This is a question I get asked from time to time. The short answer is no, you should not. Although grout does not add to the stability of the tile installation (unless it is epoxy grout), you still need to grout it.
Why you need grout
A lot of natural stones, namely granites and marbles, are manufactured to be consistently sized. For the most part all the tiles are identical. This makes a lot of people want to install them without grout lines. Although in some people’s opinion butting the tiles against one another looks better than having even the smallest grout lines, it is not a recommended installation procedure.
Even if all the tiles look like they are the same size I can nearly guarantee they are not. Unless they are “rectified” they will differ, even if only a tiny amount, from tile to tile. Attempting to butt the tiles will result in a “jog” of the lines between them. The larger the area, the more those lines will run off. By leaving even 1/32 of an inch grout line you will be able to compensate for the difference in tile widths.
You also need grout to ensure that nothing can get between your tiles. Look at it this way: would you rather have a very small grout line filled with grout or a very, very small grout line filled with spaghetti sauce? No matter how tightly you attempt to butt the tiles, there will still be the tiniest space between them. Not grouting them leaves open the possibility of all types of unruly things filling them. Then you have to clean them out risking the possibility of damaging one of the tiles.
The final reason I’ll throw out there is that no matter what substrate you are using there will always be movement. Always. Placing the tiles against each other will eventually damage them. If you continuously rub the edges of two tiles together one or both will eventually chip (and you need to get out of the house more, or at least find another hobby). The expansion and contraction of wood or concrete will do the same thing. Although you can minimize this using different underlayment materials, it will still move.
I hate grout, I really do. If it were up to me I would install most tile and all granite and marble with no grout lines at all. I can’t do it. Even though it will look better initially, eventually it will ruin the tile. The best thing to do is use the smallest grout line your particular tile will allow and get a grout that closely matches the tile. For most granite and marble tile I install I use either 1/32 or 1/16 inch grout lines. In most other tile I will use 1/16 or 1/8 inch lines. I try to use the smallest grout lines the tile will allow.
To figure out how small you can go, place nine tiles in a 3 X 3 foot square butted against each other. Measure corner to corner diagonally both ways and see how close they are. If they are within 1/16 inch that is the size grout line you can use safely.
Please resist the temptation to install your tile without grout. Grout sucks, believe me, I know. By choosing a matching grout, though, you’ll be happier in the end and your tile will last significantly longer.
Update: The photos below were sent in by a reader asking why his tiles were cracking. They are travertine tiles and the cracking is a direct result of having the tiles butted against each other with no grout lines. This is what can happen.
I have just developed a tile that does not need grout .It was a remarkably simple one to develope.
I am at present testing the tile system .So far so good .To give you a clue there is no butting of tiles together.
No water has touched the wall or the floor,and in every test I have accounted for every millilitre of water used. For the technical minded .The test covered high pressure over 10 -15-20 minute period.
Well hi there Peter. I hope you take criticism well.
I will start with one of your last statements – “For the technical minded” – that’s great. Due to that degree in physics I happen to possess I am a bit technically minded so please allow me to help you on your quest.
One of the key components to inventing something specific in a particular industry lies in whether or not there is a need for it or, more specifically, it solves a problem. The fact that tile should not be butted together is not a problem except from an aesthetic standpoint with certain designs. I would imagine that this was a remarkably simple thing to develop – since it already exists. Any tile on the face of the planet *can* be installed without grout – it just shouldn’t be. And no, they do not need to be butted together to be installed without grout. You can install them normally and simply not install grout. If your shower is properly built this is not a problem at all.
I believe where you are a bit confused is the belief that tile and grout are the components that waterproof an installation – they are not. I am reaching this conclusion given your statement “No water has touched the wall or the floor” – that’s great. It sounds to me as if you’ve created a product that may be used in place of an acrylic or fiberglass tub or shower surround where the product itself is the main waterproofing component. If so, outstanding.
If, however, you plan on marketing this as some sort of tile you must understand that whether or not it is waterproof is simply one component of the overall testing and classification of a tile product, in this case the absorption rate of your product or vitreousness of it. This is not measured by subjecting it to ‘high pressure’ over periods of time. It is done by weighing the particular tile, submerging it for 24 hours, then weighing it again. If the two weights are identical you have yourself a vitreous tile. This is a very basic description of one criteria of a tile classification.
Once that particular aspect is determined (should you choose that to be your base criteria) you must then move onto the others – SCOF (Static Coefficient of Friction), Moh’s hardness, Impact strength, Density, Freeze/Thaw capabilities, etc. Once those are determined it needs to be put through a slew of tests to determine the viability and limitations of your particular product in various applications.
