A common misconception about tile and grout is that grout will somehow assist in stabilizing a tile installation. It does not. Unless you use epoxy grout it will add no significant structural elements at all.
So why should I use grout?
Grout is, structurally speaking typing, simply there to fill the spaces between tiles. That is an oversimplification, but it describes the grout’s function. More to the point, it is there to keep other things out of that space. Without grout the possibility of dirt, grime and all sorts of unruly, unwanted things may collect in the spaces between tiles. This may lead to not only unhealthy conditions, but also the chance of damaging your tile while trying to remove those things.
Does epoxy grout help stabilize tile?
If you’ve read any of my other posts regarding grout you have more than likely seen me state that epoxy is different. This subject is no exception.
Epoxy grout will actually add to the stability of your tile installation – to an extent. Epoxy will stabilize only the area between the tiles – the grout lines. It does not stabilize your tile enough to replace proper installation methods. This is not what epoxy grout is intended for.
A couple of reasons for using epoxy grout include the durability, ease of cleaning, and its ability to withstand staining. It is not intended as a product to make a sub-par installation correct.
How does epoxy help?
To the extent that it does stabilize your tile, it will only do so in the direction of the plane. If you think about tile on a floor epoxy grout will not (to any significant amount) stabilize your tile up and down. If you have a corner of your tile that does not have support beneath it, the tile will still crack eventually. It will take a bit longer because of the epoxy, but it will still crack.
If you have two tiles (not installed on anything) that are held together by epoxy grout between them you can grab each end and bust them over your knee like you would bust a baseball bat (if you were insane) and they would break apart. You can not pull them away from each other and pull them apart – ever. That is the direction of the plane.
So although epoxy grout does add some stabilizing features to your tile installation it should not be used in that capacity.
Grout is an integral part of a correct tile installation but not in a structural way. As you plan your installation keep that in mind and treat your grout simply as an aesthetic part of your overall project. It will not assist in stabilizing any part of your tile. You should only be concerned about the color.
I had a feeling. Thanks Roger.
It sure looks nice though,…….. but don’t step on them!!!
Thanks,
Dan H
Hello,
I had an issue with using Simpleset premix thinset (Mastic from what I am understanding) and the tiles not bonding. I am using a 6 inch porcelain tile and also a glass tile border for an inlay and 8 x 12 ceramic around it. This is on a cement slab in an entry/mudroom. I did read the bucket and it described my purposes as it’s intended use! I live in New England and it has been getting pretty cold lately, was not sure if this would add to my issues with it setting.
I have no problem with the ceramic bonding but the porcelain and the glass tiles have not firmly set and it has been 5 full days and some change.
I am reading alot of reviews of the simpleset product and they are not inspiring my confidence. It sounds like I might have to pull it up and use a “real” thinset.
Can you give me your opinion? Should I let the tiles try to dry for a longer period? Should I just pull them up now, clean it and redo it?
Is there any hope that I can just wait and grout it?
What are you thinking amigo?
Thanks in advance,
Dan H
I did not want to grout until I had a better idea of what to do
Also left you a PIC titled Dan H 11-6-12 in the readers projects.
Thanks!
Hey Dan,
Putting porcelain or glass, both of which are almost impervious, is just like putting the lid back on the bucket of mastic – it’s never gonna cure. You need to remove it and install with real thinset. But you already knew that.
Well, I have been absent for a couple of weeks from Mr. Elf’s website here. I love this little tile site. It’s great to have a site that actually has useful information to help consumers from folks who actually use these materials on a daily basis and understand them vs. the guys who sell us these products.
I wanted to contribute to this grout episode. I have also spent many of my years with a pair of knee pads strapped to my legs (15 to be closer to exact). However, the past ten years I have spent in the restoration side of this trade. I still install, but not as often as I fix, repair, demo, clean and seal, and renovate hard surfaces.
The thing is, grout does actually hold a bond to the tiles. However, more so as Mr. Tile Elf (also known as Roger) put it, grout doesn’t hold the tile the surface as strong as the thinsets that he recommends. But, if you ever tear out a wall, you will notice (if you pull it off in a big sheet) that the grout does actually “bond” the tiles together.
