This four part series describes methods to create a niche in your shower wall for tile. Please read through all four parts before starting. Your layout dictates the size and placement of your niche. You need all this information before making a hole in your wall! Or don’t – it isn’t my shower, eh? :whistle:

How to build a built in shower niche / shelfFraming

A shower niche, shelf, cubby, beer Pepsi storage, whatever you want to call it is one of the most requested add-ons for any showers I build. After all, everyone needs a place to store the important stuff – like your rubber ducky, as well as the unimportant stuff like soap and shampoo. So being the super-cool, quirky, lovable (with a healthy dose of jackassery) guy that I am – I’m gonna show you how to build one.

To the left you will see a photo of a niche with a shelf – we’re not gonna build that one. It’s just there to show you what you can do with the technique I am describing. I will explain how to do that in the last part of this series.

With any shower niche there are a couple of details you should pay attention to which will make it look like it belongs there rather than something you looked at drunk one night and thought “Hey! Let’s cut a hole in the shower wall so I can put my rubber ducky in there.” That’s not really a good look – rubber ducky or not.

One of the most important things I always do is line up the top and bottom (and sides if possible) with the grout lines in the field tile. The field tile is just the main tile on your shower wall. In doing this you keep the flow of the shower consistent and the niche doesn’t look like an afterthought – I hate that.

The way I do this is to actually install part of the field tile up to that point then I cut my niche out of the wall. This ensures you fall exactly on a grout line and don’t miss it by 1/4″ because you miscalculated. So, you need to have your wall all prepped and ready and some tile already installed before we start with the niche.

Before you start installing tile there are a couple of things you need to do. As you are preparing your walls for tile with backerboard, drywall and Kerdi, elastomeric liquid topical waterproofing membrane (No, I didn’t have my pinky in the air as I typed that. It’s just liquid membrane like Redgard) or whatever waterproofing method you’ve chosen, you need to write down the measurements to the inside and outside of the two studs between which you plan to install your niche.

Your niche needs to be placed between two wall studs. These are (normally) 14 1/2″ apart so assuming you have 12″ or 13″ tiles you can build a niche the size of one full tile wide. If you want one like the photo above it will be one tile wide and two high. Write those measurements down because once you get your walls up and ready to cut the niche out you need to know exactly where to cut.

If you have unusually placed studs (insert lame joke here) you will need to frame out the sides of the niche before covering them up with your wall substrate. Do not frame the top and bottom, only the sides. The top and bottom will be framed after we figure out exactly where they need to be placed and that happens after you already have some tile installed.

If you do end up framing it you need to add an inch to the measurement. If you have 12″ tiles make the studs 13″ apart. This is so you can add a 1/2″ piece of drywall or backerboard to each stud and have the correct measurement for your tile.

Completed tile shower niche

We're gonna build this one

The photo to the right is the niche I am going to walk you through. I chose this particular niche because it illustrates the point about the grout lines. And because I have pictures of it from start to finish. See how the sides and top and bottom of the niche all line up with the grout lines in the rest of the tile? It looks like it belongs there. That’s what I mean when I say type that.

This niche is 13 x 13 x 3 inches. The 13’s because that is the size of the tile and the 3 because that is the width of the bullnose. You can make the niche as deep as your wall will allow if you chose but(!) if your bullnose is only three inches wide and you choose to make your niche 3 1/2 inches deep (which is usually the amount of space between walls) you will have a 1/2″ sliver of tile on each plane of the niche behind the bullnose – and that looks like crap! So don’t do that.

Or if you chose to do that please tell everyone “the FloorElf showed me how to make that! Yeah, I know it looks like crap – he said it was gonna look like crap – but I did it anyway.” I’d appreciate it.

One more thing before we start (get on with it already!), this shower is built using the Kerdi membrane and drywall. You can, however, utilize this method with any type of shower you are building.

If you are using simply cement backerboard with a moisture barrier you will need to get Kerdi or one of the aforementioned fancy-ass word waterproofing liquids to make the niche waterproof. You cannot place a moisture barrier behind this and have it be waterproof – it simply won’t work. And your rubber ducky may burst into flames and who wants that? So snuff out your rubber ducky and lets get this damn thing built!

You may click on any of the photos below for a full-size version of how horrible my photography skills actually are.

Marking and cutting the opening for a tiled shower niche

1. Cutting the opening.

Photo 1: I have marked and cut out the opening for the niche. To the right of the niche I have installed a vertical row of tile and marked the lines with a level line from the grout joints between those tiles. That’s the big secret to getting everything lined up.

The opening is cut to the exact size. Notice on the right side of the opening you can barely make out the wall stud? That’s because there is 1/2″ space between the right side of the opening and the stud. I will install a 1/2″ piece of drywall there to bring the side flush with the opening.

In case you are unfamiliar with it – the bright orange on the wall is the Schluter Kerdi membrane. It is a thin polyethylene sheet which is installed directly to drywall to waterproof your shower. And its awesome. Just sayin’.