Once all this is wrapped up and you market your product be prepared to wait a minimum of ten years before it is a widely accepted product for the application you are attempting to market it for. See, without a time-proven real world application test people like me (professionals) aren’t gonna touch it. I’ve lost count of how many ‘latest and greatest’ products have come to market only to wash out in a couple of years under real world conditions.
I’m not trying to discourage you, simply trying to get you to perhaps redirect your effort toward the appropriate market. As I’ve stated, it sounds like a product that may be a viable alternative to acrylic surrounds, but not tile. I can cut out squares of acrylic, silicone the spaces between them (or put rubber edges on them), and subject them to high pressure for as long as I want – they will be waterproof. But I would be hard-pressed to sell it as a groutless tile. Knowwhatimean?
Good luck to you.
If you have rectified tile, can you tile without a grout line?
kedra
Hi Kendra,
You can, just like you can with any tile, if you choose to do so. You will still have the problems mentioned above with movement and the tiles rubbing. These will not show up immediately, but after doing it for a couple of years it will start to show.
And you will still have very tiny spaces between the tiles which will get larger when your substrate expands. Something may get in your grout line. Then your substrate contracts. Then your tile cracks.
If you want to risk it you can, yes.
Hi Roger,
I am preparing to install slate tile on a large 4-sided fireplace in a Versailles pattern. The largest tile will be 6″x6″. I chose this pattern because i do not want any long lines, it appears more random and since the tile came 6×6 it will take the least amount of cuts. The tile is very natural and varies widely in thickness which will make it very difficult to grout. My first inclination was to butt it tight and not grout, but after reading your opinions I’m not sure now. It sounds as though expansion/contraction will be my biggest concern and slate being relatively soft I was wondering how it will efffect it. My substrate is cement backer board directly on framing.
Hey Jeff,
Installing slate on a fireplace is acceptable without grout. There is rarely the chance of getting things such as spaghetti sauce or shampoo between the tile.
You should still leave a tiny space between each tile for the expansion/contraction issue. Although there will be movement in the framing, cementious backer board is extremely stable and rarely moves. Use playing cards for spacers – that will give you 1/32″ which will allow the movement but not be noticeable.
Thanks Roger, you just made my day with that great news! I owe you a beer.
I have gotten opposing advice when it comes to using a thin set mortar or a pre-mix acrylic mastic. Which would you recomend for my application? And which notch size trowel?
Thanks again,
Jeff
Hey Jeff,
With any type of natural stone you always want to use thinset mortar. Mastic contains organic oils which may react negatively with the slate. I would use either a 1/4 x 1/4 or 3/8 x 3/8″ square notch trowel.
I’m planning on installing Slate 13 X 13 tile around a fireplace should I go with a 1/8 grout or a 1/4 grout? It is a small area. Thanks
Hi Cindy,
I always prefer smaller grout lines in most tile, slate included. I would go with the 1/8″. That said, grout line size is simply a preference more than anything else and with a fireplace you can usually use any size you want since you will not necessarily need a lot of tiles adjacent to one another. If you like the smaller go with that, if you like the larger go with those.
I’m a lot of help, huh?
Roger,
We have already butted together 12 inch porcelain tiles in kitchen and bathroom and tried to grout the seams with a non-sanded grout, all on top of floor adhesive (all of things not to do) but ply board sub-floor is dry, clean and in excellent shape. The edges of the tile allow for a tiny amount of grout but it seems to be flaking off — does not want to stay in the cracks. Removing the tile is NOT an option (again, I am ashamed that I did all of these novice things prior to consulting forums). That said, should I remove the old non-sanded grout and fill in with epoxy grout? What product, if any can I use to seal the floor? I had purchased from HD “SurfaceGuard” a liquid tile sealer. Should I still use that? Please give me any advice you can. I have saved an extra two boxes of tile as I realize that I will be burdened forever with the error of my ways for the life of the floor.
Thanks in advance, and great site here.
Hi Maria – oops.
It seems to me that (currently) your biggest problem is the fact that the grout will not stay in the tile. There are two things that would cause this with a nearly non-existent space in which to place the grout. The first is that you are not getting the grout far enough down into the grout line and it is simply grabbing onto the small bevel or rounded edge of each individual tile. I’m unsure how much a ‘tiny amount of grout’ refers to but if you cannot force non-sanded grout deep enough into the lines to grab onto the SIDE of each tile it will never stay in there – ever.
The other reason I can think of would be movement. Any movement at all – no matter how tiny – will cause what little grout you do get in there to crack and dislodge. This may be movement of the tile you can’t even see – I’m talking about micro-movements. The smallest up and down movement of each tile independently of the one next to it will cause all grout to eventually crack out. The fact that you have almost no grout in there at all simply causes it to show up more quickly.