More important, if you were to do a repair without first removing the grout, and you strike the middle of the tile with a hammer, look out because the rest of your day just became an event, you made a career out of a simple fix, and I hope you have more tile at hand. Chances are, due to the grout “holding hands” with the tile (for lack of my better terms) the tile that you smash will more than likely transfer the force from the blow onto other tiles (and the grout inbetween) and crack those tiles as well. This is because the grout has formed a bond with the tile (making the entire project ‘stuck’ together).
In fact, if you are in a bind, you can even use grout to stick a tile (I’ve had to do it a time or two). I have even used straight Semco, a product that looks much like mastic, but it is for applying over cracks. What Roger is saying, is that by grouting your project, it is not magically industructable now.
When doing a repair, you MUST remove ALL of the grout, ALL the way down to the surface that the tile is stuck to; if you want to ensure that you do not break any other tiles and have to make a now larger repair. Also keep in mind that removing grout to do a repair should always be done by hand with a grout saw for sanded grout, and a utility knife for unsanded. A scoring knife (mainly used for scoring backerboards, such as Hardibacker, for instance) is a handi tool to keep in your grout removal tool bucket as well. (Using power tools to remove grout causes dust (and lots of it) in a home, and also GREATLY increases the chances of damaging other tiles). Also keep in mind that ALL concrete products are cancer causing agenents: they are very bad to breath in and very bad to keep on your skin.
Note: if you are one of these people who insist using a grinder or Dremel type tool to remove grout, you can have some one use a sponge or bug sprayer, etc. To apply water to the dust. Now you just have to decide if you want to clean up mud, or dust, I prefere the mud if I have to chose. Typically, unless an area is huge, guys who use power tools to remove grout are amatuers.
Anyway, I hope this helps add to Mr. Tile Elf’s post on what grout does to the bonding of tiles. I myself, like Roger, love to hand down information that I have learned over the years, for free.
-Jason Huggett (the Tile Mechanic)
“If you love your floor, you gotta Huggett!
I need some help. We had grout that was looking pretty dingy, so I scraped down the old grout and re-grouted the spaces. Now we have grout that crumbles and lifts in spots. I am wondering if I removed too much grout and now there is movement in the floor?? We never had a problem with the grout before I tried to make it look brighter – we have had the bathroom for 8 years. Is there anything I can do to salvage the floor without having to pull up tiles?
Thank you for your help,
Lesley
Hi Lesley,
The grout has nothing at all to do with how well the tile is bonded, or whether it moves or not. The problem is that your new grout hasn’t bonded well to the old. If the old grout has been there long enough it may never bond well. Your best option is to remove all the grout down to 2/3 the depth of the tile and regrout. The new grout will bond to the sides of the tile, not the grout beneath it, so you don’t need to worry about that.
I would like to know if regular grout colorant can be mixed w/ epoxy colorant. I’m trying to customize color to match existing color of outdoor paver grout. I bought epoxy colorant because of durability, but the color isn’t dark enough, and I have some other colorant that will work if mixed w/ epoxy colorant. Thanks for your expert advice!
Hi Sam,
Nope. You can mix epoxy with epoxy or regular with regular, but you never want to mix anything else with epoxy – ever. It’s a very distinct chemical process, tossing foreign chemicals into the mix rarely ends well.
What is the best to put under floor tile? Both kitchen and bathroom… I’m using Kerdie fix in the shower with the premix adhesive it says in the instructions…
Hi Desirae,
Sorry for the delay – you seemed to have been lost in the mix there somewhere. Not too sure what you have going on there. Any premix adhesive should NOT be used in a shower to bond tile to the substrate. Kerdi fix is used to adhere and seal the kerdi membrane – not to bond tile. If that’s what you have going on you need to not do that.
Under both floor tile as well as wall tile the best option is powdered thinset you mix with water. Not too sure which instructions you may be referring to? A bit more clarification and specifics will help me help you out.
