The days of grabbing a three dollar bag of “thinset” and sticking floor tile right to the plywood in a bathroom are long gone (for professionals, anyway). For a proper tile installation you need a proper substrate. One of the most readily available are cement backerboards.  These include products such as Hardiebacker, Durock, Fiberboard, wonderboard and a host of others.

When properly installed on your floor it is an ideal tile substrate for a quality and lasting installation. Notice I said typed “properly installed”? Laying them down on the floor and shooting drywall screws through them does not constitute proper installation.

Choose your weapon. I prefer Hardiebacker or Fiberboard. Whichever you choose make sure you get the proper thickness. With rare exception the 1/2″ variety would be the best choice simply because I like to overbuild stuff. With proper floor framing and deflection ratios, though, you can use 1/4″ to minimize height differences. This is not to say that 1/2″ adds significant sturdiness to your floor – it does not.

Dry fitting Backerboard on floor

Dry fitting Backerboard on floor

You need to realize that cement backerboards, or just about any tile flooring substrate, does not add deflection stability to your floor. That is the up and down movement in your floor when you walk, jump, or use a pogo stick on your floor. The backerboards will not significantly diminish that movement. This needs to be addressed by adjusting your floor joists and framing – not by adding stuff on top of them. If your floor is bouncy without the backerboards it will still be bouncy with them.

Bouncy is not good for tile. (There’s a sentence I never thought I would say type.) I will, however, address deflection ratio in another post.

Start by ‘dry fitting’ all your pieces. This simply means cut and lay your pieces into the room without attaching them. Get all your pieces cut, holes cut out, and doorways undercut to fit and lay everything in there just like it will be when installed. This saves a load of time, mess, and headaches.

Backerboards dry fitted into room

Backerboards dry fitted - notice gaps in seams

The joints in backerboards should be staggered. that just means that none of the seams should line up across the room and no four corners should be placed together. By staggering the seams you add strength to the installation simply by not having a significant weak point in the substrate.

You also want to leave 1/16 to 1/8 inch gap between each sheet – do not butt them together, and around the perimeter. If you butt them together you leave no room for expansion. The backerboard will not expand, but your walls will. If everything is butted tight and your wall expands into the room guess what happens. That’s right, your dog may burst into flames and no one wants that! It will also cause your floor to pop loose and possibly ‘tent’ or peak at the seams.

Beneath the backerboards you need thinset. Just about any thinset will work but you need to have it there. skipping this step virtually eliminates the purpose of preparing your substrate for tile – you may as well go grab that three dollar bag and start setting tile now. You need it – really.

Installing thinset beneath backerboards

Installing thinset beneath backerboards

Now that you have them all laid in there properly pick one side of the room to start on and pull a row out. You should only pull out one row at a time to place thinset beneath. That way you can replace them easier and in the proper position. If you pull out the entire room you may get to the last piece and discover everything has shifted 1/2″ and the last piece needs to be cut again. Not really a big deal but you won’t realize it until the backside of it is covered with thinset and you now need to pull it up, wipe the thinset off the wall from pulling it up, cut it, clean the thinset off your saw, snuff out the flames engulfing your dog (again), and replace it. It’s a bit easier just to pull one row at a time.

You need to trowel thinset onto your floor. I cannot overemphasize this (well, I could but you’d get sick of hearing it). This step is imperative for a proper tile installation. The thinset is not meant to ‘stick down’, adhere, or otherwise attach your backerboard to your subfloor. It is simply put in place to eliminate voids beneath your backerboard. Once laid into the thinset bed the floor becomes a solid, fully supported substrate for your tile – that’s what you want.

If you have an air pocket or some certain spot in your floor that is not level or flat with the surrounding area and you simply screw your backerboard onto it this will create a weak spot in your floor. Constantly stepping on that spot will, over time, loosen the screw and your floor will move.