There is no product you can place over the top of this tile to remedy the situation. I know you know it but it sounds as if you’ve done several things incorrectly, butting the tile being the least of them. You did not specifically say but if you installed the tile directly to the plywood subfloor it is absolutely not going to last. This requires a VERY specific method and in absolutely no way would a regular plywood subfloor be set up for that. Even if you used a backerboard the fact that a ‘floor adhesive’ (I’m assuming mastic or pre-mixed) is another reason it will not last. The fact that you butted them together is only causing problems with the initial grouting. That floor will not last. I’m sorry to be the one telling you what you do not want to hear.
Epoxy grout may solve your grouting problem in that it will not crack out (if you can get enough in there to have a decent depth) but it will not save the floor. Eventually it will all start to crack and come loose. Using epoxy will only cause the actual tiles to crack before the grout cracks. Sorry.
I have some travertine tiles in a Versailles pattern. 16×24, 16×16, 8×16, and 8×8. They are all true size, so when laying out in the Versailles pattern, I will run into trouble if I provide grout joints. For example, there is no way to have tow 8in tiles inline with a 16in tile and have the edges line up. The grout joint between two 8in wide tiles wider than a 16in tile.
That being said, the installation is for exterior use. I don’t really care if dust gets between tiles as the nooks and crannies of the travertine will be full of dust anyway. Is it common or accepted practice to install these stone tiles without grout between the so they layout correctly?
Hi Fredric,
You can install the Versailles pattern outside with no grout lines if you choose to do so. I still don’t recommend it, however. If your substrate is not absolutely flat you will still end up running off your lines as the tile adjusts to the ups and downs.
In the case of the tile you’ve described you can use alternating 1/8″ and 1/16″ grout lines. All the grout lines directly against your largest tile will be 1/8″ and all others will be 1/16″. You still have to cheat your smallest tiles, the 8×8’s, but it works out as long as you keep the lines consistent within each pattern. Your 8×8’s will end up with a grout line somewhere between 1/8″ and 1/16″.
Or you can just do it with no grout lines. If you use a good sealer (and you should) you can get away with no grout lines in that application AS LONG AS you do not live in a climate which freezes like we do here in CO. If you do you absolutely need grout lines since the tile will actually absorb moisture (normal) and freeze (not normal) then crack and bust (abnormal).
Thank you Roger. No freeze/thaw here in Phoenix, so I may go that route. I was thinking of using a thicker thinset with a 1/2″ notched trowel or something to help with the concrete’s imperfections. I already know I need to grind down a couple spots already as the concrete guys did a lousy job.
Thanks again for the response.
Hey Fredric,
I would get a medium-bed mortar for that application. A medium bed will allow you to get as much as 3/4″ or so beneath a tile if it needs it. With a regular thinset and heavy tiles they may actually sink a bit before the thinset cures. A medium-bed will hold it in place.
WOW what a site. I love it. I have been looking for tile information for some time and i got a load of information today.
Still with grout, i have found a 1 by 2 split face stone tile that my wife wants in the kitchen on her back splash. This stone, when laid flat on the surface will have no room for grout. everyone i speak with states it only has to be sealed. I ask about the food splatters and the time it might take to clean it, if you ever could. I have seen it in many areas and it looks great. But how would you grout it so no food stuff could get in between the pieces of the 1 x 2’s. The seal i understand is to protect the surface and maybe fill in the little imperfections in the stone. But will it keep organic material from growing in between?
Thank you
The website is just a site of a new product not associated with tile in anyway, but neat.
Hey Lawrence,
Split-faced stone is an unusual animal. On one hand it is an incredibly awesome looking installation when done correctly and on the other it creates the exact problem you are describing. That is why you rarely see it as a kitchen backsplash.
Grout is out of the question – it’ll never work. About the only choice you have is to use a lot of sealer. You can place enough layers of sealer over it so that it effectively seals the tiny spaces in between as well as the surface. It’ll take a lot.
If you seal it well enough it will prevent stuff from getting between the individual tiles and, in turn, prevent things from growing in there. You do need to seal it really, really well, though.
Roger,
Sorry, but I have a jackassery question. I understand the formula for finding a safe size grout line which you explained to the person wanting to omit grout. However, my questions is this: How does the thickness of grout lines effect the appearance of room size. I have a two small adjoining room (12 x 12 and 12 x 8), which I want to tile the floor with 18 x 18 tiles. I want to use the smallest line of grout, but I’m not how it will affect the appearance of the size of the room. I don’t want to make the rooms appear smaller. Thanks for your help–previous and anticipated.
Marlene
Hi Marlene,
Jackassery is a good thing. It’s my claim to fame! (?)