Hi. I don’t think this question has been asked before, so forgive me if it has. This is a new problem for me. It is obvious that a few of my 18×18 tiles were not layed properly as there is a hollow sound when knocking on it and the grout continues to crack. My question is this: Is there a product that I can inject under the tile to stabilize it? Thanks so much.
judy
Hi Judymc,
If the hollow areas are around the edges (it doesn’t sound like they are) then you can inject thinset into the grout lines to solidify them. If the hollow areas are toward the center of the tile then no – there isn’t. The best thing to do would be to remove those tiles and reinstall them properly.
Rodger,
I had a contractor come in and put tile in my washroom. It has an old hardwood floor(1930s). He laid the tile over the hardwood floor. First he put down a layer of membrane, then mastic, and finally the tile. The hardwood floor creaked before, that was why the contractor used membrane and mastic. Now we have a problem with the grout cracking. The floor looks good, the only problem we have is grout cracks show up daily. We were thinking of using epoxy grout to fix this problem. What do you think?
Thanks!
Hi Bob,
I think the epoxy won’t last either. Cracked grout is indicative of movement in your tile installation. I’m guessing the grout is mostly cracking along the traffic path – correct? That means that as you walk on it the floor beneath the tile is moving (it creaks – that means it moves) which, in turn, is causing your tile to move ever so slightly.
Regular grout does not compensate for that movement – epoxy grout DEFINITELY does not compensate for that movement – it has NO flexibility. You may be able to replace it with a urethane grout, that might work, it’s a bit flexible. But the bottom line is whatever you use may not last long-term – your problem is the substrate was not built and reinforced properly. Grout of any type is not going to compensate for that long-term.
That is the weird part. The biggest cracks are along the edge of the room. The main traffic areas are ok now. I haven’t seen too many in the traffic areas .It takes a few days for the cracks to show up. My contractor is very dedicated to fixing the problem. First he tried to grout over the cracked grout. It helped a little.
What do you think we should do? Should we have the contractor rip up the floor and redo it? I’m going to live in the house for the next 4-8 years. I don’t want to see a problem in that time. Do you think the urethane grout will last that long. I’m also pretty certain there isn’t anything under the hardwood floor, just the floor beams.
Thank you, you’ve been a ton of help.
The urethane grout would be the easiest – yes, it should last. That, of course, depends on the severity of the underlying problem. I simply don’t know. I do know that is not a proper substrate for a tile installation. It should last, it may not. The proper and only guaranteed way, of course, is to remove it and build a proper substrate for the installation.
Hi Roger, love your quirky site! I have a grout repair question. In our shower stall, the previous owner had a repair made in which the center 2 ft sq of tile surrounding drain were removed and replaced (presumably after drain repair as well). We recently noticed leakage from the surrounding plywood subfloor around the drain pipe in basement…drips only, but the plywood is wet. So I investigate to find that the grout of the repaired/replaced tile has receded (has lost volume/receded) and exposed are numerous air holes. Maybe from a poor mixture? At any rate I see no structural problem (broken waste pipe, etc), only these air holes which are probably channeling water around the pipe. My question is, should I clean this all out and re-grout, or inject the holes with epoxy, and then regrout? Or something different?
thanks so Much!!!
Mike
Hi Mike,
Unfortunately something different. Grout is not waterproof – whether it has holes in it or not has nothing to do with water getting through to your substrate. That is indicative of a failed liner to drain transition. The liner is clamped into the drain and if not properly sealed water gets through – right around the drain pipe. It sounds like that area needs to be removed again and the leak repaired. At the very least. If the liner was not compromised during the first ‘fix’ it may be a simple matter of reclamping it and replacing everything around the drain. If they screwed up the liner there the entire floor will need to be replaced.
Sorry to be a buzz-kill.
Roger,
Hmmm…ok. Rats. I appreciate the honesty, so no need to apologize. So you are suggesting that the liner basically remains wetted througout its life? Just trying to wrap my brain around something other than a pole
Anyway, I cleaned it out, epoxied, re-grouted, and sealed. Didn’t take very long, so when I see fresh water, i won’t feel too bad
OK, then. Liner has failed. at the clamp, probably. The tile replacement around the drain looks very much like this repair was tried already; also stained wood underneath supports this.