When your floor moves your grout cracks. When your grout cracks your tile may become loose. When your tile becomes loose your tile may crack. When your tile cracks your dog will burst into flames – again. Put thinset beneath your backerboard. And put your dog out.

Installing thinset beneath backerboards

Installing thinset beneath backerboards

Once you have the area fully covered with thinset you can lay your backerboards into the bed of thinset and screw it down. DO NOT use drywall screws! Let me repeat that – THAT! Drywall screws are not made, nor are they sturdy enough for your flooring. You will either bust the heads of the screws off or be unable to countersink them into the backerboard. Hard to get a tile to lay flat over the head of a screw.

There are screws made specifically for cement backerboards. You should be able to find them at any hardware or big box store. They have grooves on the underside of the head which will dig into the backerboard and create its own ‘hole’ in which to countersink the head as it is screwed in. How cool is that?  If you look closely at the photo you can see the ‘grooves’ beneath the head. They are more expensive than drywall screws – just so you know. But you need to use them.

Backerboard screw packEach manufacturer has their own specific spacing instructions for screwing down the backerboards – follow them – really. Some say every 12″ and some want every 6 – 8 inches. The board you use will determine the spacing. (And its right there on the sticker so don’t tell me you couldn’t find it.)

Start your screws in the center of the board and work out. This eliminates undue stresses on the boards. If you screw all the way around the outside and it is not perfectly flat you are going to have to release that pressure somewhere and it

Backerboard screw

Backerboard screw

won’t happen until you have all that pretty tile on top of it. Working from the center out eliminates that. It would probably never, ever be a problem but if you’re anything like me your installation would be the millionth one for that one in a million occurrence.

Backerboard placed into thinset and screwed down

Backerboard placed into thinset and screwed down

Your floor is probably too thick (should be) for the backer screw to actually penetrate into the floor joist. If not, or just to be safe, do not place screws into the area above the floor joists. The plywood or chipboard which makes up your floor will expand and contract at a different rate and, more than likely, in different directions than your joists. If you screw your backer into the ply and into the joist six inches over it will cause inconsistent movement – no good. Do not screw your backerboard into your joists.

After I have all my floor down I will go back and double the screws around every seam. Just put another screw between every screw along the seams. It helps me sleep better at night.

The last thing you need to do is tape your seams. Get an ‘alkali resistant’ mesh tape – similar to drywall tape – and place it over all your seams in your floor. Then mix up some thinset and trowel it over the tape with the flat side of your trowel. Just like taping and mudding drywall. This will make your floor one large monolithic structure and lock it all together. You want alkali resistant tape so it will not break down due to chemicals present in most thinsets. I do not have photos of this because I do it as I set tile.

That’s it! Congratulations, you now have a perfect floor for your perfect tile installation. When installing floor tile – or any tile for that matter – the most important aspect of the installation is always the preparation. Everything beneath your tile is important, if any one aspect is done incorrectly it may compromise the integrity of your installation. Take your time and do it correctly, you will be much happier for it.

Now go put your dog out.

{ 1721 comments… add one }

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  • Murray Quillen

    hey how you doing. Iam pretty handy but not sure about one thing.I doing tile under a washer and dryer upstairs on second floor have you ever heard putting plywood down first and then wonder board to fight movement or doing the old wetbed on plywood thanks

    • Roger

      Hi Murray,

      I’ve done both. They both work just fine. Make sure you put thinset between your backer and plywood.

  • Phillip Ferreira

    Hi Roger,
    the bathroom remodel it’s happening on the second floor of my house – a 8.5×7.9 feet in size
    After the demo, I noticed that the floor had a big hump – I was able to remove the 3/4 plywood, shave the joist a bit ( up to 1/4 in max in one area) – they are 2×10 fir or pine, and them layed a whole new sheet also of 3/4 (rated for sub-flooring)
    after screwing the new sheet down,, filling the gaps and applying an expansion joint all around, I poured two bags of slc to make the whole thing flat
    I had to put the project on hold for a couple months, but now I am noticing some floor bounce that I am pretty sure was not present after the SLC.
    So, my questions are:
    as I am applying ditra in the whole floor -except schluter foam pan area, will it be ok for large tile – 6×24?
    If not, should I remove the whole floor again and apply a double layer of plywood?
    or could/should I apply a layer of plywood or cement board on the existing?
    or should I access the flooring from below and double joist and/or bridge the existing joist?
    the joists run parallel to a load bearing wall and then some stop at the stair case framing – about another 6-8 feet from bathroom wall (ok this is confusing and I can provide you floor framing schematics.)
    Thanks
    Phillip