Unless you have a very, very small room (like 4×4) the grout lines will not significantly affect the look of the room itself. In a very small room I think a large grout line would actually make your room look smaller since the concentration would be on the grout lines themselves. With the size of rooms you’ve described you should be able to do a 1/8″ or even 1/16″ grout line (tile permitting) and it will look fine.
I know it sounds weird but with the bigger tiles a smaller grout line usually makes the room look bigger. Strange but true!
I am having a ventfree gas fireplace installed in my basement. I will be doing the framing and surface work. I have found the most beautifull 12×12 golden wood grain marble tile. I have read your instructions about the grout lines and I want them as thin as possible, however, I also know there will be consiberable expansion and contraction (it IS, after all, a fireplace). I am more concerned about the substrate. I plan to use 2×4 framing, 1/2 inch plywood, and cement board. Would you say this is sufficeint for vertical surface? I’ve received all kinds of crazy advise for the framing. I read your information abut Laticrete’s SpectraLock (hoping I can find this product) what do you suggest is best for securing the tiles to the cement board?
Thanks,
Janet
Hi Janet,
The thing you want to do, especially if you want nearly non-existent grout lines, is eliminate as much movement in the substrate as absolutely possible. The easiest way to do this is eliminate as much wood as you reasonably can.
My question would be: Why the plywood on a vertical surface? I understand the 2×4’s for the base framing but the best thing to do would be to frame it out to within 1/2″ (or whatever thickness of cement board you are using) and simply screw the cement board to the 2×4 framing. Anyplace you would use plywood simply use backerboard instead. It is dimensionally stable and will not be affected by the heat whereas the plywood may. It is actually the glue in the plywood that may or may not be affected by the heat. No real way to tell, however, whether it will or not. Using backerboard in place of the plywood eliminates the guesswork.
You can simply use a good modified thinset for the marble and you should be fine. Depending on the shade of the marble you may want to use a white thinset, the gray may dull it or show through. Unless marble is black or dark gray I always use white thinset on it.
I’m sure you already know but do not use pressure treated lumber for your framing. As the moisture locked into it starts to dissipate over time it may start to twist or change shape – that’s no good.
Spectralock is absolutely an excellent choice for your fireplace. You can check laticrete.com to see if they have a distributor near you or you can always order it online.
If you have any more questions feel free to ask. Much to my wife’s dismay I’m not goin’ anywhere!
Wow! Thanks for the quick reply!…Let me get this straight…I don’t need to use plywood?..(ok, I understand the temp and the glue)..the 1/2 inch cement board screwed to my framing is enough strength?? This will definitely cut the costs a bit, will also change my framing dimensions a bit
can’t do 16″OC. No pressure treated used here. I’m pretty handy around the house but this, for some reason, is causing some anxiety for me. There seems to be a “secret society of fireplace framing installers” (not a whole lot of information out there.)
Thanks Again!
Janet
Hey Janet,
1/2″ cement board is more than enough strength. On vertical surfaces the only strength factor you need to take into consideration (provided you are using a dimensionally stable product such as backerboard) is what is known as ‘sheer strength’.
Think of it like this: if you have your backerboard with tile installed on it and it is standing there vertically gravity pulls on the tile, and in turn, the substrate, equally from top to bottom through one thin line. The backerboard itself, in this instance, is under no real strain at any particular spot. Now if you take that same setup and hang it horizontally upside down (such as it would be on a ceiling with the tile on the bottom of the backerboard) every square inch of that substrate is under strain depending on the weight per square inch of the tile adhered to it. The substrate is supporting every bit of the tile.
In the first instance (vertical application like your fireplace) all the pressure is placed on the less than 1/8″ vertical column of thinset adhering the tile to the substrate. However, it is not the entire weight of the tile either, only a portion of it and it is distributed evenly over a large area. In the horizontal application (ceiling) every square inch is being pulled upon with every ounce of weight of the tile. Sheer strength is rarely a problem with most substrates. Cement backerboard has way, way more than enough.
Now I’ve confused you, huh?
In a vertical application gravity attempts to ‘slide’ the tile off the substrate. In a horizontal application gravity attempts to rip it off of the substrate. Properly installed tile will not ‘slide’. 
Roger – Member in good standing of the SSOFFI (secret society of fireplace framing installers)
Makes perfect sense!!!
Thanks so much!
Janet,RN,SSOFFI (in training)
Absolutely my pleasure, Janet. Umm, you know I expect pictures, right?
“Janet,RN,SSOFFI (in training)” <–HA! You ROCK!
THANKS TO YOUR INFORMATION!!
I love my tile–worked out fab! Not quite finished, of course I will gladly send a finished pic. I have applied for but not yet received my SSOFFI certificate.