Inserting the horizontal framing for a tiled shower niche

2. Inserting the horizontal framing

Photo 2: Measure the exact distance between the studs. Measure the top and the bottom – they may be a bit different and these measurements need to be exact. Now add 1/16″ to the measurement and cut a 2×4 that size. One for the top and one for the bottom.

Place the 2×4 between the studs and tap it down with a hammer. Don’t bang on it like its the last DMV employee you spoke with – just tap it lightly. You do not want to pound it down too far. If you do you’re SOL.

If you do happen to pound it down too far you can drive a screw into the top of it and pull it back up. You may want to use the claw on your hammer to get a good grip on it. Do not pry your hammer back like you are attempting to pull the screw out! Just place it on there in the same manner and lift the 2×4 back up.

Top and bottom framing for tiled shower niche

3. Tap the 2 x 4's 1/2" down past the opening

Photo 3: Tap the 2×4 down 1/2″ past the edge of the opening you’ve cut out. Exactly 1/2″. This will allow you to install the 1/2″ drywall or backerboard to bring the top and bottom flush with the opening. Now put two screws into each one. Screw them from the front right through your substrate into the 2×4’s. You can see that in photo 4 – two in the top and two in the bottom. This keeps them in place.

If you did not previously frame the sides to the exact width (which I did with this particular niche so it is not shown) you will need to add additional framing to the sides to bring them in 1/2″ from the opening as well. You need every side of the niche 1/2″ away from the opening you’ve cut out of your wall.

Just screw any additional pieces directly to the side studs. You can use a 2×4 (1 1/2″ wide) a 1×2 (3/4″ wide) or build up 1/2″ and/or 1/4″ plywood strips to whatever you need to get them to the correct spot.

Sides of niche completed with substrate

4. Inside of niche with substrate installed

Photo 4: Notice the two screws through the wall into each horizontal framing member?

Cut strips of your drywall or backerboard to the correct dimensions for the inside of the niche. In this case two each of 3 1/2″ by 14″ and 3 1/2″ by 13″. The 14″ place on the top and bottom and the 13″ on the sides. Screw those directly to the 2×4’s.

The bottom piece needs to be slightly higher in the back than the front! It needs to slope towards the opening. This is to ensure that water drains correctly out of it. By slightly I mean very – less than 1/16″ higher in the back than the front. You can just place a small cardboard drywall shim or something similar under the back part of the bottom piece. It cannot be level but you don’t want the top of your shampoo bottle sticking out of the niche – knowwhatimean? Just slope it VERY slightly. Just enough for water to drain but not enough for your soap to slide out of it.

If you have installed the niche framing correctly the sides of the niche as well as the top and bottom should all be absolutely flush with the opening you have cut out. If not remove the offending piece and redo it. If it is not flush your niche will not come out correctly. Fix it now – later is too late.

At this point the top and bottom of your niche should be exactly level with a grout line. If so, well done, move on. If not, well, start over.

Now the final step in framing out your niche will be installing the substrate on the back. If you do not want a 3″ deep niche – you need to figure out the math yourself. If you do want a 3″ deep niche – hey, your in luck. I just happen to have photos of one.

Installing a filler piece for the back of the niche

5. Installing a filler piece for the back of the niche

Photo 5: Cut a piece of your substrate about 1/2″ smaller than your niche opening. This is simply a filler piece for the back. You want a 3″ niche and a 2×4 is 3 1/2″ thick. If you place a 1/2″ filler in the back of the niche POOF! – 3″ niche. (That’s a good name for a band)

Install this filler piece with thinset. If you have a wall on the other side of this wall you do not want to use nails or screws or your wife is gonna kill you for drilling a screw through grandma’s eye in the portrait hanging on the other side of that wall. Thinset is less heartache.

This is a perfect example of why you want to have at least a very general idea of your layout and tile sizes before you start any tile installation. Any add-ons you choose to use will usually center around the specific size of the tile to look correct. If you build your niche for 13″ tile and end up with 12″ tile, well, you’re screwed. It won’t look right. It will look exactly like what it is – an afterthought.

Installing the final back wall piece for your niche

6. The final piece installed and ready to waterproof. This is not yet waterproof! See Part 2

Photo 6: Then take the piece you cut out for your original opening and it will now become the back wall of your niche. And it better damn well fit. :D If it doesn’t, start over. Use thinset on this piece as well.

And that’s it, the basic building of your niche. General rules to take into consideration are:

You usually want to keep your niche the width of one tile. This eliminates any skinny pieces on either side of the niche or strangely placed lines and allows you to line everything up with a grout line. It also eliminates the need for a grout line through the back of your niche to keep the lines consistent.

Keeping the niche the width of one tile is the least important. It is open to interpretation more than the others. If you make it skinnier it may look better. Sometimes a square niche just does not look right and usually looks better in a rectangular shape instead. As long as your top and bottom measurements fall on a grout line you do not need to worry about funny cuts or lines. It’s your shower – make your niche however you think it looks best.

You want to make your niche the height of one or two tiles or one tile plus your liner piece or whatever else you’re placing in the field tile. You want it the height of whatever the space between two horizontal grout lines may be. This eliminates any “L” cuts in your tile to accommodate the niche.

