applications and readily available. Brick pavers will work just fine, though.
Your husband pointed that out because that’s his job – he’s a guy, it’s what we do.
I have a another whole batch of this train wreck to upload. It’s just sitting there on my computer compromising the structure of everything around it. I’ll have to get those put up – stay tuned.
Hello again Roger,
I say silk, my husband says red. Please help us settle the matter… Thank you soooo much for all your great advice!
Still haven’t started the grout. Most of the onyx is honey and we have a border in red and green. We decided to go with red grout in the red areas because we don’t want it to be so defined. We are using the silk color for the honey tile. Question: what color do we do first?
Well hi Elizabeth,
Sorry, your husband is right on this one. Whenever you mix grout colors in one area you want to do the darker color first. It’s a lot easier to get the lighter color off the dark than the reverse – especially with epoxy.
Tell him he owes me a six-pack. (Pepsi, of course
)
Greetings!
I got the first part of my new drain installed today. Made the deck mud and the subsequent pre-slope. The potholes weren’t very bad; more like your birdbaths. I am going to have to sand one corner as it is higher than the opposite corner width-wise.
The Oatey liner I bought suggests using the Oatey adhesive (go figure) but from what I am reading an adhesive is not necessary. Your e-book doesn’t mention adhesive. Your opinion?
Also, is it necessary to put roofing felt under the liner? Shouldn’t the liner be alright as long as there are no jagged edges on the preslope?
I am really enjoying this blogging thing. This is my first! Usually not interested in the goings-on of strangers. But, you are strange in a humorous sense. :o)
Regards,
Susan
Hey Susan,
An adhesive is only necessary when gluing two pieces of liner together for an extremely large shower or for use with the ‘dam corners’ for the top of your curb. It doesn’t necessarily need to be ‘oatey’ brand but you do need to make sure it is for the correct material. (pvc glue for pvc liner, cpe for cpe, etc.).
You do not need to put roofing felt beneath the liner. The purpose for roofing felt on wooden subfloors is so that the wood will not leech the moisture out of the deck mud prematurely and weaken the base. This is of no concern with your installation – you’re good to go.
I’m really enjoying this blogging thing too! This is my first.
Now my wife doesn’t have to take the full brunt of my jackassery, I can spread it around. 
Hello Roger,
I think I asked this before, but it has been so long, I forget…we need to seal the tile before grouting, correct? Is dupont’s grout release a good product for this? Or do you recommend something else? We will be using the spectralock grout and would like to know what the best finishing sealer would be also. Thanks!
We have finally! finished laying the onyx tile in our bathroom.
Elizabeth
Hey Elizabeth,
To be honest no, you do not need to seal onyx before grouting it. The face of onyx is nearly like glass so it will not soak in the spectralock and it definitely won’t be difficult to get off. I would just go ahead and grout it as it is. You don’t need a grout release for onyx and I really don’t know how effective it would be with epoxy anyway – never done it.
Dupont sealers are mostly all good sealers. You want to get one specifically for natural stone. Sealers are one thing that you get what you pay for. The more you spend the better the sealer.
You know I expect pictures, right?
It may take some time, but I promise to send pictures. It is absolutely gorgeous! It looks like something out of a palace and I’ve already warned my husband that I expect to remodel the whole house to coordinate with it.
Awesome!
I’m not going anywhere (my wife won’t let me) so I have plenty of time.
Make sure you tell your husband that FloorElf guy had absolutely nothing to do with that particular aspect of your project.
Jesus, did I just type ‘awesome’? I need some sleep…
Hi there! Great info. !!
I’m building a bathroom in my basement. My problem is that there are four cleanouts right where the floor will be. I don’t want to use cleanout access panels like the ones we find in shopping mall floors. They seem ugly and are very expensive.
To make the cleanouts accessible once tiled someone suggested choosing fairly large tiles for the floor and placing one directly over each cleanout location. Now to make them easily removable silicone would be used to fastened them to the subfloor. Then we would just grout around them.
I’m wondering if there’s a better option?