Hey Janet,
Your fireplace turned out great! I received the pics and I really like that marble. As long as it is all right with you I am going to post them up here somewhere. As soon as I get all the drunk-ass elves to get busy I have some changes coming up for my site and I’ll have a page for my reader’s tile installations.
Still workin’ on that certificate, too. Drunk elves and all…
Hello, I am thinking of installing a granite tile countertop. While at The Tile Shop, they said the granite tiles could be butted together and the beveled edge filled with a silicone epoxy. Is this a good practice? Would I be better off with a 1/16 grout line? This is for 24×24 granite tiles that will be used on a kitchen counter.
Thanks!
Hi Kristine – welcome to the zoo!
There is no such creature as a ‘silicone epoxy’ of which I am aware. And if it has to do with tile I am fairly aware. Other stuff – not so much. So feel free to go back into your tile shop and ‘splain to them that the bevels are placed there by the manufacturer for two reasons – to prevent the tile edge/corner from chipping and to create a uniform edge for your grout line. They are not placed there for grout.
Your best bet is to use a 1/16″ or 1/32″ grout line and grout with an epoxy grout. I do it all the time. The bevels in the granite are not for grout. Trying to grout them is an exercise in futility. You will end up with a smaller than 1/16″ triangle of grout which will last on a kitchen countertop exactly one day and 32 minutes or so.
It won’t work. If you take your time and get very meticulous about it you can set those tiles with a 1/32″ grout line and grout it with Laticrete’s SpectraLOCK and, if done correctly, it will nearly look like slab. You need your countertops to be perfectly flat – and I do mean perfectly flat.
Hope that helps. Tell the guys at the tile shop I said hi.
Thanks for your quick response. If we decide to do it, I will definitely use grout then. Is there a brand of grout that is better than another if I do the 1/16th grout? Oh and this is the link to the silicone that The Tile Shop encouraged me to use
http://www.tileshop.com/tools_supplies/caulking.aspx
I am glad I asked before taking their word for it. It didn’t seem right to me.
Another question, would it be possible to do an undermount sink with this method? What type of bit does a person use to drill faucet holes through these granite tiles?
Thanks again!
Hey Kristine, I tried to check the link but their site seems to be down. Maybe from the millions of readers clicking on it from here, huh? I’ll check it out when they get the silicone dug out of their servers and report back.
Yes, you can undermount a sink with granite tiles. You would use a diamond bit hole saw made specifically for tile. Just google ‘diamond tile hole saw’ and you’ll get about 32,186,391,849 results (that’s just a ballpark, I’m guessing here).
One of the biggest reasons you do not want to use silicone to ‘grout’ your tile is that silicone, or any type of caulking really, is not meant to be permanent, it needs to be replaced periodically. Once the seal is broken where it is installed it opens the door for all types of extremely nasty things to breed.
Think about the last shower you saw that needed the silicone replaced in the corner of the tub – how many different colors were under it? (Sorry, grossing people out is very effective at getting a point across
) You don’t want that on your kitchen counters.
If you want epoxy grout, which is fairly bulletproof, use Laticrete’s SpectraLOCK. If you just want regular cementious grout you need an unsanded grout for grout lines that small. Any reputable brand will work well. Laticrete makes that, too.
I would use epoxy, it’s durable, stain-proof, and never needs to be sealed – ever. If you use regular grout it needs to be sealed.
EDIT: They just got their website working. They have two types of caulk, just like everyone else, regular silicone and acrylic-based caulk. Neither of which are suitable as a grout replacement.
HI ROGER THANKS FOR MAKING THINGS CLEARER .. WOULD I BE BETTER OFF BUYING A NICHE. OR COULD I FRAME 1 IN AND COVER WITH BACKERBOARD AND SEAL AND TILE . COST IS GETTING TO BE AN ISSUE . THANKS FOR YOU HELP
Hey Ed,
I always prefer to build my own niches. You can make them any size or shape you want, you aren’t limited to where they can be placed, and you can move them up and down and make them smaller or larger to hit grout lines exactly. Making your own is the only way to go as far as I’m concerned.
according t kerdi site the whole floor is mudded and slopped toward the shower .. are you saying i can drop the subfloor 2 ” in the shower area cover the area in the rest of bath with backer board and slope the area in the shower to the drain in the middle of shower . shower walls covered in backer board then coat with hydroban and tile over all???