    • Roger

      Hi Phillip,

      It depends on how much ‘bounce’ you’re talking about. Ideally you should have a double layer of ply under your slc. But if the bounce isn’t that significant then it should be fine with ditra.

      • Phillip

        Hi Roger,
        well, the weird thing is I have not noticed the bounce before, but the reason I really noticed this time was because I had a double line laser on a tripod to align the wall tiles, and as I moved, so did the lines.
        Now regarding the 2nd layer – too late to put it under the slc….but can I place over? and if so, what would be the recommended way to do it?I know that I will have to go perpendicular to joists on this one, but will I need to spread thinset or other compound between slc and new ply aside of proper and longer screws hitting the joist ?
        Thanks

        • Roger

          You can not install plywood over slc.

  • Leonard

    Roger
    Plan on laying tile in a remodeled kitchen. The substrate is 3/4 plank. Can I lay
    30# felt paper over planks and apply thinnest and hardie backer board on top
    before installing tile.

    • Roger

      Hi Leonard,

      You can, but a better method is to go over the plank with 1/2″ ply, then thinset and 1/4″ backer.

  • Anthony

    You said that you can immediately tile once backerboard is screwed in, but if you need to tape the seams, dont they need to dry before tiling??

    • Roger

      Hi Anthony,

      No they don’t. I actually tape them as I’m setting tile.

  • Amanda

    Hi Axel!! My husband and I just came across your site (which I’m thoroughly enjoying). We had seen prior instructions to use construction adhesive between the plywood and backer board… which… we did. Eeks. What are you thoughts on that?

    Second question… when using the fiberglass tape and dealing with thinset, would we fill the seams with thinset, then tape, then thinset again? And if it’s not too much trouble, why/why not?

    We really don’t want our dog to burst into flames once, let alone “again”. Lol. I like your humor even though we’ve just begun reading your entries!! Thanks!!

    • Roger

      Hi Amanda,

      You do not want construction adhesive beneath your backer. The reason is the beads of adhesive leave voids between them, which means voids beneath your tile installation – the very reason you use thinset to avoid voids.

      Yes, fill them with thinset, tape, then thinset over the top. You are attempting to create one large monolithic structure from your backer which moves as one, rather than individual sheets which move independently.

      • Amanda

        Roger, (sorry… I got you name wrong the first time) thank you for your response. Well… sh**. We’ve already sued the construction adhesive and it’s not budging. (Ugh). Now what? We’re not pros by any stretch of the imagination, but were so excited to finish our first homeowners project. My husband in no way is willing to tear it up so I guess we’ll have to continue along. Thank you for both replies, I guess we’ll see how long the adhesive lasts… Which makes me nervous. I wish we’d have come across your site first for all the tips and tricks. Next we’ll figure out how difficult it is to cut our tile with little a tile saw. Wish us luck and some length of time on our tile! Thank you again!

        Gulp.

        • Roger

          It is in no way a guarantee that your floor will fail. I can’t guarantee failures, all I can do is recommend methods that guarantee that it won’t fail, knowwhatimean? It may very well be just fine for as long as you want it there.

  • Ken

    Hi Roger,

    My bathroom floors extend under my walls for about an inch. Is the required gap from the plane of the wall, or where the floor actually terminates? I understand the concept of this gap, so the answer would seem to be from the terminus, but perhaps there is a vertical gap that needs to be adhered to as well and so it is from the wall plane? If that is the case, is it then covered by trim? Thanks for the help!