Thank you!
Hey Hubert,
That is actually probably the best way to address the situation if you do not want the cleanouts to be seen. I would actually use a color-matched caulk rather than regular grout around the tiles. That way if you do need access to them you can do that with just a razor knife. Your plan will work only if the cleanouts are in spots that will not be walked upon. If someone steps on one of those tiles that are adhered with silicone there is a good chance they will be cracked or broken. If they are in a traffic area I would find some type of cover you can live with.
(I’m feeling redundant
)
Roger,
Thanks for the advice. BTW sorry for the double posting I was looking for my initial post and could not find it for some reason, thought it was lost in cyber space.
Back to my bathroom:
1) If I use regular plywood for my sub floor how thick does it have to be? The 2x3s under it will be placed every 12in oc. Is 3/4 in enough?
2) Since I’m using regular plywood is it ok to use pressure treated wood for the 2x3s underneath…… you got me worried when you talked about how it shrinks when it dries out. I would use rust resistant tapcons to fastened them on the concrete slab.
Thanks.
Hi Hubert,
Not a problem at all, I misplace a lot of stuff in cyberspace.
1) Any wooden subfloor needs to be a minimum of 1 1/4″. The 12 in. O.C. should be fine but you need the thickness and the individual panels need to be offset. Screw the first layer into the 2×3′s and screw the second layer only into the first – not into the 2×3′s.
2) You can use pressure treated but you need a cleavage membrane beneath them over the concrete. You don’t want the 2×3′s taking in moisture from the concrete. Tar paper (roofing felt) is fine.
Thanks!!
Roger,
I am really enjoying reading your blog. The information has helped me alot and cleared up things that were confusing me before I found your site. Also I love your sense of humour.
I have a question if you could please respond.
We are going to be tiling a tub surround and have chosen the method of 6ml. poly and then the backerboard. One problem is with one of the walls on the 32 inch side is an exterior wall. An older home from 1940 and when we gutted bathroom to the joists we saw that the construction was cinder blocks , so we were told to put a layer of black roofing paper up against the blocks then our insulation. Now for that wall if we put our 6ml. of poly before the CBU would that be one layer too many of a vapor barrier (because of the Black paper) .Should we skip the poly on this wall or add it also. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
Hi Joan,
I’m assuming that between this roofing paper and the CBU you have studs with insulation between them, yes? As long as these studs are not enclosed at the top, ie they end at the ceiling and the top would be enclosed (no ventilation once sealed with cbu), you should place the poly on this wall as well.
I’ve just confused the hell out of everybody, huh?
If the space behind the CBU will not be sealed at the top (have someplace to vent) you should use poly. If the studs are simply running from floor to ceiling and the cavity will be enclosed, forego the poly. The purpose of the poly is to keep moisture away from your studs. It would be best to have the poly in there if possible.
So that’s the proper answer. Here’s what I would actually do if I were sober…
You can also simply place a 6 inch strip of roofing paper over the face of the stud between the stud and cbu. Just staple it to the stud so there is about 2″ hanging from each side and just screw your cbu up as normal. Having only the strips will prevent moisture from getting to your studs as well as not creating a ‘moisture sandwich’ between the two barriers. That’s what I’d do, ‘course I’m an elf – what the hell do I know?
Hope that helps. If you have any more questions at all please don’t hesitate to ask.
Roger,
Thanks for that advice.
It makes sense to me and I think we will go with the way you would do it.
Joan
in reading the how to create a shower floor, I am noticing my contracter did all your never do’s
My question now is with the curb for the wooden floor I know my contracter used pressure treated wood , as he told me he did so they would not rot, I notice your site says never do this. What to do know the shower is completly done, what are the ramifications of him doing this?
how much of a mess am I in
Hey Vicki. I replied to your previous comment with a bunch of questions – I’m an inquisitive bastard like that.