Use common sense regarding whatever is on the other side of the wall you plan on installing the niche into. If there is a handball court on the other side of that wall – pick a different wall. Do the same when placing anything onto that wall. Don’t drive a 16 penny nail into it to hang a portrait of your gerbil – you’ll probably hit tile (or your rubber ducky).

If that particular wall is an outside wall and you live in a cold climate – choose another wall. You only have essentially 1/2″ of free space (your filler piece) between the back of your niche and the outside wall. You cannot get enough insulation in there to prevent freezing. And your shower will be cold, really cold. And your shampoo will freeze. Really, pick another wall.

If you have a liner or listello or row-on-point going through your shower a niche will usually look better with the top either right below it (as in the photos above) or even with the top of it. Make it look like you actually planned it. Not like this photo here:

Incorrectly installed shower niche

Garbage!

This is a photo of the shower I tore out and replaced with the one you see at the very top of the page. This is garbage! It was done by someone claiming to be a professional – bullshit! Click on it – I dare ya. Partake in the full glory of an improper tile installation. The person that installed this  is what I fondly refer to as a hack. If inflicting serious bodily harm ever becomes legal – these people are on my list. You just don’t take someones money and give them shit work and run like a little . . . sorry, I digress. Hacks piss me off.

A lot.

.

Correct placement of a tiled shower niche

Correct

I will, however, save all that fun for another post. My point was the overall look of the placement of the niches. It is way too low, it looks like a shelf for a phone with that corner bench. It does not line up (except for the very top) with any grout lines. It is not level, although you cannot see that very well. Basically it looks like someone drunk cut a random hole in the wall, stuck tile to it and called it a niche. It looks out of place – that’s what I want you to avoid.

The photo below it is from almost the same angle after it was redone correctly. See the difference? It’s all in the flow, baby! (Sorry, I had Sammy Davis Jr. going through my head just now – yeah!) It simply belongs. Very existentialistic, dont’cha think? (I learned that word in college. Comes in very handy in my day to day life as a tile contractor. :D )

In my next post I will describe how to waterproof your niche so all your hard work doesn’t disintegrate in three months. It is currently 2am and I am out of beer need to get some sleep. Until next time I would like to leave you with a photo that explains one of the biggest reasons I put my time into this blog to help you guys out. If you’re squeamish you may want to look away. Have a great night.

I give you: The Incorrect Way to Build a Niche!

Incorrectly tiled shower niche

Now that your niche is ready to waterproof let’s do that – you know, since you’re building a shower and they tend to get moist…Part 2 – Waterproofing a niche.

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Leave a Comment

  • Brooks

    Roger-

    Have learned so much here, thanks for all of the info!

    I am working on a shower now with 12×24 wall tile, a bench and a niche. I am planning on waterproofing with Hydro Ban. My question is, is it possible to frame the niche afterward when using Hydro Ban? I was kind of under the impression that the waterproofing wanted to be one continuous layer. Would it be better to just frame the niche where I want it and then start my tile pattern from the niche? (Not really concerned about the width dimension of the niche, just getting the height on the layout.

    Thanks!

    • Roger

      Hi Brooks,

      Yes, you can frame the niche afterward. Hydroban will bond to, and waterproof the transition to, the layer beneath it when it is painted over it.

      • Brooks

        Thanks so much Roger! :rockon:

  • Michael

    Great article! The niche in the “before” photo was a hack job for sure. However, the height of the niche was likely designed to accommodate someone standing or sitting, since there was a shower bench adjacent to it. For instance, a woman shaving her legs could easily reach a razor and shaving cream from the seated position. I fully agree with your sentiments regarding the workmanship, but I’m not sure aesthetics should automatically trump functionality. Ok, so “aesthetics” is too fancy a word for a discussion about tiles, beer and women shaving their legs. What can I say. :roll:

    • Roger

      Agreed. Functionality should ALWAYS trump aesthetics. At that point, though, I was ready to bitch about anything. :D

  • Joe

    Hello Elf

    Great tutorial and I am building a niche this week end following your instructions. On step 5 “Install this filler piece with thinset” my problem is the wall behind it is stucco over some tar paper.

    1) would thinset work on that tar paper?
    2) hanging something to a piece tar paper seems like a bad idea. It will degrade overtime.
    3) the wall is not flat, the application of stucco on the paper resulted into some nasty bump that are up to 1/2″. That is why I can’t use a preform niche and have to build my own.

    Any way to attach the filler piece to the studs?
    Any advices you can give me on this?

    Thanks in advance Elf

    • Roger

      Hey Joe,

      1. No

      2. Correct

      3. Use a piece of plywood as your filler piece, screw it into the studs and you’ll have a flat, solid backing for your niche.