    • Roger

      Hi Ken,

      From where the floor itself terminates.

  • Jackie

    Is sanded grout good enough to fix the cracking grout on bathroom floor?

    • Roger

      Hi Jackie,

      No it is not. If there is cracking grout on your floor you need to figure out the reason your grout is cracking. Grouting over it or simply regrouting will only last a short amount of time before it cracks again.

  • Federico

    Roger,
    I know you build it to last, but is there anything I can lay between the subfloor and thinsetted cement boards to make a potential removal of tile in the future easier? How does one go about getting rid of thinset from a subfloor? Thanks again!

    • Roger

      Hi Federico,

      You can lay tar paper between the ply and backer. You can scrape, grind or replace the subfloor with thinset on it.

  • Chris brown

    Hi, and thank you for the posts very helpful. I have plywood subfloor that in bathroom I was going to put down 1/2″ plywood for floor strength then do 1/4″ hardieboard over it my question is do I need the 1/2″ plywood or should I just screw the hardieboard to the subfloor.

    • Roger

      Hi Chris,

      If your layers of plywood are a minimum of 1 1/8″ then no, you don’t need any more ply over that. If you just have 3/4″ then I would install another layer of plywood over that before the hardi.

  • Justin

    Should I leave a specific gap between the backerboard sheet and the walls and tub? Great site, very helpful!

    • Roger

      Hi Justin,

      1/16″ – 1/8″.

  • Arturo

    Hey Roger,

    I have vinyl floor over particle board. The floor is solid, no squeaks.

    1. Can I put cement board over vinyl?
    2. if not, can I put cement board over particle board?

    Thanks for your help.

    • Roger

      Hi Arturo,

      Yes, you can put it over there provided you use thinset beneath it and you use screws long enough to go THROUGH the particle board and into the substrate beneath it.

  • Jackie

    Hi Roger and thanks so much for all the insight!

    I’m preparing to install small mosaic tiles on a tiny bathroom floor (plywood subfloor) and planned to lay cemement backboard just as you had, but all the thinset specifications I’m seeing indicate that I cannot apply directly to hardwood or plywood. Do I need to prime or seal the plywood prior to the thinset I put down under the cement board, or can I use Greenskin? Or is this overkill?

    • Roger

      Hi Jackie,

      No, you do not. The thinset beneath the backer does not actually need to bond to anything. It is only there to fill any voids at all between the backer and the plywood. Put down the thinset, lay the backer in it, screw it down and you have a nice solid floor with zero voids beneath it (that means zero movement, which cracks grout and tile). You can use any thinset you want to do that with.

  • Mauro Palma

    Hey Roger great post and advice. Question: I do not have OSB substrate nor plywood, only 3/4″ thick by 3 inches of planks along the 6×2 inches of 16 metal gauge joists, to ease on vibration. The cement board is 1 inch. Reason for this: no Costa Rica wood is expensive as hell and common practice is to avoid it due to rainforest termites etc. actually 90% of costarican homes, commercial and industrial new buildings hardly use any wood at all (that’s my own empirical data right there) and focus on all-non organic material: gypsum, studs, galvanized steel, cement boards… Except in coastal areas.

    The joists are pretty leveled except for maybe 3/32″ from head to tail on a 10 feet bathroom.

    1. My only option is steel screw directly into joists 1 n 5/8″.

    2. The boards’ deflection should be able to accommodate that tolerance of a level difference between joists?

    Thoughts? Thanks so much, cheers from paradise!

    • Mauro Palma

      Oh and joists are 16 OC apart and pretty study’ no bounciness

    • Roger

      Hi Mauro,

      You would be hard-pressed to find a cement board screw that will go into metal joists I would think – I’ve not seen or heard of them. The boards themselves do not have a deflection rating, they do not figure at all into the deflection ratio of your floor. They can be unlevel, they just have to be flat.