If he used pressure treated wood for your shower you will eventually need to at least replace the curb. The moisture injected into the wood is nearly double that of normal or KD lumber. That simply means that eventually that moisture will evaporate. When it does the wood will slowly shrink – and perhaps twist. This will crack your grout and eventually pop tiles loose. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
If you could answer the questions on your previous comment here I will be able to help you more effectively. If you are not comfortable posting the info here you can email me directly at floorelf@floorelf.com with the answers.
Just an FYI for everyone – the ‘used pressure-treated wood so it doesn’t rot’ excuse from any contractor does nothing but show off their ignorance on the subject. (Ignorance not in a derogatory context – simply uneducated about it). The only thing that will rot wood is moisture. If your shower is correctly built you could build your curb out of paper mache – it will NEVER see any moisture – ever. That is simply reasoning of someone not educated in proper methods – period.
Hello again Roger,
Thanks for all the great info. We are about ready to begin installing onyx tile in our bathroom. We’ve already been told we need a really good saw with a diamond blade to ensure clean cuts. What nobody seems to be able to tell us is if it’s possible to round and polish the edges with a grinder or something for the edge pieces. Also, can you tell us how to cut the tile on a curve, like with a jigsaw? Is it possible? Thanks again for all your help!
Hi Elizabeth,
It is absolutely possible to bullnose onyx. HOWEVER, onyx is a very fragile stone and very, very difficult to round and polish. Not really a job for a do-it-yourselfer. Not implying you can’t do it, just that you shouldn’t, it could get very expensive fairly quickly. If you have a stone fabricator somewhere nearby they should be able to do it for you. It will probably cost you a bit but believe me, it’ll be cheaper than the replacing the broken pieces from learning how to do it yourself.
If you go to my professional site I have photos of an onyx backsplash with bullnose pieces on the ends. Just click on the pictures in the post and they are really huge files so you will see a lot of detail. It’s here Onyx Backsplash Installation in Fort Collins
If you do want to do it yourself the equipment is also quite spendy, I’m talking about $750 just for the basics. Having a pro do it for you would be cheaper than that. You have the basics correct – a grinder is the base tool – but it is a specific grinder which feeds water to the pads while you polish. The pads run 75-100 each.
To cut a tile on a curve you can buy a ‘diamond ring saw’ or a ‘diamond band saw’ (just google those) or you can do it with your regular wet saw by cutting a series of small, straight cuts in progression around the curve. Just draw your curve and make a straight cut so that just one small part of it actually barely touches the outside edge of part of the curve. Then rotate your tile about 5 degrees and repeat. It is tedious but it works well. To polish off the ‘flatness’ of the curve you can actually hold the tile against the side of the wet saw blade (the diamond part on the outside of the rim) and ‘sand’ down the corners until the curve is nice and smooth. Like I said – its tedious.
Just so you know they do make a diamond blade for a jigsaw. I don’t know how well they work, I’ve never used one. But I can absolutely guarantee you it will not work on onyx. The movement of the blade itself will vibrate the tile too much. You will end up with nothing but shards of onyx and a bad attitude.
Hope that helps.
Roger,
I am putting 1″ honed honey onyx tile in my bathroom on the floors of the shower and the main floor as well. The very expensive tile store where I got the tiles also sold me sanded boned grout and stonetech sealer that they instructed me to use after I had grouted. Well, I just took them at their word and started with the shower floor. The tiles turned gray. I don’t know how to fix that problem and would appreciate your advice on that.
But I sure don’t want to make the same mistake on the main part of the floor. So I went to Lowe’s to look at the epoxy grout. I also thought I would try a color enhancer sealer to darken the tiles a little bit. The tiles now are set in white thin-set mortar. The color is still fine.
What do I do next? When can I grout and should I use the color enhancer first, then epoxy grout or the other way around. I worry the grout will look plastic against the tile. And there were several comments I saw somewhere that the epoxy grout colors are not what the package promises. Sorry to be a rambler, I am on tile overload after studying it all day. Thanks, Gloria
Hi Gloria,
Don’t panic!