Exactly. The kerdi site is explaining how to waterproof the entire bathroom floor. As long as you have the door at the edge of the shower you have no need to waterproof the entire floor. As long as everything inside the door you’ll be fine.
thanks for the fast reply roger i went to kerdi site . i did not expect the whole bath floor would have to be covered with mud .. with the floor around the shower stall sloped to the shower .. sounds difficult to me i will more than likely go with a curb.. i am interested in see the step 4 .. i thought a shower would look nicer without a curb and be a little easyer to do .. looks like i was wrong ..
Hey Ed,
I think you misunderstood or, more likely, I didn’t explain it correctly. The entire bath floor does not need to be mudded, only to the outside of the slope if you’re going that route. The shower floor would be mudded, as usual, then a slope would be created out of deck mud. You would simply be replacing the curb with a slope.
If you are, in fact, dropping the floor for the shower you only need to mud the shower floor, just as with a curb, except it will be level because of the drop and not require a curb.
i am planning a bath remodel in the spring and would like to build a shower 3 1/2 ‘ by 5 ‘ with out a curb how would i do the pan ?? I have room to lower the floor joist so the bed and liner would be the same height as the rest of the floor . I plan on using a frameless shower door with no track .. also I plan on using elec radiant floor heat. it is approved for in shower use .Your site is very informative nice for a change ..
Hi Ed,
Some of the underfloor heating elements are approved for use in showers and some are not. You need to check with the particular manufacturer and also check your local codes. Even if manufacturer approved some places will not allow it.
I’m assuming your drain will be in the middle of the shower which means you would need to drop your floor about 2″ – 1 1/4″ for the height of the mud bed at the drain and 3/4″ for the slope up to the walls.
With a curbless shower the best method is a topical waterproofing membrane such as Schluter Kerdi or a liquid such as Laticrete’s Hydroban or Custom’s Redgard. Doing it in this manner eliminates the headache of the two layer bed with the membrane and working it up the slope to the floor – and it is a headache.
Using a topical membrane you can run it up the slope to the floor or beyond without worrying about not making a level transition.
Other than dropping the floor you can also make sort of a ‘hump’ from the bathroom floor up to the outside of the shower and back in. Does that make sense? The top of the hump would be right at the edge of the shower where you would normally place a regular curb. This can be built with deck mud as well. It’s also a less desirable method.
Dropping the floor 2″ and using Schluter Kerdi would be the ideal installation method for what you’re describing. Good luck with it. If you have any more questions I’ll be glad to help.
Roger,
I am building a home in Southern California and would like to have someone inspect the tile work as it is being installed.
Do you know of anyone?
Hi Dan,
I know a few tile contractors down that way but none that really inspect tile work as it is being installed, unless of course they are installing it.
I guess my logical question would be why do you need this? Are you installing this yourself? Because if you are having a contractor installing your tile it sounds to me as if you do not have confidence in them.
If you are doing it yourself you can go to John Bridge’s Tile Forum and describe your project and receive help from other pros as well as myself if I happen to be around. You can also do that if you have a contractor doing the work. Post pictures and describe what is happening and get professional opinions from all over the world! Check that site out and see if that will suffice for what you need.
My contractor just installed 3 X 6 opera glass tiles on my kitchen back splash. He did not allow for any space and set them in thinset butt-joined. I know this is a no-no, but when he began he insisted it would be ok. He said he will still be able to get the grout in the small cracks. I know now that the recommended joint line would be 1/8 (although I’d rather have 1/16th) and now I am thinking about having him rip out the whole thing and do it over with 1/8 spacers. I am afraid there will be expansion, especially around my hot stove, Also if there is movement, the corners of the glass could rub against each other and crack.
What is your opinion? It is worth ripping it all out and doing it over? I don’t mind spending the $ on the tiles, but he is probably going to give me a hard time about the labor. I assume the wall will be damamged and will have to be skim coated after the ripping off of tile. Then there’s all that glass cutting again! Should I just leave it as is? My inclination is not to.
Wow, sorry to hear of the problems. Needless to say the glass tile should not have been installed in this manner. At this point you have two options that I can see.
You can have him take it down and install it with grout lines. 1/16″ would work but 1/8 probably would be better.
Or you can make absolutely certain you get a warranty from him – IN WRITING – stating that if any problems arise with the glass he will be responsible for it. If your installer is that sure of his technique he should have not problem doing that. I would sit down and talk with him and voice your concerns. A reputable installer should have no problem at all with that.
Depending upon which mortar he used your installation may be just fine the way it is. If the installer is confident and willing to say as much in writing then I would go that route. If the installation does fail it can be replaced at that time. If it doesn’t fail then no harm done.
For the record I’m sure he can get it grouted as it is with a good unsanded grout. Make sure he doesn’t use sanded as it will scratch the glass – but I’m sure he knows that.
Hope that helps.