So, what will I find? I chip up the tile (no big deal), and then chip mud away from drain, without damaging the liner? How do I go about this? How might I tell if the “clamp” is the problem in the first place, rather than a failed liner?
I should say that we have wanted to tear this whole bathroom out and reconfigure….maybe we should think more seriously about it now!
Thanks so much Roger!!
A shower pan built with a traditional pan liner and used every day will remain wet throughout it’s life.
I’m 90% sure, even from here, that what you’ll find is either an improperly clamped liner or a liner that was damaged in some fashion when the first repair was attempted. And no pre-slope.
The only way to determine the cause is to rip everything out around the drain.
If you’re looking for a reason to remodel the whole bathroom – this one’s perfect!
Roger,
Thanks again for your time and insight…
You were right….I chased the leak(s) to a different part of the flooring with the epoxy/re-grout fantasy fix. Seeing that I am not in the position to remodel the bathroom till winter, my options are:
1) Don’t use the shower (uugghh)
2) Tear out and rebuild floor/liner/clamp, only to tear it up again at remodel (shower is getting enlarged, and put in a different spot for remodel (uugghh)
3) OK, this may be another fantasy fix, but hear me out…can I bust out clamp and tailpiece, and re-mud with a cheap, plastic, pre-sloped liner embedded in thinset right on top of tile? This only has to be a 6-8 month fix. What I don’t know is if I can get away with a zero-clearance on the clamp…that is, the clamp would effectively be right at the surface. Does this make any sense?
Thanks again for your clever thoughts!
best,
Mike
Hey Mike,
Ideally – don’t use the shower. Secondly, tear it out and rebuild. The feasibility of your fixes are actually in the correct order.
You could raise the drain to attach to a pre-formed plastic (acrylic) base sitting on top of the existing tile. However! A problem you may run into is that water that gets behind the wall tile will still run down the wall, but it will run into the existing floor liner – which will, at that point, be hooked to nothing but an open hole around your drain pipe. It would still be better than continuing to use it as is, though. You will at least get 98% of the water into the drain.
Roger,
I have one last fantasy fix to lighten your day
Fiberglass. Yep, 2 layers of crossed-lain fiberglass cloth, embedded in resin, simply draped into the drain. I can seal it 2 in. or so high along the wall. Biggest problem I see is ensuring a proper bond between resin and tile (chem etch maybe first?).
OK, let the giggles begin!
thanks,
Mike
Hey Mike,
Fiberglass shower pans are actually an approved method (didn’t see that coming, didja?). It will work. The tile would need to be set to it with epoxy (PITA) and the problem I see with it is tying in the wall waterproofing with the fiberglass pan over the existing tile.
Roger,
I think I wasn’t clear enough…
My idea is to wrap the current tile in actual fiberglass cloth, embedded in resin. Two layers, cross lain, draped into the drain, thus making the edge problem go away. Remember, this only needs to be a 6 – month fix.
thanks so much for insightful comments!
Mike
It may work for ~6 months. Then again – it may not. I honestly don’t know. I’m a lot of help, huh?
Hi Roger,
I’ve been lurking on your site for a while now. LOVE it! Here’s my question:
I laid mosaics in the bathroom and they are not sticking to the flex bond. I have not grouted yet. There is 1/4″ hardibacker thinsetted to a super solid plywood sub, then flex bond thinset on the hardibacker, then the tile. I’ve been working in the bathroom, stepping on the tiles and some of them are coming loose. I’m hoping I can grout, and they will stick, but I’m afraid you going to tell me to tear up all of the tiles. As to why they didn’t stick, was my thinset too dry? Thanks for your input.
Hey Bill,
It sounds like you may not have gotten full coverage under your mosaics. You’ll get better coverage if you comb out the thinset then flip your trowel over to the flat side and knock down the ridges. Then you’ll be laying them into a flat bed of thinset. Use your grout float to pound them down into the thinset a bit to make full contact. Your thinset very well could have been too dry – that will definitely cause that.