Your tile actually probably turned ‘gray’ because it was wet. Before the grout sets fully and dries out there may be what looks like a ‘framing’ of the tile. Is the grayish color darker around the sides of the tiles? If so that is your problem. As the grout dries out and sets it will slowly go away. Give it some time and see if it starts to lighten up, it should.
I would not use a color enhancing sealer on onyx. Onyx is similar to glass and will not absorb much of the sealer and the result will be minimal, if any. If it is a good sealer, though, go ahead and use it. Although you may not see a lot of result from the enhancing aspect it will still seal your onyx. Stonetech sealer is very good stuff also, by the way.
You always want to seal onyx last. Grout first, epoxy or otherwise. If your epoxy grout is Spectralock it will come out the exact color you see on the sample – every time. I cannot speak to other brands as the Laticrete Spectralock is the only epoxy I will use.
The next thing you want to do is finish grouting your floor. Let the grout set and cure for 48 to 72 hours before you seal it. (The amount of time needed should be on the sealer)
Hope that helps. If you have any more questions at all please don’t hesitate to ask.
I have a customer that is allergic to many compounds. Specs call for a home made thinset. How do I go about mixing my own from scratch?
TIA,
Rick
Hey Rick,
Thinset in it’s purest, most base form is simply portland cement, lime, and sand to which water is added. Mixing it like this will leave you with an (extremely basic) unmodified thinset for basic tile installation.
Whoever spec’d a thinset mixed from scratch should have – or needs to – provide you with a recipe for such. If someone simply told them ‘I’m allergic to certain compounds’ they need to know what those compounds are. If not it doesn’t really solve the problem as they may, in fact, be allergic to portland cement. Or silicate. Who knows?
You need more (all of the) information if they expect you to be held responsible for this particular problem. If they want you to solve it they need to provide you with the tools to do so. If not – don’t touch it. Seriously.
Don’t just take someone’s word that you need to create thinset from scratch, find out why with details. Mixing thinset in this manner seriously compromises the integrity of certain applications. If that is something for which you will be held responsible you should make damn sure it’s necessary.
Just my $.02.
Thanx, Roger
I’ll let ya know how it turns out. Lew
Hello,
I recently had new porcelain tile floor installed. The tiles are beautiful, but unfortunately I hate the grout and it ruined the whole look of the tiles- it came out far too white after I was assured it would dry more ivory/beige. I understand it will change over time, but it’s simply not what i wanted and i now dread looking down when i walk into my home. The tiles were installed in a high traffic area and I fear that they (well the grout) are inevitably going to look permanently dirty. Is there anything I can do other than tear out the whole floor and start over?
Can I add a layer of grout in the color I like over the new (but dry) grout?
Does staining grout really work or does it ruin the tiles also?
I welcome any and all ideas you might have.
Thank you very much!
Hi Allison, sorry to hear of the problems.
The first thing to do is determine whether or not the “white” of the grout is actually the grout not curing to the correct color or it is actually efflorescence.
Efflorescence is caused by the minerals in the water migrating to the surface of the grout as it cures. After the grout cures and the remaining moisture evaporates the minerals in the water are actually left sitting on top of your grout.
Take a screwdriver or other small metal probe and scratch just the surface of the grout in an inconspicuous area. If the grout beneath the surface is the correct, desired color then that is your problem. You can normally get rid of this with a mild acid wash over the surface of your grout.
If that is not the problem the best solution, in my opinion, would be to remove and replace the grout. No need to tear up the entire floor. You can check out my post on that, just type “regrout” into the search box.
Grout colorants, while used by many people, are not something I use. They will not harm your tile. They do, however, make your grout look like it has been painted (the ones I’ve seen, anyway). If you could find one that would actually “dye” the grout rather than leave a colored layer on top of it, that may work for you.
Hope that helps. If you determine that efflorescence is actually the problem let me know and I’ll describe to you, or better yet, write a quick post on how to solve it.
Again, appreciate your advice, Roger -
Gonna’ get my liner on order, plus probably a new drain assembly. Things should move along pretty good by the time these come in, as long as my bum knee holds up! Will let you know results.
Hi, Roger!