  • Chuck

    Hi Rodger,
    On section one of “how to build a niche for you shower” I have a question about the back wall. I am using Kerdi membrane I am planning to thin-set it to drywall. First what do I use to cut it out? Second, in your example you reused the cut out for the back wall of the niche but before you did that (photo 5) you Added a piece of substrate about 1/2″ smaller than your niche opening ( drywall). I am assuming that when I cut the opening my Kerdi will be attached to a ½ thick drywall. Am I missing something? Thanks, Chuck

    • Roger

      Hey Chuck,

      It all depends on how wide your bullnose it. I did that to create a 3 inch deep niche as that was how wide that particular bullnose it. With anything less than 1/2″ you can normally just add more thinset behind the tiles in the back of the niche.

  • Joe

    Are there just 2 parts to this thread? Expecting to see 4, but can’t find links to #3 & #4

    • Roger

      Hi Joe,

      Part 3
      Part 4

      Also, at the end of every post are links to the previous as well as the next article. If it is a multiple part series the next post will always be there.

  • Joe

    Hi Elf,

    I was surprised you are putting the top and bottom 2×4 after installing the wall. I thought I would have those solidly attached to the studs first and cut the walls to expose the niche then attach the walls.

    I think your method is easier as far as measurement goes. But how solid is it when the 2×4 is only attached to dry walls (as when we use Kerdi).

    Thanks

    • Roger

      Hi Joe,

      It’s more than solid enough. How solid does it need to be with shampoo? It isn’t a step ladder. :D

      With the way that everything overlaps the substrate, as well as the tile, overlaps the wall substrate which also supports the shelf. Never had, nor heard of, any problems with this technique.

      You can also screw those supports into the vertical studs as well if you want to.

      • Joe

        Good to know it’s strong enough. I will try this on my next shower.

        I always thought the weight of the 2×4 is already to much for the 2 screws in the drywall to hold over the long haul. I obviously under estimate the strength of drywall :bonk:

        • Roger

          If you wedge it in there between the vertical studs there is no weight at all to it. The screws simply keep it in place while you work around it – and prevent it from moving. It isn’t necessarily supporting the weight, though.

  • Dan

    Great website

  • Jim J

    Glad I found your post on constructing the box for the niche. I have already tiled the plumbing wall and most of the long wall of my tub surround, and in a few days I will start the niche installation on the wall opposite the plumbing.

    I was planning on building 2 niches approximately 9Wx12H about 6.5″ inches deep (plenty of space behind that wall). I was going to place them one above the other with one row of tile between.

    I am doing a running bond on the field tile like you have using 3″x6″ white subway tile. I was planning to use 12″ white floor tile (cut to fit) for the inside of the niche with 2″ bullnose tiles for the edges.

    However, after looking at the niches you built, I like the appearance of the running bond inside the niche and the narrow shelf dividing the niche. So I am going to change my plan to a single 9″x24″ opening with a narrow shelf dividing it into upper and lower niches. (To me, the narrow shelf looks less clunky.)

    Question: Would a piece of marble tile work for the shelf? The only drawback I see is it would be a slightly different color.

    Great instructions. Thanks.

    Now for a Snarky Remark per your request :wink: :lol:
    I notice that on the left side of the your niche in the top photo, the left side doesn’t quite line up with the vertical grout lines above and below. Is that a goof??

    • Roger

      Hey Jim,

      Marble works very well for that. It will also look better if you use marble as the base shelf in the bottom as well, that way they both match and it looks like they fit a little better than just having one marble shelf in the middle of everything.

      That’s not a goof – it’s a stud. :D You only get (normally) 16 inches between studs. With the substrate and tile on the inside of both those studs you’re left with only about 14 1/4 inches. Doesn’t line up so well with 4 x 8 tiles. Nice catch, though, most people don’t notice stuff like that. If it’s any consolation it’s the first thing I see when I look at photos of that shower. :D

  • pam glover

    Who carries the Kerdi ?? I have been to five different places (Home Depot, Lowe’s and tile stores). Getting frustrated!!!

    • Roger

      Hi Pam,

      Go to the pros desk at Home Depot and they should be able to order it for you. If they don’t stock it they can have it shipped in since the company does carry it in a lot of stores. That shouldn’t cost you any extra, they can have it on their regular truck. If that doesn’t work let me know where in the country you are and I can find out for you.

  • David

    Roger,

    I have installed a 4 mil vapor barrier and durock above my newly installed bathtub, as well as taped and mudded all the joints and transition to the sheetrock above the durock. I am now thinking a Niche’ would be nice. I am concerned that I cannot install one being I would be cutting through the vapor barrier (behind the durock), and rendering all of my careful waterproofing up to this point useless. Any ideas here without having to start from scratch with a differenct water-proofing method? Much appreciated.

    • Roger

      Hey David,

      Yup, cut your hole out for your niche then silicone the barrier (plastic) to the back of the durock around the perimeter of that hole. Except for the hole your shower is still waterproof. As long as you get the niche waterproofed it’ll be fine. The best and easiest way is with a liquid waterproofing over the face of it and three inches out onto the wall around it. Alternatively you can install plastic into that holes over your framing for the niche, then your backerboard. Use silicone to seal any flaps or cuts.

      If you look at the pattern for the kerdi in the niche you can cut plastic like that and install it like that, it’ll just be installed behind the backer in the niche rather than over the face of it, and you’ll use silicone rather than thinset.