You should take them up – if ‘some’ of them are coming up now – how many are gonna come up later?
Thanks for your input. Really smart sounding advice. I’ve started taking up some of them. Scraping the combs of thinset is ridiculously difficult. I’ve gotten myself into a real mess here. I don’t even know how I’d start over if I were so inclined. I’ll keep at it.
Once again, thank you.
So, I just realized that some thinset squished up in between a few of my tiles and cured there. How much of that do I need to scrape down before grouting??
Hi Charles,
You want to go down to at least 2/3 the depth of the tile.
Are you familiar with a product called Grout Boost. You add this to your grout instead of water and it’s supposed to seal it so you don’t have to apply a sealer over your grout. It’s about $80 a gallon and a tile store I went to put this in my estimate of ‘things I needed for the job.’ What is your experience and/or recommendation for such a product?
Is it world of tile?
I can’t stand the stuff, it makes my grout feel weird. That, however, is mostly a personal thing. I have been using the same, or similar, grout for almost 20 years, when something changes the way it works (how workable it is, how it cleans up, etc.) I don’t like it. That’s all it is. The pros that do use it swear by it, and it works. It does what it says it does. But you don’t ‘need’ it, don’t let them tell you that.
Yep! World of Tile! Their mortar and everything else put my estimate at $800 just for the tile. Tile is the cheap part, we’re getting everything else at HD/Lowe’s and saving hundreds of dollars.
I tiled my sons 30 foot hallway and it seems that there are 4 tiles that keep coming loose and I am not sure why. I put down backer board, mixed the thinset and laid the tile. The house has other tiled floors which are fine, it is just the hallway. The hallway is level so I’m not sure why the tiles keep coming up. I have taken them off, cleaned the floor and put new ones down, but some of them are still popping up. I don’t believe the house is settling, since no other floors are doing this. Any ideas?
Hi Tina,
Do you have thinset UNDER the backerboard as well?
No, I didn’t use thinset under the backboard. The house is only 8 years old. I have only recently heard about using thinset under the backboard. Must I take out the tile and cut out that area of backboard and then thinset it?
I think that may be the problem. If there is not thinset beneath your backer it can create unsupported areas of your substrate where the backer is not fully supported and there may be a hollow area. You can try to thinset under that area and it will likely stop cracking there. Don’t be surprised if it begins cracking in a different area down the road, though.
Heavily travelled areas such as hallways and in front of counters tend to move the substrate more than other areas. The constant press and release of weight on those areas may eventually work loose fasteners or cause areas to sag. If not fully supported it may cause movement and, as you’ve seen, crack grout.
Funny, I have never had this happen before. I’ve tiled a couple of hallways and a bathroom without ever putting thinset beneath the backer board. Is this due to poor construction in a newer home?
Technically it’s due to specific point-load distribution in a given area. It may or may not happen, can’t guarantee failure, we can only guarantee success.
This is why standards call for a double-layer, 1 1/4″ minimum plywood substrate beneath your backer beneath a tile installation. Deflection ratio standards for residential structures normally do not meet minimum requirements for a successful tile installation. In short they are constructed to support vinyl or carpet.
Thanks so much for you advice!
Hello Roger,
I am concerned that I may have mixed my grout (unsanded, cementious) to thin. My grout only comes in a 10lb bags and I only needed a fourth of it. I did my best to guestimate that amount of powder and added it to the recomended amound of water. Can you describe the appropriate consistency? Mine was slightly less firm than peanut butter. Where the porcelan 18×18 tiles are perfectly even, the grout does not quite come to the top of the tiles. My grout lines are 1/16 in most, slightly more in a few. There is also some lippage in a few spots. (My husband insisted that once tiles are down, they can’t be taken back up…..grrr!) In these areas the grout appears to not be curing as quickly (looks darker). Fortunately, the grout is almost identical to the tile color. This is our first trial effort, a laundry room before doing the MBR floor only, I think. I grouted 22 hours ago. Can or should I re-grout it, and what is my time window?
I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your blog! So much very useful information. Thank you!
Cheers!