Enjoyed reading your site. It is very informative, and your willingness to share your trade knowledge is admirable.
I have a shower situation which I’d like to ask some questions about. Shower is in my master bath and I am currently involved in redoing the pan to include a liner. When house was built 13 yrs. ago there was no requirement for liners or wall vapor barriers. I think the codes have now changed making them mandatory. Anyway, 5 yrs. ago we had the shower rebuilt following discovery of moisture wicking up into drywall & framing. I did the demolition, allowed for drying out, treated the accumulated mold and readied everything for a “tile professional” to do the work.
I’m an electrician and at the time was working lots of extended hours, thus did not really observe all the install. Consequently the “expert” 1) did not install a liner or vapor barrier and 2) followed the original slope going over the originally installed thinset. This, of course, raised the new tile lever almost 1/4″. To compensate, this yoyo piled thinset over drain receptor and surface mounted the grate using longer [cad plated] s/m screws. To have one pulled over on me like this is embarrassing because I’m rather particular.
I’ve been laid off since April, so figured I’d try my hand at improving this mess. Not wanting to tear out the entire shower, opted to remove 2 courses of perimeter tile, take up floor tile, add cpe liner and lap it up sidewalls 9-12″ and correct drain height. The walls will hopefully endure by the grace of gravity. Shower was built w/ regular 3000 psi concrete sloped to the drain, then tiled. The entire floor is sort of an “island slab” w/ about a 1″ expansion void all around the perimeter into subsoil.
Question 1: Do I need to jack out the entire floor or can I fill the expansion w/ backer rod , add liner, finish slope and tile?
Question 2: Is it absolutely necessary to use bedding mix for the pre-slope? If so, I’ll have to jack out the floor – aaarg !
Question 3: Another option would be to do pre-slope over existing floor plus liner and finish slope. This, of course, will raise floor level by some 2 to 2-1/2″. Any thoughts about that?
OK, know you about tired of all these words by now. I sure will appreciate your reading time and any encouragement you can pass along. Thanx, Lew
Hi Lew,
You can go with option #1. Fill the expansion with backer rod, place your liner over it and then your top setting bed for the floor tile.
It is not necessary to have the pre-slope made from deck mud. As long as it has the correct slope regular concrete is fine. The purpose of the pre-slope is to ensure that any water that reaches the liner is sloped to the drain and does not sit stagnant on a flat floor.
No reason to raise your floor that much with the whole works on top of what is already suitable as a pre-slope.
Hang in there! If you have any more questions just let me know.
Thanks, Roger -
Gonna’ recheck to make sure I’ve got adequate slope on original floor. This will sure save headaches! Thanx again.
Lew
Hi again, Roger -
OK, here I go again with this shower fix (fingers x’d)!
Have now torn out floor tile, plus some 20″ of Hardibacker and tile around the entire perimeter. Boy, cutting that cbu back to leave a reasonable splice point and not create a dustbowl was a real challenge! Took me 2 days using some “creative” tooling!
The previous installer had virtually spread his thinset over the original, following the existing slope. Stuff he used must have been a quickset type ’cause it hard as a rock w/ no elasticity. Apparently, thinset over thinset was the contributing factor to tile ending up higher than the drain.
Here’s what I propose to accomplish: 1) install pan liner lapping up walls and over curb (I will redo existing curb). 2) cut off 2″ pvc drain pipe as necessary to place new clamping drain at proper tile level. 3) retile, and hopefully, end up w/ a more efficient moisture shedding product. I hope concentrating on the most vulnerable portion of the shower will suffice for now.
Naturally, all this anticipation doesn’t come without more questions, so, if you’re ready, here goes.
As far as that expansion area around the perimeter, as you agreed, I’ll probably use backer rod to fill this area. If I can’t locate the proper size rod, could I just use mortar? Then can I lay new membrane on floor as is or is 15# felt recommended beneath as somewhat of a cushion against rough concrete and framing? Once membrane is down I intend to “tweak” slope as necessary with the top mud mix. Am I on the right track so far? Also, I’ve read some installers suggest notching the studs for the liner. If so, that means tearing out blocking to inset appropriately. I can see notching the corners where membrane is folded. What’s your thought here? Finally, are there any opinions on regular membranes; cpe verses pvc? I’m leaning toward Noble’s product since it is 5′ wide, thus no necessity to seam (shower is 34″ wide).