  • Matt

    Roger, I was wondering how you go about cutting CBU once it is installed on the wall in order to create the niche. It seem hard enough to cut when it is not installed. Thanks for all your help!

    • Roger

      Hey Matt,

      You can score it (all the way through) with continuous passes, it take a lot of time and patience. I do it with my rotozip and a backer bit. :D

  • Megan

    Roger,

    I am using the traditional method to waterproof my shower walls (with a tub) and have a couple questions:
    1.) I plan to use either Redguard or Kerdi to waterproof my 2 niches (2 rectangles stacked vertically). Should I put a silicone bead between the plastic barrier and the hardiebacker around the area that I cut out for the niches? And then proceed to waterproof the niches as you described. There would be area where the 2 waterproofing methods would overlap slightly – is this ok?
    2.) I purchased your manual on traditional wall waterproofing, but there is one thing I don’t quite understand. On pages 22 & 23 where you have a diagram showing how the plastic barrier overlaps the tub flange, it shows a bead of silicone securing the back of the plastic to the tub flange. But it also shows silicone between the bottom edge of the tile and the horizontal ledge of the tub. It seems like this would create a trap for the water that runs down the plastic. How does the water get to the drain if it can’t run underneath the bottom of the tile?

    Thanks,
    Megan

    • Roger

      Hi Megan,

      1. Yes, silicone between the barrier and the backer. The overlap there is fine.

      2. The silicone bead between the tile and the tub should have weep holes in it to allow water to drain. Like this: Weep holes in tub tile installations

      • Megan

        If using redguard in the niche, is it necessary to use mesh tape on all the inside and outside corners? Or, is it sufficient to simply put silicone along all the corners and just paint the redguard over that with no mesh?

        • Roger

          Mesh would be best on the outside. The inside corners will be fine with silicone and redgard.

  • Jack

    Where did you get your shower head and bar? That’s what I’m looking for..
    Thanks,
    Jack

    • Roger

      Hey Jack,

      The customer purchased it. I don’t have any idea where they got it. I’m fairly certain it was a Moen.

      That’s French for ‘expensive’ :D

  • Len

    High Rodger

    I am attempting my own rip and replace of my existing shower and tub area. Taking plaster out and replacing with Permabase. Before applying mesh tape and thinset, should I silicone caulk corner seams and ceiling seam and wallboard joints? Also will the thinset bond sufficiantly to the silicone? I plan to use Redguard as the membrain waterproofing before tile application. Am I on the right track here? Your response is greatly appreciated.

    Thank You

    Len C.

    • Roger

      Hey Len,

      I silicone the changes of plane, then tape and mud all the seams as well as the corners. The thinset will not bond to the silicone, the tape and mud in the corners ties the face of the board together (movement) while the silicone allows for expansion (swelling).

      • Len

        Rodger,

        Thanks for the quick reply (awsome) Please excuse my ignorance, when you say ” mud all the seams as well as the corners ” are you referring to mud as being joint compound/spackle ? Man am I feeling dumb here, but what do you mean when you say ” changes of plane ” my wife is changing planes in Calif. today, Where will I apply silicone and where do I apply other. The retailer I purchased the permabase from told me to seal all corners, also wall to ceiling and tub base with silicone caulk and then apply mesh tape and then a coat of thinset. Now very confused because if the thinset wont bond to silicone caulk, then I am to believe that the retailer is steering me in the wrong direction. Can you please help this very confused old timer.

        Greatly Appreciated,
        Len C.

        • Roger

          Taping and mudding seams in the shower is done just like regular drywall except you use alkali-resistant mesh tape and thinset rather than paper tape and joint compound. A change of plane is where any flat surface meets another surface at a different angle. The corner of your shower is a change of plane. Your wife changing planes is also a change of plane. :D Fill the changes of plane with silicone, then tape and mud all the seams, including the changes of plane over the silicone.

          The retailer is correct. The silicone allows for expansion when the board or studs swell, to allow a space for the board to swell into without buckling up when meeting the adjoining wall. The tape and mud over the surface ties the walls to one another so that when one moves the other is moved in the same amount, it doesn’t split apart and cause grout to crack.

          Think about two sheets laying right next to each other. If they swell they will expand into each other and the seam will crush together and peak. Filling it with silicone prevents that. Taping and mudding allows them to be tied together so they remain a monolithic surface. If you tape and mud them then pull on one end of one of the boards the other will move with it as you pull.

          • Len C.

            Rodger,Rodger,

            Thank you so very much, you are a Saint in my world, that doesn’t mean the demons aren’t still hanging around.And hope to be rid of them by the time I am done with this project. By that I mean recovering from a stroke, this is great physical therapy. The help you give us common folk with little knoweledge is amazing to me and from what I have read on your site the only compensation you receive, is the self gratification knowing your helping others. And for that sir, I am very grateful.

            Len C.

          • Len

            Hi Rodger

            I am getting close to being ready to hang the permabase, however the tech. info for permabase states that it should be fastened 8″ o.c. The existing studs are 16″o.c. do I need to add stud spacers in between or will It be supported enough with going 16″ o.c.