Very informative stuff here but I have a question….even though you said not to install tile without grout….what about something like a fireplace? We currently have a brick fireplace and we bought slacked slate tiles. These slate pieces are already glued/attached somehow together so there is no need to grout between the lines. We bought square slate tiles to match the stacked slate which will go on the bottom part of the fireplace and the sides. I’d really like to butt these up together and not use grout. I realize what you’re saying about the tiles rubbing together but what about a space such as this where there’s not going to be any weight put on the tiles and they really wont even be touched much at all. I plan on sealing all of the tile so that would eliminate most dusts, etc getting in between the tiles. Just wondering if you thought otherwise for a space such as a fireplace?
Hi Erin,
On a fireplace it shouldn’t really be a problem. You aren’t working with food on it (I assume
) and there is not constant moisture which would lead to a mold problem. Since slate is a natural, unpolished rustic look anyway any very minor chips that may eventually happen will never be noticed. You should be just fine doing that with slate on your fireplace.
Thank you! nope, no food will be prepared on the tiles.
Thanks L.T.! See, we’re really amiable people – seriously. Well, most of us . . .
Tileguy, like Roger said, come on the John Bridge Tile Forum and join the crowd. All it is -is- a bunch of tile fanatics that have one thing in common – tile. I urge you to stick around at least for a month and share your opinions, ideas and photos w/the rest of us. My screen name on there is Kilauea (most active volcano) and Id love to hear from ya! I’m very curious on how 766 in 365 was accomplished. If you are really serious about what you’re talkin about and “centuries” of experience, then you should have no problem around a bunch of your fellow tilesetters who might have set a little…..Nice web site, Roger!
Dude I have never had a problem with an install. I did 766 bathrooms last year for Avalon Bay Communities alone. Think what you want. Talk to your blogging buddies all you want. I am talking from experience. I do not need someone elses opinion. I take it you never ripped out a tile? What is the first thing you do? Remove the grout around the tile so when you hammer the tile it does not transfer the blow to the entire floor. Grout is why this happens so hence instead of just trying to smash one tile the hammer blow is actually going through the entire floor. Its like saying that a tile is strong but yet you can put it on the ground with no thinset and stand on it and it may break in half. It is not strong until bonded and then even stronger once grouted. ESPECIALLY SMALL MOSAICS. If you do not use a kneeling board over small moasics they can pop easily until grouted.
Happy Tiling……
Okay, “Dude”
but thanks. It is quite apparent you do not need anyone else’s opinion, your way is perfect.
I’m glad you’ve never had a problem. I have to say that is extremely impressive! I do not have “blogging buddies”
Yeah, I’ve never ripped out a tile.
The problem is you come onto my blog and start making absolute statements without proof of anything. I did, in fact, go to the Marble Institute’s website – even they suggest grout lines.
I am curious about someone that claims to install everything on mud and holds these views. If you set your installs on mud and need grout to “lock it all in” I would be worried, but hey, that’s me. Do what works for you but please, in the future, if you would like to state something as an absolute please back it up with a third-party source. Anything I post on my blog can be double checked in numerous places including the Tile Council of North America (TCNA) Installation Standards Handbook. I will be more than happy to post links to any standards anyone wants.
Erroneous information such as what you’ve posted is exactly why I started this blog – thank you for proving it was not a waste of time. As I’ve stated in many of my posts – just because someone has installed something for years i.e. “I’ve been doing it that way for 20 years” does not make it correct.
I invite you to join the forum and be open minded enough to learn the current standards. Without constant learning the profession stagnates – this is exactly what I’m talking about.
Thank you for your comments. Sorry I pissed you off.
By the way I am not slamming anybody just simply telling you my experience. An ungrouted tile does not have the compressive strength of a grouted tile and that is a fact. Cement is strong. Cement = grout.
Also, I have never seen a damaged marble installation due to butt joints. I do marble at least 3 times a week.
You need to read specifications for installation. I have a tile company and have been installing tile for 25 years and my family has been installing for 40 years before me. Grout is essential to give an installation strength. I am not sure where your getting your info. A floor without grout is just single tiles. When hit with an impact the tiles have room to spread out and shatter regardless of how well they are bonded. When grouted the tiles are locked together and will only chip rather than shatter. I have dont hundreds of rip outs on single tiles and entire floors. An ungrouted tile comes out with ease regardless of the installation. I install everything on MUD. By the way you can go the Marble Institute of America website and learn that marble with beveled edges can be butted provided that they tiles are perfectly sized which they most always are. Your simply incorrect in your opinion.
I get my specifications from four little letters – TCNA. It is apparent to me, in that case, that you have been installing for 25 years incorrectly. As I replied to a previous commenter, the only grout that adds any type of stability to an installation, other than epoxy, is the method of portland grout common up to the early 80’s. That is 100 percent portland, period. Are you wet-setting over mud? If so, and you are using the portland as grout, I understand, you’re correct. But I doubt that.