  • David

    Hi Roger,

    I’m about to put my thin set under my 1/2″ backer board and a local contractor at Lowe’s suggested I put felt paper under my thin set. He said if I didn’t I’d never be able to remodel in the future because I wouldn’t be able to remove it.
    I’m really scratching my head now.

    Your thoughts?

    • Roger

      Hi David,

      My thoughts are to NEVER install anything planning to remove it in the future. Everything I install is permanent, it is meant to be that way. I want whomever tears out my installations WAY into the future to be cussing my name for years afterward. You can actually create more problems than it’s worth by doing that. Install your tile like it’ll never be removed.

  • Dan S.

    Do I need to put a waterproof membrane on the floor over top of the backerboard or is the membrane only necessary in the shower itself?

    • Roger

      Hi Dan,

      Only necessary for the shower.

  • Alon Abramson

    Hey Roger,

    Thanks for putting together the site. The posts and the ebooks have been enormously helpful as I (slowly, ever so slowly) rehab my house. I have a tiny (18 sf) bathroom that’s just getting tile on the floor that I know I could knock out in a day, but I have a question… Do I need to let the thinset under the backerboard set up overnight before I lay my tile over it or can I lay the backerboard, fasten it down, and then immediately lay tile over it?

    Thanks!

    Alon

    • Roger

      Hi Alon,

      You can tile over it immediately.

  • Jess

    Hello, i am about to build floor up for tile installation and I was given advice yesterday that id like to confirm or ignore.

    I have 3/4″ diagonal planks over joists for substrate. My aim is to get as close to my existing hardwood as possible and that is only 3/4″ above the planks.

    My orginal plan was to lay down 1/2″ plywood(glue and screw? , attach electric wire heating, pour slc, thinset then tile.

    However i met a tile installer yesterday that said I could lower the profile even more by screwing the planks to the joists for extra measure, then thinset and lay 1/4″ cement board directly on top of planks. Then install heating, slc, and tile after that. This could potentially save my a little thickness but i wouldn’t want to do it at the risk of my tile(8″×32″).

    In either case i was planning to use an anti fracture membrane as well.

    Is this advice sound? Or should i stick with my original plan? Basically is comes down to 1/2″ ply vs. 1/4″ backer.

    Thx in advance!

    • Roger

      Hi Jess,

      He’s correct, you can do that.

  • Axel

    Roger,

    What did I miss? Feedback time.

    Fortified my 7/8″ plank substrate with an additional 3/8″ and screwed every 6″. Overlayed a primer and Self Leveler to minimize peaks and valleys upwards of 1/4″. Once applied the result was a little under a 1/8″ tolerance. Deflection was not a concern, but level/flatness was as I am laying 12×24 tile. Applied thin-set with 1/4×1/4×1/4 and then 1/4″ backerboard. Screwed as instructed. Meticulously followed every step. I then went to check flatness. I was so excited to see how my efforts had paid off. Unfortunately I found new peaks and valleys. I jumped on the high spots. I even unscrewed one board and tried scraping high spots and back-filling low spots. It was very frustrating. It was to be my moment to bask in my hard work. It turned out to be a moment to avoid using words that would get my mouth washed out with soap. Any thoughts of what I missed or did wrong?
    Here are some thoughts I had: Being meticulous comes at a cost of time. I noticed that the thin-set under the high spots was gritty or dry, thus not displacing. And the high spot appeared to be where my self-lever was located vs over the wood substrate. Different dry rates?
    The final result is now a little over 1/8″ tolerance. Dare I use a self-lever again on top of the hardiboard before setting the tile?

    Thanks for your valued insights.

    • Roger

      Hi Axel,

      In the high spots, where you used the self-leveler, the leveler leached moisture from your thinset leaving it ‘gritty’ and unable to flow as it did in the lower spots. With 1/8″ difference I wouldn’t worry about it at all, you can make that up as you set your tile provided you use a large enough trowel. 3/8″ or larger should take care of that for you. Do not put more self-leveler over your backer, it’ll just end up being a big mess.