            Thank You
            Len C

            • Roger

              Hey Len,

              16″ o.c. is just fine. The fasteners should be 8″ o.c. up the wall stud – 8″ apart. That’s what they mean.

              • Len

                Thank you Sir:
                Thats a big relief.I must say, adding 2013 to 1932 is a challange. And who said ya can’t teach an old dog new tricks. Have a happy Easter Rodger.

                Len C. 8)

                • Len

                  Hi Rodger, I have a cast iron tub with a 1/2″ lip, should the permabase come down short of a 1/4 ” above where the lip is tight to the studs or does it come down pass that point and 1/4 ” above the tub shoulder itself.

                  Thank You

                  Len C.

                  • Roger

                    Hey Len,

                    You can do it either way. I prefer to shim the backer out so it fits over the face of the lip and down to 1/4 or 1/8 of the tub shoulder. As long as your waterproofing is tied in correctly, though, it doesn’t really make any difference.

                    • Len

                      :bonk: Thanks Roger

                      I am using the red guard, however I live in a 1932 built home and in keeping our original cast iron tub, due to it is in great shape, however its not level by atleast a 1/2 inch in the far left corner of the back wall, leaving me with the dilema of , if I want to keep the permabase level
                      I will have that widening gap and if I want to close that gap in I lose the level of the permabase. What to do. Leveling the tup is not an option.

                    • Roger

                      Your only option is to level the tub. Or have a crooked tile installation. Can you not lift and shim the far left corner of the tub (assuming it’s low and not high)?

                      You could also start with a full half a tile on the lowest part of the tub and cut the rest of the bottom row to fit. It’ll still be noticeable, but less so than using full tiles at the lowest part.

                    • Len

                      Hi Rodger,

                      In regards to the permabase and but joints, are they treated in the same manner as in drywall and but joints as in having to be feathered out further to achieve a smooth/level surface.

                      Len C.

                    • Roger

                      Hey Len,

                      It’s not difficult to feather them out if you want to, but there’s no real need to. The thickness of the thinset will more than compensate for any irregularities.

                  • Len

                    :dance: Hey Rodger, well because it didnt jump out and say here I am, I jumped right to sending you a sos, however after further review of your site, hey, I found my answer. He who seeks, shall find.

                    Len C.

                    • Len

                      Hi Rodger,

                      In regards to the top outside corner of my tub in which case has a curved appearance, is it common practice to just bring the permabase down to its end of 1/4 ” above the tub flange and just cut the tile to match that curve or do I need to also cut the permabase to match that rounded curve. This is for the side wall that also accompanies the door jam, in which case my trim tile that will but up against the side of the tub is 1 1/2 ” + 1/8 and the remainder is going to be drywall to the door jam 2 1/4 ” I have considered going to the jam with all tile, however for appearance issues it would not match up with the outside edge of the other side wall because thats only 1 1/2 ” in total. Sorry for being so long, just wanted to be as detailed as possible.

                    • Roger

                      Hey Len,

                      Take the permabase down to right above the top of the flange and install the tile down as far as it will go and remain on the same plane (without jutting out).

                    • Len

                      Hi Rodger;

                      Finally ready to tile bath walls, I have noticed that some will apply thinset to substrate and others apply directly to tile backing. My tile are ceramic 10 x 14. Whats your thought on this. Also when tile meet corner to corner ( Im going with 3/16 grout lines) am I leaving a 3/16 space in the corners also for caulking or is that corner space narrower.

                      Thank You
                      Len C. :dance:

                    • Roger

                      Hi Len,

                      Thinset should always be combed onto the surface of the substrate – always. If more thinset is needed that is when it should be put on the backs of the tile.

                      The corner should have a 1/8″ or smaller gap, nothing that large.

  • Jackson

    In your photos in which you discuss the proper placement of Litello, what I notice is that one niches as a thick shelf, and one has a very thin shelf. I like the look of the thin shelf better, but don’t get how to create that, especially if it needs to be m-rocked above and below.

    And for whatever it’s worth, which history indicates is very little, my opinion is that your style of writing is FANTASIC ! THanks for taking the time to provide all that info. My only regret is that due to the way my studs are sloppily piced together, I don’t think I can make my niche be at the gout lines. I dunno, I’ll try. But, you did talk me into having the depth be the width of my bullnose tile. Yes, I admit, I was planning on the 1/2 tile behind the bullnose, becasue that’s the way I saw it “professionally” done in the store display.

    • Roger

      Hiya Jackson!

      Dunno what you mean by thick and thin shelves. The only thing I can guess is that the thick one is the pre-made one with the big-ass shelf in the middle – I hate those. But sometimes the customer has them already bought. The thin one (I’m assuming) is simply one piece of tile flipped upside down with a piece of bullnose on the top of it (tile sandwich – crunchy). That just gets locked into the side pieces of the niche.