Can’t think of anything else at the moment, but certainly I will later! Sure appreciate your guidance. Regards – Lew
Hi Lew, Sorry for the delayed response.
Yes, you can use mortar or, better yet, dry pack to fill that space. You can just lay the liner on what is presently there. Using felt paper is for floors (such as wood) that will suck the moisture out of the dry pack too quickly thus weakening the bed. You don’t need it.
Notching the studs keeps the backerboard from curving out at the bottom of the shower. If you don’t notch the studs the wall will bend out at the bottom where it is placed over the liner causing all sorts of problems. Notching the studs creates a cavity in which to place the liner. You may be able to take a hammer to the blocking just enough to create this space, you only need about 1/8″ or so.
In my opinion either liner is just as good. Nobel makes great products.
Sounds like you are on the right track. Keep in mind that what you are doing is really only a temporary fix (albeit for a couple of years) and should be completely rebuilt when you can. For the short term, though, you will be fine.
Thanks again, Roger.
I’m hard at it! Ordered mat’ls from Noble. Before delivery, got plenty time to notch studs, check slope and replace drain. That’ll keep me busy! Lew
Well Roger, here’s one more whatya think question.
Got liner mat’l, sealant etc from Noble last week. A friend of mine happened over and wanted to peak at my project.
He told me he thought I outta be concearned about the existing shower floor not being connected to the rest of house slab; thinks it could sink on me later. My responce was that it had been there 13 yrs w/ no signs of sinking.
He thinks I should tear out the whole floor and start anew; repouring, using rebar to strengthen and tie to house slab.
I somewhat see the validity of his point, but not particularly crazy about the added labor. Should this be given any consideration? Thanx – Lew
Hey Lew,
I don’t think you need to be concerned with the floor not being “attached” to the rest of the slab. If anything were to be seriously wrong I’m fairly certain it would have failed by now.
That said, I absolutely believe the best thing to do would be to tear it all out and start from scratch. But, I also realize due to time and monetary concerns this is not always an option for everyone. The fix you propose would last quite a few years but would eventually need to be replaced. I don’t believe it would be due to anything drastic happening, but replaced nonetheless.
The final decision rests with you. I’m certain you would end up more satisfied if you start all over. But, like I said, time or money constraints may eliminate that possibility.
I know that isn’t really much help. Let me know what you decide to do.
Hey Roger,
Well, amongst other chores I continue on w/ my shower re-work. Discovered original floor wasn’t properly sloped, thus opted to tear out and re-pour.
All went well.
Prior to install of pre-slope, am in somewhat of a quandry over the curb. What exists is 3 stacked pt 2×4′s covered w/ 1/2″ cbu. Really can’t reuse this configuration since there will be no way of wrapping the liner w/o nailing thru it when reattaching new cbu. Should I consider doing away w/ the 2x’s and rebuild with brick? My height can’t vary since a solid glass door is sized to curb’s existing height. Sure do not want to buy a new one of those!! Then, if I do go to brick, how is wrapping of the liner accomplished; is it adhered to the brick?
Think this might be the final hurdle if you could guide me as to the curb. Thanx once again – Lew
Hey Lew,
You should rebuild it with brick. No part of a shower should be built with PT wood, it will shrink and twist as it releases moisture, that affects everything installed to it.
Once you get the bricks installed (you can do that with your thinset) you can wrap the liner up and over them and then get some metal lathe (diamond lathe) and bend it in the shape of your curb. Place that around your curb carefully as to not puncture your liner and the lathe will hold it’s shape and hold the liner in place. Then just mud the curb, let it set, and tile away.
Thanx, that sure sounds good -
Had given lathe a fleeting thought, but got scared off considering it would effect curb height, jeopardizing reuse of the glass door.