Colleen
Hi Colleen,
Grout should be about the consistency of peanut butter – so yours may have been a bit thin, which will cause it to shrink some. You should be able to go over it again with some unsanded to level it out, just make sure to dampen the existing grout first. The different color areas could be due to light and shadow because of lippage.
Hi Roger, I value your opinion, so I want to ask you: how do you feel about 1/16th spacing on large format glazed porcelain tiles with either a stacked or 1/3 running bond? I’ve had different opinions- some say they could recommend it with epoxy grout no problem, while some say that it will look and be terrible with 1/16 epoxy (lippage, bridges) and will only do 1/8 lines with regular grout plus epoxy-acrylic grout sealer for durability. I know that some really stick to their guns with the 1/16th, but if it will not look straight, I don’t want to do it. What are your thoughts?
Hey Maleka,
It’s fine so long as the tile will allow it. ALL large format tile is cupped to an extent. The good ones have a minimum of cupping and are more forgiving with smaller grout lines. That is one reasons the standards have been changed to recommend a 1/3 running bond rather than 1/2 on large format (any side over 15″) tiles. Epoxy grout, or any other type of grout, has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a certain size should be used, it’s dependent upon the particular tile. If they’re fairly flat you can get away with 1/16″ on a 1/3 running bond. It’s all due to the amount of lippage you deem acceptable. Once installed you can use any type of grout you want. The grout line size has nothing to do with the durability of the grout in most cases. Sealer only makes grout stain-proof, that’s all it does.
Thanks, Roger. In your opinion, though, have you seen epoxy grout fail over the course of several years? The guy pushing regular sanded + grout sealer said he’d seen lots of Spectralock failures, that it’s overrated, etc.. Says his will outlast Spectralock by decades. Just wanted your opinion since I was set to go with Spectrlock until I heard this. He implied that his grout sealer contained a bit of epoxy but was water-based and thus protected it from stains and sealed it more effectively. Have you seen any bath work with epoxy grout that hasn’t lasted? Thanks for your help.
I think I’ll go with 1/3 or stacked bond!
Hey Maleka,
Forgive my bluntness, but…
He’s full of shit.
I have never, ever seen epoxy grout fail. What I have seen is epoxy grout used in incorrect applications such as a cast-glass installation, however, in situations like that the tile gives out before the grout. In other words, being that movement accommodation was not factored into the installation the expansion in the substrate cause the glass to break and crack. I’ve also seen that with certain ceramics that implicitly state NOT to use epoxy. I have also attempted to remove part of a shower floor when the homeowner decided to order a different vanity and the shower floor was too small. When I went to chip the tile out (grouted with spectralock) the tile busted before the grout even pulled away from the side. It’s durable. Very, very durable.
AND: whatever grout additive he plans on using I can nearly guarantee you it doesn’t have ‘epoxy’ in it. They do have polymers and latex’s in them, but epoxy is a two-part product which gets solid once the parts are mixed. If his grout additive indeed had epoxy in it, well, that would be a very chunky product.
Another person attempting to push a product by down-talking another one. That really, really pisses me off.
You can use whichever you like, of course, but I will tell you the epoxy is much more durable than any cementitious grout mixed with an additive. It will not fail.
Roger, I think he said the epoxy was in the grout sealer, not the grout itself. Maybe something like Aquamix’s grout colorant sealer with epoxy (although he would not tell me the brand name– which should make me suspicious, anyway. What harm is it to come out and tell me?).
In any case, you confirmed what I was feeling and reading online. At the very least, he’s so sold on his method that he’s not well-informed about other options. Either way, I will go with someone else and do the Spectralock. Thank you SO much for your confirmation about epoxy’s durability!
Epoxy grout fails quite often when used in certain applications with enzymatic soaps. Most other manufacturers caution against this. Warranties are generally voided when this occurs, leaving the owners and contractors with no recourse. National chain businesses such as restaurants are shying away from it because of this, the cost and the possible health concerns of the installers. Read the M.S.D.S. of the chemicals in the epoxy formulas you are using. You may be surprised by the use of Bisphenol A, benzene, Formaldehyde or other potentially toxic chemical compounds or derivatives. Some epoxy formulas are considered solvents- capable of causing severe heath problems. Most epoxies are readily absorbed through the skin and latex gloves may offer little or no protection. A respirator and protective clothing, designed to protect against solvents should also be used, just as painters who paint with epoxy use. Refer to OSHA, the Center for Construction Research and Training, ASTDR and NIOH for further advice.