  • Frank

    Hi Roger,
    Your step by step directions gave me the courage to try and build a niche (I hope that doesn’t turn out to be a mistake)! One question… I don’t quite understand how the 2×4 framing can be strong enough if it is only tapped into place between the studs and held in pace with drywall screws. Should the 2×4 framing not be attached to the studs? Thanks for sharing your experience.

    • Roger

      Hey Frank,

      You have to pound the 2×4 with a hammer to get it down to the right spot, then you lock it into that spot with screws. These take a considerable amount of force to accomplish when you stack it against the force of a shampoo bottle sitting on a shelf. Unless you’re using your niche as a ladder rung it will be more than sturdy enough to hold whatever you put on it. It does not need to be attached to the studs, but you can if you want to.

  • Bill

    You’re NOT funny…cut the crap! Your ideas are great but you lose your readers with all the non-sense.

    • Roger

      Well thanks for your opinion Bill! Sorry not everyone on the internets is compelled nor forced to conform to your narrow and insular point of view. If you do not approve of my style of writing please feel free to visit one of the other 583 million websites available to you. I’m fairly partial to my little corner of it, so I will not be changing my entire brand in order to satisfy your self-proclaimed edification. Sorry about that.

      Nonsense is one word, by the way. Kudos on the proper apostrophe placement in “you’re”, though.

      Have a great evening! 8)

      • Pete

        I think you are hilarious and informative. I was laughing out loud reading this on the light rail the other day. Thank you very much for writing this! My niche will be better because of it.

        • Roger

          Thanks Pete! I like to randomly giggle at inappropriate times while riding the light rail too! It keeps people away from me… :D

  • Heidi

    I have a question about a quote from this page, “If you are using simply cement backerboard with a moisture barrier you will need to get Kerdi or one of the aforementioned fancy-ass word waterproofing liquids to make the niche waterproof. You cannot place a moisture barrier behind this and have it be waterproof – it simply won’t work.”
    I will be using Durock with a moisture barrier (tar paper behind the Durock). I would like to build the niche the entire width of the shower’s back wall. May I install the tar paper for the niche before I install the Durock? I would like to have a continuous sheet of moisture barrier from ceiling to floor. Then if I use the waterproofing paint or Kerdi in the niche, will I create a mold sandwich?
    Or may I use the tar paper behind the Durock and tape and mud the niche, just like the rest of the walls?
    Thank you!!

    • Roger

      If you are building a niche that large you can just go with the tar paper behind and tape and mud the niche like the rest of the walls.

      • Heidi

        Cool. Thank you!

  • Stoph

    OK Roger,

    Despite all your help, my Niches are an after thought (Early after thought though, still only backer board that I can screw back out if need be), but I cut the holes before I remembered that you had Niche posts :bonk: So I cut the sides flush with my studs and in one case flush with an existing horizontal stud. I am hoping I can just put in the niche backer board the way you describe the tile, (with the sides flush with the walls instead of just behind the walls) and then use mesh tape around the corners, thinset all my seams and mesh tape and be extra generous with the redguard…?

    Having not yet tiled, I am also thinking I could use the bottom of the niche and measure my tile down to the floor. Cutting the bottom row to accomplish your grout lines at the niche? Then I could still modify the height to match a tile and grout line at the top would be done too?

    For the floor we are using river rounded stones, I was planning on running the walls below the floor and having the uneven floor stones butt up against the wall, so if I do have to cut the bottom row, the rough cut will be hidden…?

    That’s it for me, but if someone has that gap behind their bullnose, could they just back butter another tile and put it back in there as well? Now the back would be smaller than the sides instead of behind the sides but they have to grout the lines either way…? They just might have to cut two of the sides of that time to get it to fit…? Just a thought…

    I really appreciate all your posts and rapid responses, my curb does feel solid after all, but I should have taken more time to make it square while it was wet, I have been sanding, sawing and chiseling the curb like crazy trying to get it square, and I thinks its finally close enough to let the thinset make up the difference -?-

    Cheers
    Stoph

    • Roger

      Hey Stoph,

      Yes, you can do that with your niche (redgard, flush with the studs, cut the bottom row and hidden cuts at the bottom to achieve grout lines at the niche).

      And yes, an additional piece of tile can be behind a piece of tile. That, however, insinuates that something went terribly awry during the planning and building phase. :D

  • Nick

    First off .. Great site & great tips !!!
    I have a question regarding niche install. I have no choice to but to do it on an exterior wall, fortunately the wall is 6′ deep so I can still jam enough insullation back there. My question is, if I use your method for the niche, what would I attach the back piece of cementboard to? And also, who do I do this without penetrating the vapour barrior (plastic sheet)? I think that I should most likely create this niche first before hanging the cement board … any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
    Nick from Canada :)

    • Roger

      Hi Nick,

      Yes, create the niche first then silicone your barrier around the perimeter of the niche. Since you have six inches you can add some ‘mini-studs’ along the back of the wall cavity. Get some 2 x 2’s or similar and cut them a bit longer than your niche is high and attach them between the stud where your niche is (vertically). Then you can cut a piece of cement board and screw it right to those mini-studs.