  • Bob Watson

    Hey, many thanks for all the great info.
    Question 1: what trowel size do you use for the thinset for the backer board?

    Question 2: After applying the ‘self-leveling’ to the plywood floor, I have a couple of spots now less level. Can I just use more leveling compound to level those spots?

    Thanks

    • Roger

      Hi Bob,

      1. Normally a 1/4″ square-notch
      2. Yes.

  • Rick

    I need your advice. Is there a proper way to install three 18 inch square by 1/2 inch thick granite tiles for my hearth so they will be flush with my 3/4 inch hardwood flooring? The subfloor is 23/32 T&G OSB 16 inch on centers. If I use 1/4 inch hardiboard substrate I have no room for the thinset below the hardi or the tiles. If I use a 1/4 inch bed of thinset and no hardiboard, will my subfloor be adequate to support the installation without cracking the granite tiles? What would you recommend?

    • Roger

      Hi Rick,

      You don’t want to go right over the subfloor. You can use ditra (1/8″) or something like tavy thin-skin or greenskin (1/16″).

      • Rick

        Thanks Roger for the info. Any idea where I could get a small amount of Greenskin, 18 inches x 51 inches? Everywhere around here (Naperville, IL) sells it by the roll. Thanks for any help you can give me. Rick

        • Roger

          Hey Rick,

          Here you go. Greenskin ICE

          • Rick

            Thanks for the info Roger. Great solution. Take care. Rick

  • Axel

    Hi Roger,

    Thank you for an excellent and informative website.

    You shared the following paragraph on “How to install cement backerboard for floor tile”.
    “The last thing you need to do is tape your seams. Get an ‘alkali resistant’ mesh tape – similar to drywall tape – and place it over all your seams in your floor. Then mix up some thinset and trowel it over the tape with the flat side of your trowel. Just like taping and mudding drywall. This will make your floor one large monolithic structure and lock it all together. You want alkali resistant tape so it will not break down due to chemicals present in most thinsets. I do not have photos of this because I do it as I set tile.”

    The question I have applies when the backerboard abuts another material like greenboard. I have a wall that is 1/4 backerboard. The other 3/4 is greenboard. The tile is continuous along the entire wall. The last 1/4 is part of the shower wall, thus the backerboard. Do I tape and thinset the greenboard just like the backerboard?

    • Roger

      Hi Axel,

      Yes you do tape and thinset the greenboard as well.

  • Dave

    Roger,
    Thanks for your help. Should I tile right over this substrate, or do I need to then install a Dita membrane over this?

    • Roger

      Hi Dave,

      As you did not ask your question as a reply to either my answer or the original question I have absolutely no idea what substrate you may be speaking of. If it’s an answer I gave you please put this under it by clicking the ‘reply’ directly beneath the answer. I (literally) answer an average of 50 questions per day. While I would like to remember every one, I’m gettin’ old, it doesn’t work any more. :D

  • Christina

    Great explanation, Axel! Im prepping a bathroom floor for tile and your post is super helpful! I now look forward to tackling this pronect and am a lot less intimidated about it! 😃

  • Patrick Preisinger

    I enjoy your writing. I also appreciate that you explain WHY or WHY NOT to do certain things. For example, I’ve seen the admonition not to screw into joists, but never an explanation of why. Thanks! Very Helpful!

  • Axel

    Roger

    My question is about high and low spots. I seem to only find info on low spots, unless it is a concrete floor and instructed to ‘grind it down.’ What do I do with a wood floor that has a high spot. Do I self level all around it using the 1/8′ per 10′ rule? Which would mean the entire small room.

    • Roger

      Hi Axel,

      You can use slc or you can sand it down. Keep in mind if you sand it down you need to ensure you have proper thickness of ply left before your backer goes down. If you use slc you can forego the backer and just tile directly to it.