Finally realized that brick is some 1/2″ thicker than a 2x. So, using brick 2 high would put me 3/4″ below original (adding the 1/2″ cbu which topped the 2x’s). Do you think lathe, mud, thinset and tile will bring me within 1/4″ of the door sweep? If nec, can 1/4″ cbu be sandwiched w/ the brick?
I probably being overly cautious, but not being able to reuse the door IS NOT an option. Gonna await the “go sign” from you before I get going. Certainly appreciate your input. Lew
Hey Lew,
I think I would be more inclined to just add 1/2″ of mud to the top of the curb to bring it up to the height you need.
If you want to you could use cbu attached to the top of your curb to bring the height up to where it needs to be though. I would do it that way but you could sandwich it if you wanted to.
Hi there! Great info! My current issue is that I’m trying to get the following tile installed:
old-style unglazed porcelain rectified pinwheel tile (the ivory ground with a black square in the middle)
Well, the tilers did seal the tiles before installation, but during the grouting process, the charcoal colored grout I chose imbedded itself in the tiny micropores on the top of the tile. They tried so hard to get most of it off that the 1/16″ grout lines ended up being much shallower than expected (where you can feel/see the edges of the tile…also causing a pocket for any and all kinds of dirt to collect). The wanted to acid etch the grout lines to put more grout in there, but after everything I’ve read, I told them I’m not comfy w/ that. I spent all day on Saturday trying to saw out the grout w/ a grout saw, but the lines were pretty narrow and alllllllll the little lines around the black square in the middle…grrrrrrr. I decided after doing about 1/4 of the floor that I couldn’t take it anymore, and thought maybe we just need to start over (at mostly my expense since I realized it was a risk to pick that tile).
I absolutely love the tile and am prepared to buy more to start over, but I’m afraid that the issues we encountered will happen again. So, first of all…is there a product that will not allow the grout to get imbedded into the tile during grout installation (for instance, Aldon Grout Easy)? I’ve read about the product; sounds good…like it will do what I need, but if it comes off during the normal cleaning of the grout after installation, then seems like you would still have the staining problem at the end when you’re wiping it up. I haven’t been able to find any reviews on it.
Also, is there a trick to not overwork the grout during cleanup so the grout remains at the right height? And, they did use unsanded grout…do you recommend we use epoxy instead?
And lastly…should I just stay away from this tile? I really love it for my 1929 home, but can it ever come out right? As cool as it looks, should I just decide not to use charcoal colored grout next time?
Okay…really lastly…what is your favorite product for getting grout haze off tile after installation? I was down to full vinegar, a brush, and some magic eraser pads. This did pretty well…just not in the pits.
Thanks a bunch!
Robin
Hi Robin,
Sorry to hear about your problems, that sucks. What type of sealer did your installers use? That should have been enough to remove the grout from the face of the tile without many problems. At this point you may want to try some sulfamic acid which you can pick up at Home Depot or any big box or hardware store. Make sure you try it in an inconspicuous spot first to make sure it doesn’t harm the tile at all, it shouldn’t.
The problem I hear more than that, though, is the low grout lines. The grout has to be removed from at least 2/3 of the line to regrout it.
If you choose to redo the entire thing I would probably place two coats of a topical sealer and test to make sure the grout won’t fill pits in the top. A grout remover may work for you.
You may also want to check into the Laticrete one-step installation method. This is a method by which the grout color is added to the actual thinset then you would essentially set and grout at the same time. Just google it, you’ll find a lot of info about it even though it is relatively new. If you choose to go that route I would get contact paper and place it over the front of every sheet to keep the grout/thinset off the face of it. The grout/thinset actually enters the grout lines from the back as it is set.
Hope that helps, let me know what you end up doing so it maybe would help someone else in the future.
You have done an incredible job on this site. I have been in the industry for 24 years and have concentrated on the highest quality and your knowledge and insight is on the money. I commend you for excellent work.
Thank you Dan. Your comments are appreciated very much.