  • Deidre

    Hello Elf
    Can I put a shelf like yours in my shower ‘after the fact”? I have an existing shower and I want to add two shelves (his and hers) and a corner shower seat.
    They will be placed on the wall opposite the plumbing.
    Thanks for your expertise.
    Deidre

    • Roger

      Hello Deidre,

      Yes, you can. Cut two channels out of the backside of your formed shelves (put them all together and let them cure first) big enough to fit half a penny into. Do that on each side of the shelves which fit against the wall then use epoxy to install the pennies into those small channels. Then scrape grout out of your shower walls such that the other half of the pennies will fit into there.

      Grab your epoxy, fill the channels in the wall (where the grout was) then stick your shelves up there. The pennies anchor your shelves into the wall. Then after it cures just silicone around the shelf.

      • Deidre

        Thank you for your answer.
        Would I be able to build a niche? I would really like to have a his and hers niche if possible in an already tiled shower and it would be opposite the plumbing wall. The tile is a glossy light taupe colored tile.
        Thanks again for your expertise.
        Deidre

        • Roger

          A niche would be an entirely different animal, and extremely difficult to waterproof correctly without removing a significant amount of tile.

  • Peter

    Hi Roger,

    Very helpful explanation of niche construction!

    I am using KerdiBoard to waterproof my shower… Can I also use it to line the niche walls? Screw it in place, then apply Kerdi membrane to all the seems?

    Also, I just received my tile 10 days ago, and my supplier told me to use a modified thinset to install the tile, but lo and behold, the folks at Kerdi say to use only unmodified thinset over their product… What to do?

    Thanks in advance for any help you can give me!

    Cheers,
    Peter

    • Roger

      Yes you can. You can also construct it with just kerdi board and kerdi fix without the kerdi-band membrane.

      You can use modified over kerdi board if you want, but it will void your warranty from schluter. It will work fine, though. Good unmodifieds work just fine as well. Completely up to you.

  • Peter

    Hi Roger,

    I am designing a niche for my alcove 30″x60″ shower, to go in the end wall opposite the plumbing fixtures wall. My tiles are 10″ x 24″, and will be installed vertically, in a brick pattern (each tile column offset 50% from its neighbouring column).

    I am planning a simple design in which the same tile is used throughout the walls/niche. Can I use standard tile rather than bullnose tile to tile the 4 side walls of the niche? If so, how would I go about this? Do I bevel the edges so that these side wall pieces fit together like a picture frame with the field tiles? Or do I expose the square edge of the tile? Or is there some other technique you’d recommend?

    Cheers,
    Peter

    • Roger

      Hey Peter,

      You can use the regular field tile cut to size if you want to. You can also miter or not miter the corners, you can butt them together (with a 1/16″ gap) flatly if you want. You can expose the square edge, use a tile edge trim, or bullnose the actual tile, whichever your patience and budget will allow. The bullnose is normally used in order to not have the edge exposed, but it can be, it won’t hurt anything.

      • Peter

        Thank you Roger! Very helpful input!

        Peter

  • Rob

    Roger,

    To make sure I have the steps right for the niche (hydroban liquid waterproofing method):

    1. Install all CBU (tape and mud seams, caulk corners, etc.)

    2. Paint Hydroban on pan and all walls

    3. Install tile up to a point somewhat close to the bottom of where the niche will go

    4. Cut out exact size hole for niche

    5. Install top and bottom 2×4 supports for niche

    6. Install 1/2″ CBU on sides, top, bottom, and back of niche

    7. Caulk corners

    8. Paint Hydroban on niche

    9. Install tile

    10. Drink beer

    Is this right? If so, my question is on steps 2 and 8. There will be some overlap of Hydroban on the already painted walls from the newly painted niche, correct? Kind of like the overlap you show with the Kerdi, except it is “paint,” not fabric?

    Thanks again for the help.

    Rob

    • Roger

      Hey Rob,

      That’s correct. You can also tape and mud all the corners rather than using silicone if you choose. That’s simply my method. Yes, there will be overlap of the layers – no problem.

      Do number 10 seven or eight times. :D

  • AC

    Dear Mr Elf,
    So I am almost done remodeling a bath, with HUGE thanks for all your help. I uploaded a few pics on the readers projects link.
    Its come along reasonably well – given that its my first time tiling. Did make an error that you specifically warned against on this page :bonk: – miscalculated the depth of the tile niche (vs the width of the bullnose) so I am now left with a 3/8th – 1/2″ gap between the bullnose on the wall of the niche and the back of the niche. ( I uploaded a pic showing this too)
    Whats the best thing I can use to fill that gap, as I repent the mistake ? I used Spectralock epoxy grout for the tile – could I just use that ? or 100% silicone caulk ?
    thanks a bunch
    AC

    • Roger

      Yup, looks like crap, huh? :D I hate that. I guess you could fill it with the spectralock, that much silicone is really gonna look like crap. Another option, if you do have a full 3/8″ gap, is to find a glass mosaic with 3/8″ pieces. It’s a fairly common size for smaller mosaics. Install a row of those behind the bullnose and tell people you planned a really cool accent piece. :D