Please don’t take my word for it, I posted your comment on the link above and received four of the same basic replies within about ten minutes. Please feel free to sign on in and make your case. These people are easily the most informed and well trained tile mechanics in the country – get their opinion.
Polished marble can be butted without worry of damage. The reason for the beveled edge is to create a grout line. The grout absolutely adds most of the strength and integrity to a tile installation. Without grout the floor is not strong at all. Try taking a hammer to a tile floor that is grouted and then do the same to an ungrouted floor. The grouted tile will chip where the ungrouted tile wll shatter. The strenght of a tile floor comes from the grout locking it all together.
I would like to take a moment to point out that the comments left here are solely the opinion of the person who left it. I do not agree with censorship so I chose to leave them. Please realize they are strictly that – opinions.
Tileguy,
First I would love to know your credentials and how long you’ve been “professionally’ installing tile and marble, if you indeed do.
Of course marble can be butted. But as for the second half of that sentence I disagree. It will become damaged. What substrate are you installing the marble on? The one that never moves and won’t damage the marble? Marble is, in fact, one of the softest stones and becomes more damaged with less movement.
The beveled edge is not to create a grout line. It is to keep the marble from chipping. A 90 degree angle chips much more easily than a 45, which is what the bevel is. While fabricating the marble tiles they would be chipped to hell without that bevel. It evens the edges. It is not to create a 1/16 by 1/16 inch triangular grout line, which would last about ten minutes.
Grout adds absolutely no significant structural integrity to a tile installation – at all! If your floor is not strong without grout it is incorrectly installed – period. The floor is as strong as it will be before you grout it. If your tile shatters it does not have full coverage and will fail anyway. I hope you do not count on grout adding stability to your customer’s floors.
And lastly – Grout, unless it is epoxy, does not “lock it all together”. It locks nothing together. It fills the grout lines – THAT’S IT! Please do not rely on grout in any form to make up for a substandard installation – ever.
Thank you for your comments “Tileguy”, but I respectfully disagree with just about everything in your comment. Please do not attempt to spread misinformation here, in case you missed it I do reply to every comment. I honestly hope that if you are in the tile installation trade that you take time, spend money, and perhaps learn the ins and outs as well as reasons for current standards before you attempt to give advice as an expert. Given your statements in your comment I have to say it is quite obvious to TRAINED PROFESSIONALS that you are not. Please don’t attempt to slam someone else’s information if you don’t know them or what the actual standard are.
EDIT: In fact I even did all the work for you, here’s the link where you can see all the other pro’s comments. http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=819801#post819801 Enjoy! 
If you happen to disagree with me there are several tile forums on line with professional installers, please feel free to post up your comments there and see the reaction you receive. Try John Bridge’s forum They are, in my opinion, the best but feel free to try any of them. At least on John’s site you won’t get flamed nearly as badly. Once again, thank you for your comments. Even erroneous information gives me another chance to explain why it is erroneous.
Roger,
The quick answers you give to your blog questions are a little misleading. I think when most people refer to butting tile, they mean with a tiny joint. As you pointed out, stone is best set with the smallest of grout joints, but tile, such as porcelain or ceramic varries dramatically in style and use. You should mention how the shape of the tile and the style will guide the size of the joint, not only the maintenance.
You say that tile is by no means maintenance free, however as compared to other sufraces, if installed correctly, it should be one of the most maintenance free and long lasting surfaces available.
Hello Dan,
The quick answers are for the quick readers. I don’t believe my answers are misleading at all. I think when most people refer to butting tile they mean placing one tile directly against the next. If they are in fact referring to a tiny joint you may notice at the end of my third paragraph I directly referred to that when I wrote “By leaving even 1/32 of an inch grout line you will be able to compensate for the difference in tile widths.”
My last three paragraphs also refer directly to the differences in tile sizes and even how to address them to determine how small a grout line is feasible for any particular tile.
Tile is one of the most maintenance-free floor coverings, I said nothing otherwise. I want people to realize that it still requires maintenance which is entirely dependant upon the type of tile rather than the grout joint sizes.
But you need to have a grout joint and you cannot butt tiles to one another and expect it to last. I don’t believe anything is misleading about that at all. Do you disagree?
Thank you! This is the first time i’ve heard the explanation of grout explained this way. Very informative. I don’t like grout either. Now I will use the smallest spacers I can for my tile and match the grout as close as possible. Thanks again.
Hi there Lakeisha,
You’re very welcome, glad I could help. If there is anything else you have questions about just let me know.