All absolutely correct Steve. Although most of the failures you reference are due to enzymes in soaps used in commercial cleaning applications – restaurants and such. Exactly why SpectraLock 2000 IG is manufactured.
I am curious, however, what exactly this has to do with anything located in the particular thread above? The one in which you’ve posted this? While she does state that her contractor told her that he’s ‘seen a lot of spectralock failures’ it is my experience that either he has no idea what spectralock is, he’s afraid to use anything epoxy, or he has no idea what he’s doing because this is, in fact, a residential application.
Comparing apples to oranges (residential to commercial) does not validate an inaccurate statement. Any product at all can fail if improper cleaning materials or cleaners are used on them.
Relevant information on epoxy grout failures — http://ntca-tada.com/?p=12
From the National Tile Contractors Association Journal
Yes, and doesn’t change anything I’ve stated with your last comment.
I am an avid rock picker and on a recent trip to Michigan picked up lots of rocks. My husband says I have to do something with them, so I decided I would make a bird bath. The rocks are all different sizes, and incredibly porous so spreading grout between them would be a nightmare. So the questions are can I spread the grout and then push the stones in, which grout should I use, and will it hold up to being constantly wet?
Hey Jocelyn,
I’m an avid square polished rock installation specialist!
Laticrete has what they call the ‘one-step method’ which is normally used for paper-faced glass mosaics. It can, however, be used with nearly any type of stone. Essentially you add laticrete grout (whichever color you’d like) to 254 platinum thinset (white) and set the tile or rocks with that. It’s setting and grouting in one. You can read about it on Henry’s blog here: http://laticrete.blogspot.com/2009/06/one-step-method-install-grout-glass.html That has pictures of the method and a link to a pdf with specific instructions. Should work well.
do you need to seal granite tile and if so should you seal it before you grout ?
Hey Charlie,
Technically you don’t ‘need’ to seal anything. Sealing assists with stain-resistance so if your granite is in a high traffic area such as an entryway or on a kitchen countertop, anywhere that is prone to staining then yes, sealing it will help you keep it clean. Granite is one of the few stones that don’t need to be sealed every time. It’s very dense and therefore very resistant to staining anyway. It’s entirely up to you whether to seal it or not.
If you are using regular cementitious grout then seal it after you grout. If you’re using epoxy or a urathane-based grout then seal it before you grout.
Just about to install epoxy grout on my recently self-installed porcelain 13×13 kitchen floor.
I already bought CEG-Lite. Yikes! I’m a-feared ’cause it isn’t spectralok. Tell me everything will be ok. And mean it.
Hey Anne,
Everything is gonna be okay. And I mean it.
CEG-lite is urethane-based. That simply means it’s a different type of grout than spectralock. I’ve heard it’s good stuff – I haven’t used it. You do need to allow a LOT of time for this stuff to cure – like 7 – 10 days! Also, as you install it stir the grout every time you pull it out of the bucket. And only grout about four square feet at a time and then wash it. It’s a whole different animal, nothing wrong with it at all, though.
You are too awesome for getting back to me that fast! My husband wimped out on me and decided to use unsanded grout (1/16″ uh – what are they called – spaces between the tiles) instead. Know what put him over the edge? We don’t have an epoxy float. Men. Gotta love ’em.
Hey Anne,
They’re called grout lines.
Or, in your husband’s case, the origin of one of the most *ahem* creative excuses I’ve ever heard in my life! 
I have laid down ceramic tile with adhesive and have not grouted for the past 4 days because tiles keep coming loose. I have resealed them and they are still not dry…Not all pieces just a few here and there. Should I go ahead and grout, or get another type of adhesive?
Hi ‘T’,
Do not grout that tile – it’s not gonna last. What type of ‘adhesive’ did you use? If it’s the pre-mixed stuff in the bucket it never will fully cure – it’s the wrong stuff. You need powdered thinset sold in a bag which you mix with water. I’m also unsure about what you mean when you say you ‘sealed’ or ‘resealed’ them – why are you doing that?
Hey Roger,
Bob
I am at the point where i am ready to grout my 18″x18″ marble tile. I have done the entire shower, a 32″ wainscot on all walls & the floor. I was wondering about the epoxy grout. Would it be beneficial to use it, & if so, is there any disadvantages to using it & is there any tricks to using it? Also is it an additive or do you buy it already as epoxy grout? Thanks again for all your help.
Hey Bob,
Epoxy is beneficial in many ways – the largest being the stain-resistance and ease of cleaning. About the only disadvantage is that it is a bit difficult to install – you’re on a time limit. Spectralock is the easiest to work with, but even with that you have 80 minutes before it sets up too much. If you use epoxy pay very close attention to the instructions and time limits – follow them. Epoxy is normally a two or three part product – once you mix it up it activates the grout – that’s when your time starts. All of the parts are included when you buy it.
not to change the subject but:
When you are doing a layout with “en pointe” with the tiles all at a 45 degree angle. Let’s say you are going to do three rows of full 4″ tiles , with two rows between them and then cut half tiles top and bottom to fill it all in. The tiles are 6″ on the diagonal, so the whole shebang is about 18″ top to bottom, and it goes side to side as long as the wall. now for the question: Suppose you were going to do a small shower stall, two side walls and the back this way. How would you lay it out so it was 1. easiest to install 2. looked good. easy to install is avoiding little tiny pieces of diamonds or triangles at the corners. Looking good is having some symmetry on the back wall, and some thing besides randomness at the corners.
Hey Geoff,
I start by making my center line on the back wall and measuring from there to the corner. If your tile is indeed exactly 6″ point to point and your center line is 29 1/4″ from the corner then start with a full tile centered on your center line. This will give you a piece a bit under a full half at each corner and eliminate any small pieces. Just figure out which spot gives you the bigger piece at the corner – a tile centered on the center line or butted against the center line. This will also allow you to wrap the design around the corner (match grout lines in the pattern) without any little pieces on the side corners. It also makes the walls symmetrical.
Sounds like you know your stuff, thanks for the great tips!
Good article, very helpful!
Thank you Andrew.
Dan,
You are absolutely correct! Grout can stick tiles together. If you are removing 6 or 7 tiles stuck together by grout I can guarantee one of three things:
1) It is epoxy grout. or
2) The tile was installed and grouted prior to 1983 when lime was still mixed into the cementious grout. or
3) The contractor that installed the grout used the “old school” style of mixing your own grout using portland cement as a base.
These things do not make your tile more stable – they simply make them stick to one another using grout.
If your tile sounds hollow beneath it means there is not full coverage of your setting material and, in turn, not full support. It may very well last for years – as long as you do not step on the unsupported area between two supported areas. Just because something was not installed correctly and lasted for years does not mean people should take a chance doing it that way.
People spend large sums of money on products to re-tile their homes – I don’t want them wasting that money then improperly installing it. That is the entire reason for my site. Why take a chance that it may last for years when you can properly install it and guarantee that it will?
Here’s a quick example using your scenario above – I can take two pieces of paper and glue one end to another. When I pick one up – the other comes with it. The glue added absolutely no stability to the pieces of paper but it did stick them to one another. Take two pencils and lay them apart about a foot. Now place the paper on top of them. The center of the paper still bows down and touches the table, yes? Do the same with a tile then step repeatedly in the center of the tile – it won’t last because it is not fully supported. That’s what I mean by adding stability to a tile.
Roger,
You say that grout adds no support to the structural integrity of a tile installation. I think it does add some stability. Look at this example. I have removed many tile floors that were installed incorrectly, in this case having no bond to the substrate. The tiled floors can last years and have a hollow sound. When you remove the tile, you can remove large areas of maybe 6 or 7 tiles stuck together by only grout. This is the only thing that has kept this floor together for years.